7 ms·

School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

103 points by kefeizhou 15y ago

creativeembassy 15y ago
Great article. Not really hacker news-worthy though, is it?
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- BrandonM 15y ago
  I think the superintendent's letter qualifies as something of a clever hack.
- tokenadult 15y ago
  Paul Graham, the site founder, has a great interest in education policy, if his essays http://paulgraham.com/articles.html http://paulgraham.com/articles.html are any guide to his interests.
kylemaxwell 15y ago
Not at all what I expected when I saw the title. And I tend to think that spending that amount per student now would result in a future with (a) less prisoners, (b) citizens with the tools to really improve themselves and the world around them, and (c) taxpayers able to pay more.
- jonprins 15y ago
  Indeed. Spending more per prisoner than per student (even when you divide by three, considering students spend ~8 hours a day at school) strikes me as pretty backward. When you spend money, you're investing it. So Michigan is investing nearly twice as much money per prisoner ((40k / 3) / 7k). Which is a better investment: keeping bad people out of society /now/, or educating the future generations to keep them from being a bad person? I won't argue that the first one shouldn't happen. But should we really be investing more in the short term than in the long term? Especially when the only benefits in the short term are a society that feels (and might be) safer along with enriched privately run prisons and their employees, and along the long term is a sustainable and expanding economy based on, you know, not imprisoning people.
  - derobert 15y ago
    They also spend roughly half the year at school (remember weekends, holidays, summer), so you should divide by six. So, you're now at less per prisoner than per child. Not that this strikes me as a valid comparison; makes more sense to me that the cost of each should be compared to its own benefits, and to the costs of additional taxation.
TomOfTTB 15y ago
First I agree the cost Michigan pays per prisoner is too high. Texas manages to get by at $13,000 per prisoner Michigan shouldn't need $40,000. But that's for all the expenses to keep them alive (room, board, medical, etc...). So the comparison isn't an accurate one. But let me ask this: Michigan is a state where the average teacher makes $57,958 per year BEFORE benefits (http://www.teacher-world.com/teacher-salary/michigan.html http://www.teacher-world.com/teacher-salary/michigan.html). Benefits that include a lifetime pension after retirement. This is in a state with a median income of $44,627 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan) Yet they rank 30th in education: http://tinyurl.com/5wwq8ep http://tinyurl.com/5wwq8ep. I'm not saying teacher's shouldn't be well paid. If they were making 10% over the median income I would have no complaints. But they're well above that and that, as much as the prisons, is why the schools in Michigan have no money.
- ChrisLTD 15y ago
  If having good teachers is a priority, then teachers should earn whatever is required to lure qualified people away from private-sector employment.
  - protomyth 15y ago
    Public sector teachers make more than private sector teachers. http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_075.asp http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_075.asp
    - dhume 15y ago
      Ever wonder why the private school teachers are content with their lower salary? Public sector teachers have to deal with all of the problematic students that private schools can remove or refuse to admit in the first place.
      - protomyth 15y ago
        I would imagine some of it is lower bureaucracy and a bit more freedom. Problematic students exist in private schools and are often backed by serious money. I wouldn't make the generalization that behavior problems are only found in poor people.
latch 15y ago
Kudos to the superintendent for doing his job. Whatever validity you think his point has, there's no doubt he'll get a lot of attention thanks to the clever way he's approached the problem. I'm one of those people that, whenever they hear about economic problems, always thinks individuals are responsible. I want to know, am I wrong? Nowhere does it say you need a house with a spare bedroom and a bathroom for each person. You aren't entitled to a car, let alone two. It isn't some birthright that you go on vacation or buy a flat screen through credit. Education is important. It's also expensive and difficult. Why aren't parents more on the hook? Yes, some parents really, really can't. But most could. It might take substantial life style changes, but the amount of money an average westerner can free up is staggering. I know michigan is particularly hard hit, so this might not be the most sympathetic example to ask, but I just can't help feeling this way. (and that doesn't change the fact that I think the superintended did a great job, whether I think it's the states problem or not).
- nkassis 15y ago
  Most parent that can already do send their kids to private school. But we have to admit that public schools often get the short end of the stick in most state budget discussions. Even if parents contribute more (taxes) it ends up not being used properly. Also, the bigger the house usually means the more taxes you pay to the school board ;p
  - matwood 15y ago
    it ends up not being used properly Here is the key. Plenty of school districts get tons of money yet it never reaches the students. The money ends up stuck somewhere in the administration. Where I grew up the public school district took tax money and built a huge administration building on prime real estate in the cities posh downtown area. This all was while textbooks were falling apart, school buildings were falling down and there was a already a working administration building in a different part of the city. The new building was dubbed the 'Taj Mahal' by local media and it's still a joke.
  - rapind 15y ago
    As an example of improper use, google: tenure public schools
william42 15y ago
Worst title ever? Possibly.
protomyth 15y ago
"Education funding is being slashed left and right" - uhm no - most states aren't getting the increases they want. The University of Minnesota loves to use this tactic in press releases that their funding was cut, when actually, their increase in funding was cut. I hate politics for the acceptance of lies as standard practice.
- bmj 15y ago
  Pennsylvania's state budget is currently proposing a $1 billion cut to the education budget. http://www.paschoolfunding.org/2011/05/2011-2012-budget-update/ http://www.paschoolfunding.org/2011/05/2011-2012-budget-upda... And this isn't about not getting increases--program funding is getting rolled back, and some program funding is getting cut entirely.
- skimbrel 15y ago
  The University of California and California State University are facing a one billion (yes, that's billion with a b) dollar cut from their EXISTING level of state funding. That is not a lie. That is education funding being slashed. http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/pdf/Revised/BudgetSummary/HigherEducation.pdf http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/pdf/Revised/BudgetSummary/HigherEd...
- run4yourlives 15y ago
  To be fair, if enrollment is increasing and funding is flat, the effect is a decrease in funding. From what I can gather, most areas have a per-student funding model so this doesn't mean your statement is incorrect, but it's a little more complicated than being the black to the university's white.
  - protomyth 15y ago
    I did say most. The number of students is not increasing at a rate that would mess put the per student in most parts of the US. http://nces.ed.gov http://nces.ed.gov has a lot of the actual numbers as opposed to partisan websites on either side. PS: I am still trying to find a good source for # of non-teaching staff to teaching staff ratios. I get the feeling it has changed heavily in the last 30 years.
Dove 15y ago
If children were fully the state's responsibility the way prisoners are, I'm sure they would have those things and more.
zandorg 15y ago
I wrote a novel (titled Alcatraz: The College Years) in 2004 where in an imaginary version of 1985, a group of kids in a troubled school get sent to Alcatraz (which in the story has been refurbished like a comfortable prison). I was told the story was unlikely to happen...
johngalt 15y ago
Ok now lets see what private schools are paid per student and compare outcomes.
- johngalt 15y ago
  Hmm... interesting, it appears that average private school tuition is over $3000 less than the average public school expenditure per pupil and there are better student teacher ratios. Wonder why he's not asking to be turned into a private school? Also it appears that public school spending has only gone up over the long term. How about a "thank you for the most funding in 100 years" letter from this administrator? Or perhaps a "I'm sorry we continue to fail at educating despite record funding levels" letter. No? Oh well I guess he decided to go with "We babysit for 7 hours a day and get three months off, but we should be funded the same as institutions that provide 24x7x365 care of violent adults." edit: As some of the article commenters have pointed out: 40,000/365/24 = $4.57 per hour 7,000/180/7 = $5.55 per hour Schools already get paid more per person/hour even using his own numbers. http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_182.asp http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_182.asp http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_059.asp http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_059.asp

103 points by kefeizhou 15y ago

creativeembassy 15y ago

Great article. Not really hacker news-worthy though, is it?

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
BrandonM 15y ago
I think the superintendent's letter qualifies as something of a clever hack.
tokenadult 15y ago
Paul Graham, the site founder, has a great interest in education policy, if his essays http://paulgraham.com/articles.html http://paulgraham.com/articles.html are any guide to his interests.

kylemaxwell 15y ago

Not at all what I expected when I saw the title. And I tend to think that spending that amount per student now would result in a future with (a) less prisoners, (b) citizens with the tools to really improve themselves and the world around them, and (c) taxpayers able to pay more.

jonprins 15y ago
Indeed. Spending more per prisoner than per student (even when you divide by three, considering students spend ~8 hours a day at school) strikes me as pretty backward. When you spend money, you're investing it. So Michigan is investing nearly twice as much money per prisoner ((40k / 3) / 7k). Which is a better investment: keeping bad people out of society /now/, or educating the future generations to keep them from being a bad person? I won't argue that the first one shouldn't happen. But should we really be investing more in the short term than in the long term? Especially when the only benefits in the short term are a society that feels (and might be) safer along with enriched privately run prisons and their employees, and along the long term is a sustainable and expanding economy based on, you know, not imprisoning people.
- derobert 15y ago
  They also spend roughly half the year at school (remember weekends, holidays, summer), so you should divide by six. So, you're now at less per prisoner than per child. Not that this strikes me as a valid comparison; makes more sense to me that the cost of each should be compared to its own benefits, and to the costs of additional taxation.

TomOfTTB 15y ago

First I agree the cost Michigan pays per prisoner is too high. Texas manages to get by at $13,000 per prisoner Michigan shouldn't need $40,000. But that's for all the expenses to keep them alive (room, board, medical, etc...). So the comparison isn't an accurate one. But let me ask this: Michigan is a state where the average teacher makes $57,958 per year BEFORE benefits (http://www.teacher-world.com/teacher-salary/michigan.html http://www.teacher-world.com/teacher-salary/michigan.html). Benefits that include a lifetime pension after retirement. This is in a state with a median income of $44,627 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan) Yet they rank 30th in education: http://tinyurl.com/5wwq8ep http://tinyurl.com/5wwq8ep. I'm not saying teacher's shouldn't be well paid. If they were making 10% over the median income I would have no complaints. But they're well above that and that, as much as the prisons, is why the schools in Michigan have no money.

ChrisLTD 15y ago
If having good teachers is a priority, then teachers should earn whatever is required to lure qualified people away from private-sector employment.
- protomyth 15y ago
  Public sector teachers make more than private sector teachers. http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_075.asp http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_075.asp
  - dhume 15y ago
    Ever wonder why the private school teachers are content with their lower salary? Public sector teachers have to deal with all of the problematic students that private schools can remove or refuse to admit in the first place.
    - protomyth 15y ago
      I would imagine some of it is lower bureaucracy and a bit more freedom. Problematic students exist in private schools and are often backed by serious money. I wouldn't make the generalization that behavior problems are only found in poor people.

latch 15y ago

Kudos to the superintendent for doing his job. Whatever validity you think his point has, there's no doubt he'll get a lot of attention thanks to the clever way he's approached the problem. I'm one of those people that, whenever they hear about economic problems, always thinks individuals are responsible. I want to know, am I wrong? Nowhere does it say you need a house with a spare bedroom and a bathroom for each person. You aren't entitled to a car, let alone two. It isn't some birthright that you go on vacation or buy a flat screen through credit. Education is important. It's also expensive and difficult. Why aren't parents more on the hook? Yes, some parents really, really can't. But most could. It might take substantial life style changes, but the amount of money an average westerner can free up is staggering. I know michigan is particularly hard hit, so this might not be the most sympathetic example to ask, but I just can't help feeling this way. (and that doesn't change the fact that I think the superintended did a great job, whether I think it's the states problem or not).

nkassis 15y ago
Most parent that can already do send their kids to private school. But we have to admit that public schools often get the short end of the stick in most state budget discussions. Even if parents contribute more (taxes) it ends up not being used properly. Also, the bigger the house usually means the more taxes you pay to the school board ;p
- matwood 15y ago
  it ends up not being used properly Here is the key. Plenty of school districts get tons of money yet it never reaches the students. The money ends up stuck somewhere in the administration. Where I grew up the public school district took tax money and built a huge administration building on prime real estate in the cities posh downtown area. This all was while textbooks were falling apart, school buildings were falling down and there was a already a working administration building in a different part of the city. The new building was dubbed the 'Taj Mahal' by local media and it's still a joke.
- rapind 15y ago
  As an example of improper use, google: tenure public schools

william42 15y ago

Worst title ever? Possibly.

protomyth 15y ago

"Education funding is being slashed left and right" - uhm no - most states aren't getting the increases they want. The University of Minnesota loves to use this tactic in press releases that their funding was cut, when actually, their increase in funding was cut. I hate politics for the acceptance of lies as standard practice.

bmj 15y ago
Pennsylvania's state budget is currently proposing a $1 billion cut to the education budget. http://www.paschoolfunding.org/2011/05/2011-2012-budget-update/ http://www.paschoolfunding.org/2011/05/2011-2012-budget-upda... And this isn't about not getting increases--program funding is getting rolled back, and some program funding is getting cut entirely.
skimbrel 15y ago
The University of California and California State University are facing a one billion (yes, that's billion with a b) dollar cut from their EXISTING level of state funding. That is not a lie. That is education funding being slashed. http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/pdf/Revised/BudgetSummary/HigherEducation.pdf http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/pdf/Revised/BudgetSummary/HigherEd...
run4yourlives 15y ago
To be fair, if enrollment is increasing and funding is flat, the effect is a decrease in funding. From what I can gather, most areas have a per-student funding model so this doesn't mean your statement is incorrect, but it's a little more complicated than being the black to the university's white.
- protomyth 15y ago
  I did say most. The number of students is not increasing at a rate that would mess put the per student in most parts of the US. http://nces.ed.gov http://nces.ed.gov has a lot of the actual numbers as opposed to partisan websites on either side. PS: I am still trying to find a good source for # of non-teaching staff to teaching staff ratios. I get the feeling it has changed heavily in the last 30 years.

Dove 15y ago

If children were fully the state's responsibility the way prisoners are, I'm sure they would have those things and more.

zandorg 15y ago

I wrote a novel (titled Alcatraz: The College Years) in 2004 where in an imaginary version of 1985, a group of kids in a troubled school get sent to Alcatraz (which in the story has been refurbished like a comfortable prison). I was told the story was unlikely to happen...

johngalt 15y ago

Ok now lets see what private schools are paid per student and compare outcomes.

johngalt 15y ago
Hmm... interesting, it appears that average private school tuition is over $3000 less than the average public school expenditure per pupil and there are better student teacher ratios. Wonder why he's not asking to be turned into a private school? Also it appears that public school spending has only gone up over the long term. How about a "thank you for the most funding in 100 years" letter from this administrator? Or perhaps a "I'm sorry we continue to fail at educating despite record funding levels" letter. No? Oh well I guess he decided to go with "We babysit for 7 hours a day and get three months off, but we should be funded the same as institutions that provide 24x7x365 care of violent adults." edit: As some of the article commenters have pointed out: 40,000/365/24 = $4.57 per hour 7,000/180/7 = $5.55 per hour Schools already get paid more per person/hour even using his own numbers. http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_182.asp http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_182.asp http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_059.asp http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_059.asp