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Ageism in tech is very real and every software engineer needs to plan for it in their careers. Simply look around any tech center company and look around. It’s

Ageism in tech is very real and every software engineer needs to plan for it in their careers. Simply look around any tech center company and look around. It’s mostly younger crowd. The graybeards are few and far between and in mostly few senior roles. Even transferring to middle management doesn’t help much. The same type of younger crowd are brought in to keep up the appearances. The olds are few and far between in director and up roles. It’s simple reality that happens, there’s an age cutoff, and it’s not as old as people think. It’s definitely not the official retirement age. Keeping up with latest tech stack helps. Moving up the seniority levels helps. Moving from company to company helps. Entrepreneurship helps, you as owner can hire yourself, but you’ll most likely hire younger people for your company, which perpetuates the ageism cycle.

wil421 6y ago
I think this only applies to start ups. However, if you aren’t keeping up with current trends you’ll be left behind. There are plenty of large corporations with older .NET or Java devs.
- beauzero 6y ago
  ...and US state governments.
  - wil421 6y ago
    Yes, I was going to add there are tons of older engineers keeping legacy stuff alive until retirement.
- IshKebab 6y ago
  I think it only applies to US startups. I've seen no sign of ageism in the two UK startups I've worked for.
that_guy_iain 6y ago
> Ageism in tech is very real and every software engineer needs to plan for it in their careers. There seems to be a growing not-a-joke joke of waiting to age out of tech and start their next career as the thing they actually want to do.
- datavirtue 6y ago
  Eyeing a farm and full-time pottery here. Retiring ASAP. Employers are dwindling if you want to work somewhere that isn't supporting war criminals (directly and indirectly) or who are generally just too fucked up for a sane rational thinking person to stomach coming in every day. I'm on a great gig now but I'm planning for a not so wealthy retirement. Being free to think is my priority. Sundry corporations want the opposite, no matter what they say.
ardy42 6y ago
> Simply look around any tech center company and look around. It’s mostly younger crowd. The graybeards are few and far between and in mostly few senior roles. > Even transferring to middle management doesn’t help much. The same type of younger crowd are brought in to keep up the appearances. The olds are few and far between in director and up roles. I think you have to be more specific. I could totally believe that WRT to SV tech startups and other younger companies, but they often seemed focused on fashion and in some cases be places where only the young and stupid would be willing to work. There are "tech-centered companies that" are different. For instance I work at a company that's basically evolved to be a tech company, and if anything, our development groups skew old. Personally, I'm still worried more about outsourcing than ageism.
- datavirtue 6y ago
  I know of a contracting firm that is made up of all senior developers. The rate is very high but people pay it. Many corps laid off FTEs and kept the grizzled old contractors during the pandemic. There is too much work to be done and wrangling young devs to get it done is a nightmare. The greybeards can slot in and start contributing immediately (limited as they come up to speed of course) while new devs (less than ten years) may not have enough previous experience to see a new framework and understand it's scope and what can or should be expected from it.
hansvm 6y ago
Is there really widespread ageism, or can that be explained by there being 6x more programmers now that 20yrs ago, by the high pay allowing early retirement for those who want it, and by people with more experience self selecting away from "opportunities" which might succeed in attracting new grads who don't know their worth? Not to say that specific instances of ageism don't exist or aren't a problem, but in the context of "planning for it in my career" I haven't seen evidence that would make malice more likely than other factors for tech's age distribution. Does that evidence exist?
- burnthrow 6y ago
  Nobody said it's malicious. In this industry, every year of experience has diminishing real returns. That is to say, I'm embarrassed by my relative effectiveness many years ago as a new dev. It was mostly thanks to defaulting to the latest and greatest tools. The bits of wisdom and trickery accumulated over the years certainly help, but they don't really move the needle in a way that would justify substantially higher pay, or consideration over younger, less jaded/burned out candidates. The industry's most commonly used CS knowledge can easily be acquired in a year. Overall it's a pretty lousy line of work, but it beats being an Uber/Instacart serf... what a world.
  - darkwater 6y ago
    I don't relate, or I'm not fully understanding your point. In my opinion, experience in the tech world helps leveling with more gifted brains. There might be a complicated concept that a brilliant brain will master immediately or after 1/2/5 years while a good-enough but not-so-brilliant brain will need 5/10/20 years to master it. So, since not every company is FAANG that can appeal to and are constantly looking for those brilliant brains, there are many companies in which experience will help you to improve your position and salary.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
mech422 6y ago
>>Keeping up with latest tech stack helps. Moving up the seniority levels helps. Moving from company to company helps. I think this is the key. I'm over 50, and never had any issues with ageism (or none that I'm aware of). I took a new position in Nov. and was lucky enough to be able to pick and choose, as there is a shortage of people that can do the work. If you're more expensive then average, you have to have skills that pay better then average. If your competing against recent grads with much lower cost, you have to be able to show the value in paying you more. I suspect as techies, we just assumed the "20% raise at each new position" would continue forever. Now we have to work harder to show why we're worth the additional cost.
jenkstom 6y ago
Part of it is that us old greybeards have been around long enough to see what works and what doesn't. IT is more "cult"ish than most industries. There are long-held destructive beliefs that cause projects to fail or other problems. For example... RESTful APIs. If you're building a single-page web app then it's probably going to work really well for you. If you're replacing a B2B api that "does something", you're gonna have a bad time.
- cudgy 6y ago
  Are REST api’s poor because of the granularity of the interface making it too chatty? I’m curious to hear your experience.

wil421 6y ago

I think this only applies to start ups. However, if you aren’t keeping up with current trends you’ll be left behind. There are plenty of large corporations with older .NET or Java devs.

beauzero 6y ago
...and US state governments.
- wil421 6y ago
  Yes, I was going to add there are tons of older engineers keeping legacy stuff alive until retirement.
IshKebab 6y ago
I think it only applies to US startups. I've seen no sign of ageism in the two UK startups I've worked for.

that_guy_iain 6y ago

> Ageism in tech is very real and every software engineer needs to plan for it in their careers. There seems to be a growing not-a-joke joke of waiting to age out of tech and start their next career as the thing they actually want to do.

datavirtue 6y ago
Eyeing a farm and full-time pottery here. Retiring ASAP. Employers are dwindling if you want to work somewhere that isn't supporting war criminals (directly and indirectly) or who are generally just too fucked up for a sane rational thinking person to stomach coming in every day. I'm on a great gig now but I'm planning for a not so wealthy retirement. Being free to think is my priority. Sundry corporations want the opposite, no matter what they say.

ardy42 6y ago

> Simply look around any tech center company and look around. It’s mostly younger crowd. The graybeards are few and far between and in mostly few senior roles. > Even transferring to middle management doesn’t help much. The same type of younger crowd are brought in to keep up the appearances. The olds are few and far between in director and up roles. I think you have to be more specific. I could totally believe that WRT to SV tech startups and other younger companies, but they often seemed focused on fashion and in some cases be places where only the young and stupid would be willing to work. There are "tech-centered companies that" are different. For instance I work at a company that's basically evolved to be a tech company, and if anything, our development groups skew old. Personally, I'm still worried more about outsourcing than ageism.

datavirtue 6y ago
I know of a contracting firm that is made up of all senior developers. The rate is very high but people pay it. Many corps laid off FTEs and kept the grizzled old contractors during the pandemic. There is too much work to be done and wrangling young devs to get it done is a nightmare. The greybeards can slot in and start contributing immediately (limited as they come up to speed of course) while new devs (less than ten years) may not have enough previous experience to see a new framework and understand it's scope and what can or should be expected from it.

hansvm 6y ago

Is there really widespread ageism, or can that be explained by there being 6x more programmers now that 20yrs ago, by the high pay allowing early retirement for those who want it, and by people with more experience self selecting away from "opportunities" which might succeed in attracting new grads who don't know their worth? Not to say that specific instances of ageism don't exist or aren't a problem, but in the context of "planning for it in my career" I haven't seen evidence that would make malice more likely than other factors for tech's age distribution. Does that evidence exist?

burnthrow 6y ago
Nobody said it's malicious. In this industry, every year of experience has diminishing real returns. That is to say, I'm embarrassed by my relative effectiveness many years ago as a new dev. It was mostly thanks to defaulting to the latest and greatest tools. The bits of wisdom and trickery accumulated over the years certainly help, but they don't really move the needle in a way that would justify substantially higher pay, or consideration over younger, less jaded/burned out candidates. The industry's most commonly used CS knowledge can easily be acquired in a year. Overall it's a pretty lousy line of work, but it beats being an Uber/Instacart serf... what a world.
- darkwater 6y ago
  I don't relate, or I'm not fully understanding your point. In my opinion, experience in the tech world helps leveling with more gifted brains. There might be a complicated concept that a brilliant brain will master immediately or after 1/2/5 years while a good-enough but not-so-brilliant brain will need 5/10/20 years to master it. So, since not every company is FAANG that can appeal to and are constantly looking for those brilliant brains, there are many companies in which experience will help you to improve your position and salary.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]

mech422 6y ago

>>Keeping up with latest tech stack helps. Moving up the seniority levels helps. Moving from company to company helps. I think this is the key. I'm over 50, and never had any issues with ageism (or none that I'm aware of). I took a new position in Nov. and was lucky enough to be able to pick and choose, as there is a shortage of people that can do the work. If you're more expensive then average, you have to have skills that pay better then average. If your competing against recent grads with much lower cost, you have to be able to show the value in paying you more. I suspect as techies, we just assumed the "20% raise at each new position" would continue forever. Now we have to work harder to show why we're worth the additional cost.

jenkstom 6y ago

Part of it is that us old greybeards have been around long enough to see what works and what doesn't. IT is more "cult"ish than most industries. There are long-held destructive beliefs that cause projects to fail or other problems. For example... RESTful APIs. If you're building a single-page web app then it's probably going to work really well for you. If you're replacing a B2B api that "does something", you're gonna have a bad time.

cudgy 6y ago
Are REST api’s poor because of the granularity of the interface making it too chatty? I’m curious to hear your experience.