7 ms·

Lalboard – A 3D-printed keyboard inspired by the DataHand

94 points by bo0tzz 6y ago

cies 6y ago
If the maker read this... How long did it take you to complete this very cool/useful project? What approaches did you try that did not work out? How long would you say it would take you to make an extra pair? (trying to find out how many weekends I should block)
- JesusFreke 6y ago
  It was a matter of many months, although not 100% all the time on it. I started with trying different designs for a single "down" key mechanism, then just kept broadening the scope - creating a single "cluster" of 5 keys and doing a little proof of concept with the electronics on it. Figuring out the thumb mechanisms.. figuring out the handrest, and the adjustable cluster mounting mechanisms, etc. I wouldn't say there was any particular "failed approach" per say, just a lot of little failed design details along the way, that were changed/improved over the course of the design. It would probably take me about 40 hours (of me time - not including 3d printing, etc.) to make one from scratch at this point. For someone trying to figure it out for the first time, I would double or triple that at least. But once I finish some design tweaks I've been working on, which include some actual fabbed pcbs, it shouldn't be as bad.
blackrock 6y ago
I wonder if anyone can invent a 1-handed keyboard?
- lionkor 6y ago
  It would be pretty easy with a keyboard like this - just add a key that, while held, activates a seperate layout.
  - aysterberi 6y ago
    Kind of like this: http://matias.ca/halfkeyboard/ http://matias.ca/halfkeyboard/
  - DanBC 6y ago
    You used to be able to get software versions but Matthias was enforcing its patent. http://blog.monstuff.com/archives/000021.html http://blog.monstuff.com/archives/000021.html https://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3067497 https://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3067497
- lucioperca 6y ago
  https://www.maltron.com/store/p19/Maltron_Single_Hand_Keyboards_-_US_English.html https://www.maltron.com/store/p19/Maltron_Single_Hand_Keyboa...
  - blackrock 6y ago
    Hmm. Not exactly what I had in mind. What a monstrosity this thing is. They claim you can type up to 85 wpm. I might be able to type faster. I assume that if you’re right-handed, then you’ll use your mouse on your right hand. So you would need the left-handed version of this keyboard. Anyone here ever use it before? Any feedback?
    - dahx4Eev 6y ago
      Not exactly the same but this might solve your problem. I am adding a trackball to my dactyl manuform mini so I don’t need to switch between the keyboard and the mouse on my right hand.
    - dsr_ 6y ago
      It might be faster to train your off hand to mouse than to train it to do all the typing.
    - Symbiote 6y ago
      It's intended for people who only have one working hand / arm. The company also make keyboards for people with no working hands. https://www.maltron.com/store/p24/Maltron_Head%2FMouth_Stick_Keyboard_-_US_English.html https://www.maltron.com/store/p24/Maltron_Head%2FMouth_Stick...
    - regularfry 6y ago
      I'm right-handed and use my left hand for mousing. I originally swapped so I wasn't having to move my hand over the number pad to get to and from the keyboard. I don't use a keyboard with a number pad any more, but I've stuck with it. It's quick to learn.
- alanbernstein 6y ago
  https://twiddler.tekgear.com/ https://twiddler.tekgear.com/
- DanBC 6y ago
  There used to be a thing called a FrogPad. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FrogPad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FrogPad
- PAPPPmAc 6y ago
  There are always chorders for that. I use a DIY'd chorder similar to an Infogrip BAT sometimes - I'm much slower and have a higher error rate on it than on my split QWERTY setups (which typically have a trackball sitting between the halves), which see more use, but it's damn alluring.
bsdubernerd 6y ago
Kudos to the maker here. This looks gorgeous, and very close to the datahand ads I remember. The datahand was a keyboard fetish of mine, although I always wondered of actually usable it would be, especially considering the learning experience. Keep in mind this keyboard requires chording to obtain all normally usable symbols readily available on a traditional keyboard. Making a clone of my advantage pro (my current and favorite keyboard) is somewhere in my todo list. I'm still trying all sorts of weird keyboard/mice configurations. I have probably at least 10 really exotic keyboards in my collection. Years ago I strapped the two sections of the split ergomagic keyboard section to the armrests of my chair, for a startrek-like experience. At least for me, it didn't turn out to be a great ergonomic experience. At home I'm using a foot mouse.
- adolph 6y ago
  Have you tried eye control of the cursor? The below link is software that came up in internet search to check if eye tracking was in fact a thing: https://precisiongazemouse.org/ https://precisiongazemouse.org/
  - bsdubernerd 6y ago
    Not yet, gaze tracking HW was always beyond my economical reach in the past. But this project is super-interesting! Thanks for point this out
    - greggturkington 6y ago
      MacOS has a "head pointer" built in to their a11y preferences
- JesusFreke 6y ago
  Thanks! :) It does technically require chording, but honestly not much more than a normal keyboard. Just a few extra "shift" keys, more or less. And normal textual input is pretty much all non-chorded. I'm a tiny bit biased, of course, but I do find it quite usable. Even (or especially!) for gaming. But yeah, I've been using a datahand, and then later my lalboard as my primary keyboard at home and work for probably going on 15 years now.
lucioperca 6y ago
Related Keyboard https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage2-keyboard/ https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage2-keyboard/
- Aeolun 6y ago
  Doesn’t look very related? Aside from being ergonomic I mean.
  - lucioperca 6y ago
    Cut it in half?
    - tweetle_beetle 6y ago
      There are many keyboards like that, they are called split keyboards [1]. They use the same underlying principle as a standard keyboard, but just distance and angle the keys differently. The DataHand is a completely different paradigm, using different switches, keys and layout - closer to a chorded keyboard [2], but ergonomic and split. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergonomic_keyboard#Split_keyboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergonomic_keyboard#Split_keybo... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorded_keyboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorded_keyboard
      - rickyc091 6y ago
        A large list of splits for comparison. https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/ https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/ Kinesis and Ergodox are generally the two most popular.
Aeolun 6y ago
As much as I enjoyed the idea of these kinds of keyboards, experience has taught me that I get too annoyed with learning a whole new layout, so I quickly switch back to a ‘normal’ keyboard. I really need to get that moonlander out of it’s box again, but the hassle is just too much.
- michaelbuckbee 6y ago
  I've had similar issues switching until I landed on trying a Kinesis Freestyle. It's a qwerty layout but separates the two halves of the keyboard and lets you "tent" them for a more ergonomic angle. Extremely minimal switching time between it and a standard fixed keyboard.
- rickyc091 6y ago
  I found that once you get use to the other keyboard your muscle memory will automatically kick in and readjust depending if you're on a standard keyboard or a split.
- JesusFreke 6y ago
  I guess it's a personality thing. I actually love that whole experience - both when I switched to dvorak on a normal keyboard, and then again when I switched to a datahand. I love the process of developing muscle memory, the mindless repetition, and that feeling of improvement. And especially once it really starts to click, and your fingers start going on autopilot. If you want something to make it a bit less of a drudge, you can take a look at the Amphetype software, which lets you retype ebooks -- so you can basically read a book while practicing typing it.
marcodiego 6y ago
There this project of a guy who built his own Silicon Graphics laptop: https://web.archive.org/web/20080530004443/http://www.jumboprawn.net/jesse/projs/laptop.html https://web.archive.org/web/20080530004443/http://www.jumbop... It is something that has been on my plans for a time to refurbished an old laptop, buy an HDMI to LVDS controller board and replace its guts with a well supported ARM SBC. Wouldn't be the first time someone does that, neither I would go as far as building my own keyboard but it is something I'd like to do.
beeforpork 6y ago
Of all the colours available for 3D printing, dark brown was chosen? It is not pretty(tm). But the shape is gorgeous!
- bsdubernerd 6y ago
  As someone that owns a 3d printer, I'd guess that was a filament that went either old or unused for too long. Ideal for personal projects where you don't care, or that you might want to post-process anyway (sand/paint). Happens frequently when you buy a roll of a hard-to-use color, such as this. By experience I can say that most bright colors would look bad on a project such as this. Bright colors are fine only in very specific circumstances, or for highlights. In almost every other case, a desaturated color looks better. Off-white and dark-grey are my most-used colors.
  - mbreese 6y ago
    From: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41422.msg2706316#msg2706316 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41422.msg2706316#msg270... > Most of the parts are printed from a PLA with a low amount of metal-fill, which I found to have exceptional opacity So, I'm guessing that they wanted the keys to have a bit more weight that the metal-filled PLA would provide? I'm not sure why the opacity of the material matters so much, but the author mentions that a few times. Edit: nope, not weight... actual light blocking was needed. From: https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard/wiki/Printing-tips-&-instructions https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard/wiki/Printing-tips-&-... >Filament choice > For the clusters and keys, you want as opaque of a material as you can get. Try printing a small 2mm thick solid sheet, and hold a flashlight up to the back. Ideally, you won't see any light leakage through the print at all. I tried a few different filaments that I had on hand, and by far the most opaque was some 5% copper filled PLA by Gizmo Dorks. After reading this, I think the issue is the optical switches that are used for the keys. Because they are using an IR LED/phototransistor switch mechanism, the material needs to be as opaque as possible to prevent light from coming through and activating the switches accidentally.
    - bsdubernerd 6y ago
gpm 6y ago
The posts by jesusfreke on this thread are probably required reading for anyone trying to build one of these: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41422.650 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41422.650
enragedcacti 6y ago
Seeing the name JesusFreke is such a throwback for me. He was really instrumental to the early Android hacking scene on the T-Mobile G1. I remember as a teen not-so-patiently awaiting JF firmware versions to drop so I could try out features like bad multitouch and storing apps on the SD card since the internal memory was so small.
- Zhenya 6y ago
  I thought the same thing - xda + jesusfreke+usb mini is massive nastalgia. Found an old thread to take you back: https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/modified-rc30-full-version.443713/ https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/modified-rc30-full-versio... If folks remember one of the first hacks on the g1 was the physical keyboard actually sending keystrokes to the terminal (which allowed to enable SU) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooting_(Android)#Rooting_through_exploits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooting_(Android)#Rooting_thro...
- JesusFreke 6y ago
  I still have a G1 around somewhere rocking JFMod v1.51! :D
jedimastert 6y ago
For those wondering about the name, the Star Trek Next Generation character "Data" had/made a daughter he named "Lal"
- JesusFreke 6y ago
  You get a gold star :D
kasbah 6y ago
Seems like they could easily turn the PCB into something you can just order online instead of this labor some vinyl cutter technique. https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard/wiki/Vinyl-Cut-PCBs https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard/wiki/Vinyl-Cut-PCBs
- JesusFreke 6y ago
  Yeah, it's in the works :) The vinyl cut thing was super useful during the prototype stage, while things were still in flux, and the much shorter turnaround time was advantageous. Although it turned out to be a little side-project all its own, so not entirely sure if it was worth it. But it was a fun side-project none-the-less. And that's what counts in my book, at least!

94 points by bo0tzz 6y ago

cies 6y ago

If the maker read this... How long did it take you to complete this very cool/useful project? What approaches did you try that did not work out? How long would you say it would take you to make an extra pair? (trying to find out how many weekends I should block)

JesusFreke 6y ago
It was a matter of many months, although not 100% all the time on it. I started with trying different designs for a single "down" key mechanism, then just kept broadening the scope - creating a single "cluster" of 5 keys and doing a little proof of concept with the electronics on it. Figuring out the thumb mechanisms.. figuring out the handrest, and the adjustable cluster mounting mechanisms, etc. I wouldn't say there was any particular "failed approach" per say, just a lot of little failed design details along the way, that were changed/improved over the course of the design. It would probably take me about 40 hours (of me time - not including 3d printing, etc.) to make one from scratch at this point. For someone trying to figure it out for the first time, I would double or triple that at least. But once I finish some design tweaks I've been working on, which include some actual fabbed pcbs, it shouldn't be as bad.

blackrock 6y ago

I wonder if anyone can invent a 1-handed keyboard?

lionkor 6y ago
It would be pretty easy with a keyboard like this - just add a key that, while held, activates a seperate layout.
- aysterberi 6y ago
  Kind of like this: http://matias.ca/halfkeyboard/ http://matias.ca/halfkeyboard/
- DanBC 6y ago
  You used to be able to get software versions but Matthias was enforcing its patent. http://blog.monstuff.com/archives/000021.html http://blog.monstuff.com/archives/000021.html https://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3067497 https://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3067497
lucioperca 6y ago
https://www.maltron.com/store/p19/Maltron_Single_Hand_Keyboards_-_US_English.html https://www.maltron.com/store/p19/Maltron_Single_Hand_Keyboa...
- blackrock 6y ago
  Hmm. Not exactly what I had in mind. What a monstrosity this thing is. They claim you can type up to 85 wpm. I might be able to type faster. I assume that if you’re right-handed, then you’ll use your mouse on your right hand. So you would need the left-handed version of this keyboard. Anyone here ever use it before? Any feedback?
  - dahx4Eev 6y ago
    Not exactly the same but this might solve your problem. I am adding a trackball to my dactyl manuform mini so I don’t need to switch between the keyboard and the mouse on my right hand.
  - dsr_ 6y ago
    It might be faster to train your off hand to mouse than to train it to do all the typing.
  - Symbiote 6y ago
    It's intended for people who only have one working hand / arm. The company also make keyboards for people with no working hands. https://www.maltron.com/store/p24/Maltron_Head%2FMouth_Stick_Keyboard_-_US_English.html https://www.maltron.com/store/p24/Maltron_Head%2FMouth_Stick...
  - regularfry 6y ago
    I'm right-handed and use my left hand for mousing. I originally swapped so I wasn't having to move my hand over the number pad to get to and from the keyboard. I don't use a keyboard with a number pad any more, but I've stuck with it. It's quick to learn.
alanbernstein 6y ago
https://twiddler.tekgear.com/ https://twiddler.tekgear.com/
DanBC 6y ago
There used to be a thing called a FrogPad. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FrogPad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FrogPad
PAPPPmAc 6y ago
There are always chorders for that. I use a DIY'd chorder similar to an Infogrip BAT sometimes - I'm much slower and have a higher error rate on it than on my split QWERTY setups (which typically have a trackball sitting between the halves), which see more use, but it's damn alluring.

bsdubernerd 6y ago

Kudos to the maker here. This looks gorgeous, and very close to the datahand ads I remember. The datahand was a keyboard fetish of mine, although I always wondered of actually usable it would be, especially considering the learning experience. Keep in mind this keyboard requires chording to obtain all normally usable symbols readily available on a traditional keyboard. Making a clone of my advantage pro (my current and favorite keyboard) is somewhere in my todo list. I'm still trying all sorts of weird keyboard/mice configurations. I have probably at least 10 really exotic keyboards in my collection. Years ago I strapped the two sections of the split ergomagic keyboard section to the armrests of my chair, for a startrek-like experience. At least for me, it didn't turn out to be a great ergonomic experience. At home I'm using a foot mouse.

adolph 6y ago
Have you tried eye control of the cursor? The below link is software that came up in internet search to check if eye tracking was in fact a thing: https://precisiongazemouse.org/ https://precisiongazemouse.org/
- bsdubernerd 6y ago
  Not yet, gaze tracking HW was always beyond my economical reach in the past. But this project is super-interesting! Thanks for point this out
  - greggturkington 6y ago
    MacOS has a "head pointer" built in to their a11y preferences
JesusFreke 6y ago
Thanks! :) It does technically require chording, but honestly not much more than a normal keyboard. Just a few extra "shift" keys, more or less. And normal textual input is pretty much all non-chorded. I'm a tiny bit biased, of course, but I do find it quite usable. Even (or especially!) for gaming. But yeah, I've been using a datahand, and then later my lalboard as my primary keyboard at home and work for probably going on 15 years now.

lucioperca 6y ago

Related Keyboard https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage2-keyboard/ https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage2-keyboard/

Aeolun 6y ago
Doesn’t look very related? Aside from being ergonomic I mean.
- lucioperca 6y ago
  Cut it in half?
  - tweetle_beetle 6y ago
    There are many keyboards like that, they are called split keyboards [1]. They use the same underlying principle as a standard keyboard, but just distance and angle the keys differently. The DataHand is a completely different paradigm, using different switches, keys and layout - closer to a chorded keyboard [2], but ergonomic and split. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergonomic_keyboard#Split_keyboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergonomic_keyboard#Split_keybo... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorded_keyboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorded_keyboard
    - rickyc091 6y ago
      A large list of splits for comparison. https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/ https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/ Kinesis and Ergodox are generally the two most popular.

Aeolun 6y ago

As much as I enjoyed the idea of these kinds of keyboards, experience has taught me that I get too annoyed with learning a whole new layout, so I quickly switch back to a ‘normal’ keyboard. I really need to get that moonlander out of it’s box again, but the hassle is just too much.

michaelbuckbee 6y ago
I've had similar issues switching until I landed on trying a Kinesis Freestyle. It's a qwerty layout but separates the two halves of the keyboard and lets you "tent" them for a more ergonomic angle. Extremely minimal switching time between it and a standard fixed keyboard.
rickyc091 6y ago
I found that once you get use to the other keyboard your muscle memory will automatically kick in and readjust depending if you're on a standard keyboard or a split.
JesusFreke 6y ago
I guess it's a personality thing. I actually love that whole experience - both when I switched to dvorak on a normal keyboard, and then again when I switched to a datahand. I love the process of developing muscle memory, the mindless repetition, and that feeling of improvement. And especially once it really starts to click, and your fingers start going on autopilot. If you want something to make it a bit less of a drudge, you can take a look at the Amphetype software, which lets you retype ebooks -- so you can basically read a book while practicing typing it.

marcodiego 6y ago

There this project of a guy who built his own Silicon Graphics laptop: https://web.archive.org/web/20080530004443/http://www.jumboprawn.net/jesse/projs/laptop.html https://web.archive.org/web/20080530004443/http://www.jumbop... It is something that has been on my plans for a time to refurbished an old laptop, buy an HDMI to LVDS controller board and replace its guts with a well supported ARM SBC. Wouldn't be the first time someone does that, neither I would go as far as building my own keyboard but it is something I'd like to do.

beeforpork 6y ago

Of all the colours available for 3D printing, dark brown was chosen? It is not pretty(tm). But the shape is gorgeous!

bsdubernerd 6y ago
As someone that owns a 3d printer, I'd guess that was a filament that went either old or unused for too long. Ideal for personal projects where you don't care, or that you might want to post-process anyway (sand/paint). Happens frequently when you buy a roll of a hard-to-use color, such as this. By experience I can say that most bright colors would look bad on a project such as this. Bright colors are fine only in very specific circumstances, or for highlights. In almost every other case, a desaturated color looks better. Off-white and dark-grey are my most-used colors.
- mbreese 6y ago
  From: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41422.msg2706316#msg2706316 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41422.msg2706316#msg270... > Most of the parts are printed from a PLA with a low amount of metal-fill, which I found to have exceptional opacity So, I'm guessing that they wanted the keys to have a bit more weight that the metal-filled PLA would provide? I'm not sure why the opacity of the material matters so much, but the author mentions that a few times. Edit: nope, not weight... actual light blocking was needed. From: https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard/wiki/Printing-tips-&-instructions https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard/wiki/Printing-tips-&-... >Filament choice > For the clusters and keys, you want as opaque of a material as you can get. Try printing a small 2mm thick solid sheet, and hold a flashlight up to the back. Ideally, you won't see any light leakage through the print at all. I tried a few different filaments that I had on hand, and by far the most opaque was some 5% copper filled PLA by Gizmo Dorks. After reading this, I think the issue is the optical switches that are used for the keys. Because they are using an IR LED/phototransistor switch mechanism, the material needs to be as opaque as possible to prevent light from coming through and activating the switches accidentally.
  - bsdubernerd 6y ago

gpm 6y ago

The posts by jesusfreke on this thread are probably required reading for anyone trying to build one of these: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41422.650 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41422.650

enragedcacti 6y ago

Seeing the name JesusFreke is such a throwback for me. He was really instrumental to the early Android hacking scene on the T-Mobile G1. I remember as a teen not-so-patiently awaiting JF firmware versions to drop so I could try out features like bad multitouch and storing apps on the SD card since the internal memory was so small.

Zhenya 6y ago
I thought the same thing - xda + jesusfreke+usb mini is massive nastalgia. Found an old thread to take you back: https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/modified-rc30-full-version.443713/ https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/modified-rc30-full-versio... If folks remember one of the first hacks on the g1 was the physical keyboard actually sending keystrokes to the terminal (which allowed to enable SU) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooting_(Android)#Rooting_through_exploits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooting_(Android)#Rooting_thro...
JesusFreke 6y ago
I still have a G1 around somewhere rocking JFMod v1.51! :D

jedimastert 6y ago

For those wondering about the name, the Star Trek Next Generation character "Data" had/made a daughter he named "Lal"

JesusFreke 6y ago
You get a gold star :D

kasbah 6y ago

Seems like they could easily turn the PCB into something you can just order online instead of this labor some vinyl cutter technique. https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard/wiki/Vinyl-Cut-PCBs https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard/wiki/Vinyl-Cut-PCBs

JesusFreke 6y ago
Yeah, it's in the works :) The vinyl cut thing was super useful during the prototype stage, while things were still in flux, and the much shorter turnaround time was advantageous. Although it turned out to be a little side-project all its own, so not entirely sure if it was worth it. But it was a fun side-project none-the-less. And that's what counts in my book, at least!