4 ms·

Why the staggered layout? I'd kill for a laptop with a matrix key disposition (called "ortholinear" in some circles).

kqr 6y ago
Yeah, this one keeps surprising me. It's not like moving to aligned rows would be a huge transition like e.g. moving to Colemak. We could just make the keyboard like that and we'll be done with the transition in 40 or so years. (Of course I know many reasons why that's not happening. I'm just frustrated by the staggerphilia all around.)
shirro 6y ago
I already have more staggered keyboards than I can use from 60% to full size. Not much incentive to buy more unless you are Chryosan22 and need all the keyboards. But I don't have an ortho. I am curious to try one but I know from experience something like a plank would be too limited. I don't mind giving up the keypad but I like 6 rows and nav keys. I might be more likely to buy an ortho variant just for something different.
- enriquto 6y ago
  > I like 6 rows and nav keys. This has nothing to do with being staggered or not. I use a typematrix 2030 and it has function keys, arrows, and everything, in a split and matricial layout.
  - shirro 6y ago
    Ideally I would be looking for an affordable and customisable mechanical with sockets and open firmware that is a matrix rather than a specialised ergo/split. Most "enthusiast" ortho mechanicals seem to be smaller like the plank and appeal to the people who like layers. I know I don't enjoy lots of layer shifting with smaller keyboards. I have been tempted to build something like an XD75 which is 75 ortho keys in a 60% size. I have also been considering doing a hand wire. More for the fun of making stuff than any necessity. There are bigger orthos aimed at point of sale and ergo users but their features are a bit different.
    - enriquto 6y ago
      I can vouch for the XD75; the version where you simply plug-in the switches is really straightforward to build. I'm still using the typematrix because my switches for the XD75 are too bulky and noisy, but may replace them in the future. Configuring the layout with qmx is also straightforward, and you don't need any layers with a large board like the xd75 (I only have one for the "firmware upload" combo).
    - dsr_ 6y ago
      Have you seen that X-Bows is pre-selling their 3rd generation, now programmable with QMK? - ortho - angled but not split - replaceable MX-style switches - 86 keys - lights, no whistles
iFreilicht 6y ago
Yes, ortholinear laptop keyboard would be the dream! I doubt it's ever going to happen, though.
- enriquto 6y ago
  They just need to make a laptop with easily swappable pcb of standard size.
  - iFreilicht 6y ago
    The only standard (more like pseudo-standard) I know of are the DIY 60% layouts. Those have defined mounting points and a lot of PCBs and cases are interchangeable. But no ortholinear layout fits these OOTB because the mounting points interfere with the changed switch positions. Additionally, I (and presumably the majority of users) don't want a mechanical keyboard in my Laptop, I want a thin chiclet-style keyboard, and there are zero standards regarding those and producing an ortholinear replacement in small quantities would be quite costly.
the_gipsy 6y ago
https://github.com/saoto28/pineapple60/ https://github.com/saoto28/pineapple60/
- kohlerm 6y ago
  This is f*cking amazing!
- 1MachineElf 6y ago
  Thank you so much for sharing that. I even have the T470s & T460s to make this dream come true. 2021 goal set.
- O_H_E 6y ago
  That is AWESOME.
- ponsfrilus 6y ago
  Waow! Nice job there!
roel_v 6y ago
Why would anyone want ortolinear layout in non-split keyboards? Do you sit with your elbows scrunched up in front of your body?
- enriquto 6y ago
  why would you want staggered non-split keyboards?
  - roel_v 6y ago
    Because your arm is at an angle to the rows of the keys (with a non-split keyboard), so when you extend a finger, it doesn't go straight up. With staggered keys, you can reach the key on a row up by only extending your finger (i.e, moving it in line with the direction of your underarm), without having to move any other fingers aside.
    - enriquto 6y ago
      This argument may justify that staggered keys are better for one hand and much worse for the other hand. Your hands are symmetric, why would you want an asymmetric keyboard (split or not)?
      - roel_v 6y ago
        How do you mean? For both the left and right hand, you extend the fingers, pretty much symmetrically. It's not perfectly straight depending on how the staggering is done, but straight up is worse than all the alternatives.
    - devenvdev 6y ago
      This is simply not true. https://youtu.be/Ho_CFfdsmc8 https://youtu.be/Ho_CFfdsmc8 With ortholinear this argument holds more without actually twisting your wrists.
quasarj 6y ago
There's definitely room for both types of keyboard. For me, I have tried ortholinear, but I just can't handle it. Or more specifically - I use too many keyboards during the day, and switching one of them to a linear layout and not the rest is a nightmare. Switching them all would be expensive... maybe one day. But I don't feel like you get enough benefit to justify it.

kqr 6y ago

Yeah, this one keeps surprising me. It's not like moving to aligned rows would be a huge transition like e.g. moving to Colemak. We could just make the keyboard like that and we'll be done with the transition in 40 or so years. (Of course I know many reasons why that's not happening. I'm just frustrated by the staggerphilia all around.)

shirro 6y ago

I already have more staggered keyboards than I can use from 60% to full size. Not much incentive to buy more unless you are Chryosan22 and need all the keyboards. But I don't have an ortho. I am curious to try one but I know from experience something like a plank would be too limited. I don't mind giving up the keypad but I like 6 rows and nav keys. I might be more likely to buy an ortho variant just for something different.

enriquto 6y ago
> I like 6 rows and nav keys. This has nothing to do with being staggered or not. I use a typematrix 2030 and it has function keys, arrows, and everything, in a split and matricial layout.
- shirro 6y ago
  Ideally I would be looking for an affordable and customisable mechanical with sockets and open firmware that is a matrix rather than a specialised ergo/split. Most "enthusiast" ortho mechanicals seem to be smaller like the plank and appeal to the people who like layers. I know I don't enjoy lots of layer shifting with smaller keyboards. I have been tempted to build something like an XD75 which is 75 ortho keys in a 60% size. I have also been considering doing a hand wire. More for the fun of making stuff than any necessity. There are bigger orthos aimed at point of sale and ergo users but their features are a bit different.
  - enriquto 6y ago
    I can vouch for the XD75; the version where you simply plug-in the switches is really straightforward to build. I'm still using the typematrix because my switches for the XD75 are too bulky and noisy, but may replace them in the future. Configuring the layout with qmx is also straightforward, and you don't need any layers with a large board like the xd75 (I only have one for the "firmware upload" combo).
  - dsr_ 6y ago
    Have you seen that X-Bows is pre-selling their 3rd generation, now programmable with QMK? - ortho - angled but not split - replaceable MX-style switches - 86 keys - lights, no whistles

iFreilicht 6y ago

Yes, ortholinear laptop keyboard would be the dream! I doubt it's ever going to happen, though.

enriquto 6y ago
They just need to make a laptop with easily swappable pcb of standard size.
- iFreilicht 6y ago
  The only standard (more like pseudo-standard) I know of are the DIY 60% layouts. Those have defined mounting points and a lot of PCBs and cases are interchangeable. But no ortholinear layout fits these OOTB because the mounting points interfere with the changed switch positions. Additionally, I (and presumably the majority of users) don't want a mechanical keyboard in my Laptop, I want a thin chiclet-style keyboard, and there are zero standards regarding those and producing an ortholinear replacement in small quantities would be quite costly.

the_gipsy 6y ago

https://github.com/saoto28/pineapple60/ https://github.com/saoto28/pineapple60/

kohlerm 6y ago
This is f*cking amazing!
1MachineElf 6y ago
Thank you so much for sharing that. I even have the T470s & T460s to make this dream come true. 2021 goal set.
O_H_E 6y ago
That is AWESOME.
ponsfrilus 6y ago
Waow! Nice job there!

roel_v 6y ago

Why would anyone want ortolinear layout in non-split keyboards? Do you sit with your elbows scrunched up in front of your body?

enriquto 6y ago
why would you want staggered non-split keyboards?
- roel_v 6y ago
  Because your arm is at an angle to the rows of the keys (with a non-split keyboard), so when you extend a finger, it doesn't go straight up. With staggered keys, you can reach the key on a row up by only extending your finger (i.e, moving it in line with the direction of your underarm), without having to move any other fingers aside.
  - enriquto 6y ago
    This argument may justify that staggered keys are better for one hand and much worse for the other hand. Your hands are symmetric, why would you want an asymmetric keyboard (split or not)?
    - roel_v 6y ago
      How do you mean? For both the left and right hand, you extend the fingers, pretty much symmetrically. It's not perfectly straight depending on how the staggering is done, but straight up is worse than all the alternatives.
  - devenvdev 6y ago
    This is simply not true. https://youtu.be/Ho_CFfdsmc8 https://youtu.be/Ho_CFfdsmc8 With ortholinear this argument holds more without actually twisting your wrists.

quasarj 6y ago

There's definitely room for both types of keyboard. For me, I have tried ortholinear, but I just can't handle it. Or more specifically - I use too many keyboards during the day, and switching one of them to a linear layout and not the rest is a nightmare. Switching them all would be expensive... maybe one day. But I don't feel like you get enough benefit to justify it.