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My unpopular opinion is that these specific Google apps are advertising supported, and Apple are cutting them off from advertising revenue with the unavailabili

My unpopular opinion is that these specific Google apps are advertising supported, and Apple are cutting them off from advertising revenue with the unavailability of IDFA on iOS14.5. What is the motivation for Google to maintain these apps on iOS if these expensive apps no longer earn revenue for the company? It will harm Apple iPhone sales if these apps are no longer available on iOS as they are some of the most popular in the world, so I'd say there is either wheeling and dealing behind the scenes to cut a deal where Apple pay Google to maintain these apps, or Apple are in panic mode trying to bring their own apps up to the level of the Google ones. Google Maps and Apple Maps may be near equivalents in the USA, but in the rest of the world Apple Maps is far behind.

notatoad 6y ago
I guess Google maps might use the IDFA, but photos doesn't have ads and Gmail only works when you're signed in, so a theory that this is related to the IDFA doesn't really hold water.
- frongpik 6y ago
  The iOS app may collect data, so ads would be displayed in Chrome on another device. The actual scheme is probably much more complicated.
  - notatoad 6y ago
    But if you're signed in with your google account, they don't need apple to allow them to access an anonymized advertiser id. They have everything they need to track you across iOS and Chrome. The IDFA is completely irrelevant to them here. Somebody broke something. It's kinda funny for us and embarrassing for Google, but its not a conspiracy
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- altitudinous 6y ago
  You are applying a technical reason here, but see the bigger picture. Google is being cut off on making money on iOS generally - in web properties, in apps via admob, etc, etc, so may have made a decision that it is no longer supporting it and may be doing so just as leverage. Apple would see the danger that it would drive folks to alternatives that do support Google products.
- fwiwm2c 6y ago
  I would like to correct you here. It doesn't matter if the app is using IDFA or not. If the app is using data for targeting and advertising purposes, they have to disclose that. Users are always signed into Facebook but they still have to disclose for instance.
  - Thorrez 6y ago
    I'm confused by your comment. Nothing you said contradicts what notatoad said, but you say you're correcting notatoad.
    - fwiwm2c 6y ago
      Come on man. He literally said logging into GMail should be ok since it doesn't use IDFA and I am saying it is not as per Apple's guidelines.
      - Thorrez 6y ago
        altitudinous said the updates stopped due to Apple shutting down IDFA. notatoad said no, it's unrelated to IDFA. You seem to agree with notatoad, saying IDFA is unrelated, other factors are what matter.
  - kall 6y ago
    Facebook doesn‘t need the IDFA to rack advertising in their own app but they need it to: - track advertising shown in other apps that use their advertising tools - use their main app to tie the IDFA (which is all they have from third party apps) to your FB account Privacy label requirements that some users may look at are one thing, but IDFA access specifically pops up a dialog that can be denied, like location access so it is way more endangered.
minikites 6y ago
>It will harm Apple iPhone sales if these apps are no longer available on iOS I don't think so, Google needs to be on iPhones much more than Apple needs Google to be on iPhones. Gmail works with Mail and I don't think many people are going to switch to Android just to use a native Gmail app.
babesh 6y ago
Apple isn’t just cutting them off from tracking at the app level. Go look at Safari. It is tracking who is tracking you on websites. Without these, Google only gets revenue from search on iOS. That itself is diminished because they won’t be able to later show you ads based on your search. That is why Google pushes you to sign in. An additional problem is that search revenue from iOS devices is greater than on Android (as of a few years ago). So this, and that consumers spend most of their time on mobile, is a huge problem for Google. This is a LOT of their revenue. Like you said, this looks like a silent war. Google can’t complain about monopoly power given that they control Android. That’s why this war is silent. Also, this isn’t just about Google. You have Facebook, Snap, etc...
- altitudinous 6y ago
  Yes, I have said the same in another comment here but it has been downvoted out of existence by some “well meaning” folk! Google are losing out on the web property advertising and in app advertising. Not updating or supporting the major apps is likely just being used as leverage by Google.
anonymousab 6y ago
> Apple are cutting them off from advertising revenue with the unavailability of IDFA on iOS14.5 Is it impossible to do any kind of advertising without the IDFA? Or is this simply a matter of them only being able to make a smaller yet still gigantic pile of money?
- somedude895 6y ago
  You still have lots of options for advertising. All that IDFA does is allow you to identify users across apps. E.g. you're using Google Maps and Google wants to use your behavior in the app to then show you ads in Safari later. Or vice versa use your browsing behavior from Safari to decide which ad to show you in the Google Maps app. Also, it allows Google to track that you've seen an ad and later bought something from the advertiser's website, so the advertiser knows what they get in return for their ad spend.
  - greggman3 6y ago
    Will it still be possible to login across apps? As it is if login to Gmail I'm also logged into Chrome, Maps, Keep, Drive, Docs, Sheets, etc....
    - lxgr 6y ago
      I think Google does this via keychain item sharing. This won't go away, but only works between apps of the same vendor (who could arguably just also ship a giant monolithic app instead).
  - ilkkao 6y ago
    Apple rules state that the app needs to show the prompt if it does tracking based on any id. As far I know you can't avoid it by using logged-in user id or email. Technically yes, but not without breaking the rules set by Apple. "Sharing a list of emails, advertising IDs, or other IDs with a third-party advertising network that uses that information to retarget those users in other developers’ apps or to find similar users."
lumost 6y ago
I was a die hard android user from its release until last year, my pixel 2 had simply become unusable due to battery life and performance issues that I'm 90% certain were related to ad tracking on android apps. It's 2021, servers are a fraction of the pice and vastly easier to deploy than they were in '08 when Apple needed google for these apps. I'm not convinced we use the G-suite of products for any particularly good reason other than they have a G and they are free. For the margins and scale of ios Apple could easily provide equivalent apps in-house if customers need them to be free or let the market set the price for non-ad supported versions. Since switching I've only used gmail and maps/waze from g-suite. I'm 90% certain I can replace maps/waze in the near future.
- perryizgr8 6y ago
  > my pixel 2 had simply become unusable due to battery life and performance issues that I'm 90% certain were related to ad tracking on android apps. Pretty sure that's just crappy google quality. My 2 year old Samsung is going strong. It became marginally faster with the latest update.
- creato 6y ago
  A pixel 2 is a 4 year old phone... I wouldn't be surprised if your battery is performing at a fraction of its original capability, and that might be slowing down performance too. It's not like Apple is immune to this either: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batterygate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batterygate
  - lumost 6y ago
    The pixel 2 was my 4th android, and I honestly hadn't experienced anything quite like the performance issues on the pixel 2 in the last 2 years.
    - creato 6y ago
      You had the last 3 phones for ~4 years each as well? Android has only existed for ~10 years... Look, it might very well be a shitty phone. Just saying that after 4 years I'd cut any phone a break. Especially since phones got impractically thin, batteries have really struggled to work the way they do when they are new after a year or two.
GeekyBear 6y ago
This isn't about the IDFA or some future update. This is about the requirement to disclose how much data you are collecting and what you are doing with it that rolled out as "Privacy Nutrition Labels" in iOS 14.3 a couple of months ago. >Apple announced Privacy Nutrition Labels at WWDC 2020. Under the scheme, developers selling apps on the App Store must explain the privacy practices of each one they sell. That means detailed information concerning what data they collect, why, and what they do with it must be provided to users in the form of what looks like a food nutrition label. Apple has asked developers to provide this information with their app since Dec. 8; while apps already available in the store don’t have to have it, as developers roll out updates, they’ll be expected to include where data is being used and in what category (including financial and personal data). https://www.computerworld.com/article/3600998/apples-privacy-nutrition-labels-available-now-and-good-for-business.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/3600998/apples-privacy... If you update your app, you must disclose the privacy information to users. Google's solution to the problem has been to refuse to update their apps, and they have waited so long that they have triggered their own automated security warning.
- judge2020 6y ago
  Maybe Google is taking the time to actually evaluate and correctly label what they use for advertising instead of taking FB's approach of checking every box.
  - GeekyBear 6y ago
    I think the speculation elsewhere in the comments that Google would rather do major rewrites and end some of their current data collection practices than disclose what they have been doing all along is more likely to be correct.
    - kevincox 6y ago
      But Google has their own privacy policy. So is this "nutrition label" requiring information that they didn't already have in their privacy policy? Or are they assuming that nobody reads the privacy policy but more people will read this label?
kiwijamo 6y ago
Here in New Zealand, Apple Maps is more or less on par with Google Maps with a lot of variability in different areas. I switched from Apple to Google about a year ago and to be honest even if Google Maps is sometimes better than Apple, it's not always better. There are times I wish I had access to Apple Maps as they actually have better data (or in some cases they have data while Google has nothing at all to show) in certain areas. New roads for example take ages (sometimes in the order of years) to show up on Google whereas they're on Apple relatively quickly.
- EugeneOZ 6y ago
  Spain - Apple Maps are barely usable. Some roads are from outdated maps (> 10 years), it can not build bicycle route.
- leesalminen 6y ago
  That's interesting! I'm an American currently in Costa Rica. I use Apple Maps in the US and its quality is decent enough. Here in Costa Rica, Apple Maps is virtually unusable. It says it can't provide directions for something just down the street, <1 km away.
- somedude895 6y ago
  I wish I didn't have to use Google Maps, but in Switzerland Apple Maps is terrible. I try the switch again every now and then but I've never managed to go a week without having to hop over to Google because Apple is lacking, so I might as well just use Google 100% of the time. It's a real shame. It's not even just convenient features like opening hours and such, but the most basic searches for a business or something...
  - fsflover 6y ago
    > I wish I didn't have to use Google Maps, but in Switzerland Apple Maps is terrible. What about openstreetmap?
    - novaRom 6y ago
rz2k 6y ago
The Google apps function like a security key. I pay Google too much every month for Youtube TV that I don't watch, and at this point isn't a bargain compared to restoring television service to the Comcast plan I need anyway for internet access. When users access many types of paid subscription accounts, they are asked to confirm the login in a Google app on their mobile device. It's dangerous if vulnerabilities aren't being fixed and their servers still trust these apps to authenticate. On another note, over the past year a few people have told me their new email addresses, then they continued using Gmail out of inertia. A significant enough problem with their aging apps could be the event that gets users to follow through and make a transition away from using Google services as a default.
addicted 6y ago
Alternatively, Apples privacy stance means I’m sticking to an iPhone despite being unhappy about the closed nature of their eco system and Apple’s constant attempts to clamp down on the ability of 3rd parties to repair their devices.
- fsflover 6y ago
  Or maybe you could consider a company which has a good privacy stance and at the same time does not create walled garden and allows repairs: https://puri.sm/products https://puri.sm/products. (happy user)
  - codazoda 6y ago
    Wowsers, $1999 for the USA version. I'd definitely have to see one in the wild and have a chance to try it out before I dropped that much.
    - fsflover 6y ago
      It's produced in the USA. How much do other phones produced there cost? Standard model costs $799.
- throwanem 6y ago
  Nothing I've seen suggests they're able to implement aftermarket hardware checks on phones that are already on the market and don't have them. Difficulty of repair seems to go up a bit with every generation, too, as they cram more into every cubic millimeter. One more reason not to insist on the latest and greatest. - Sent from my iPhone SE (1st generation)
  - fsflover 6y ago
    > One more reason not to insist on the latest and greatest. Except you are out of luck when Apple decides to stop updates.
    - 6y ago

notatoad 6y ago

I guess Google maps might use the IDFA, but photos doesn't have ads and Gmail only works when you're signed in, so a theory that this is related to the IDFA doesn't really hold water.

frongpik 6y ago
The iOS app may collect data, so ads would be displayed in Chrome on another device. The actual scheme is probably much more complicated.
- notatoad 6y ago
  But if you're signed in with your google account, they don't need apple to allow them to access an anonymized advertiser id. They have everything they need to track you across iOS and Chrome. The IDFA is completely irrelevant to them here. Somebody broke something. It's kinda funny for us and embarrassing for Google, but its not a conspiracy
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
altitudinous 6y ago
You are applying a technical reason here, but see the bigger picture. Google is being cut off on making money on iOS generally - in web properties, in apps via admob, etc, etc, so may have made a decision that it is no longer supporting it and may be doing so just as leverage. Apple would see the danger that it would drive folks to alternatives that do support Google products.
fwiwm2c 6y ago
I would like to correct you here. It doesn't matter if the app is using IDFA or not. If the app is using data for targeting and advertising purposes, they have to disclose that. Users are always signed into Facebook but they still have to disclose for instance.
- Thorrez 6y ago
  I'm confused by your comment. Nothing you said contradicts what notatoad said, but you say you're correcting notatoad.
  - fwiwm2c 6y ago
    Come on man. He literally said logging into GMail should be ok since it doesn't use IDFA and I am saying it is not as per Apple's guidelines.
    - Thorrez 6y ago
      altitudinous said the updates stopped due to Apple shutting down IDFA. notatoad said no, it's unrelated to IDFA. You seem to agree with notatoad, saying IDFA is unrelated, other factors are what matter.
- kall 6y ago
  Facebook doesn‘t need the IDFA to rack advertising in their own app but they need it to: - track advertising shown in other apps that use their advertising tools - use their main app to tie the IDFA (which is all they have from third party apps) to your FB account Privacy label requirements that some users may look at are one thing, but IDFA access specifically pops up a dialog that can be denied, like location access so it is way more endangered.

minikites 6y ago

>It will harm Apple iPhone sales if these apps are no longer available on iOS I don't think so, Google needs to be on iPhones much more than Apple needs Google to be on iPhones. Gmail works with Mail and I don't think many people are going to switch to Android just to use a native Gmail app.

babesh 6y ago

Apple isn’t just cutting them off from tracking at the app level. Go look at Safari. It is tracking who is tracking you on websites. Without these, Google only gets revenue from search on iOS. That itself is diminished because they won’t be able to later show you ads based on your search. That is why Google pushes you to sign in. An additional problem is that search revenue from iOS devices is greater than on Android (as of a few years ago). So this, and that consumers spend most of their time on mobile, is a huge problem for Google. This is a LOT of their revenue. Like you said, this looks like a silent war. Google can’t complain about monopoly power given that they control Android. That’s why this war is silent. Also, this isn’t just about Google. You have Facebook, Snap, etc...

altitudinous 6y ago
Yes, I have said the same in another comment here but it has been downvoted out of existence by some “well meaning” folk! Google are losing out on the web property advertising and in app advertising. Not updating or supporting the major apps is likely just being used as leverage by Google.

anonymousab 6y ago

> Apple are cutting them off from advertising revenue with the unavailability of IDFA on iOS14.5 Is it impossible to do any kind of advertising without the IDFA? Or is this simply a matter of them only being able to make a smaller yet still gigantic pile of money?

somedude895 6y ago
You still have lots of options for advertising. All that IDFA does is allow you to identify users across apps. E.g. you're using Google Maps and Google wants to use your behavior in the app to then show you ads in Safari later. Or vice versa use your browsing behavior from Safari to decide which ad to show you in the Google Maps app. Also, it allows Google to track that you've seen an ad and later bought something from the advertiser's website, so the advertiser knows what they get in return for their ad spend.
- greggman3 6y ago
  Will it still be possible to login across apps? As it is if login to Gmail I'm also logged into Chrome, Maps, Keep, Drive, Docs, Sheets, etc....
  - lxgr 6y ago
    I think Google does this via keychain item sharing. This won't go away, but only works between apps of the same vendor (who could arguably just also ship a giant monolithic app instead).
- ilkkao 6y ago
  Apple rules state that the app needs to show the prompt if it does tracking based on any id. As far I know you can't avoid it by using logged-in user id or email. Technically yes, but not without breaking the rules set by Apple. "Sharing a list of emails, advertising IDs, or other IDs with a third-party advertising network that uses that information to retarget those users in other developers’ apps or to find similar users."

lumost 6y ago

I was a die hard android user from its release until last year, my pixel 2 had simply become unusable due to battery life and performance issues that I'm 90% certain were related to ad tracking on android apps. It's 2021, servers are a fraction of the pice and vastly easier to deploy than they were in '08 when Apple needed google for these apps. I'm not convinced we use the G-suite of products for any particularly good reason other than they have a G and they are free. For the margins and scale of ios Apple could easily provide equivalent apps in-house if customers need them to be free or let the market set the price for non-ad supported versions. Since switching I've only used gmail and maps/waze from g-suite. I'm 90% certain I can replace maps/waze in the near future.

perryizgr8 6y ago
> my pixel 2 had simply become unusable due to battery life and performance issues that I'm 90% certain were related to ad tracking on android apps. Pretty sure that's just crappy google quality. My 2 year old Samsung is going strong. It became marginally faster with the latest update.
creato 6y ago
A pixel 2 is a 4 year old phone... I wouldn't be surprised if your battery is performing at a fraction of its original capability, and that might be slowing down performance too. It's not like Apple is immune to this either: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batterygate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batterygate
- lumost 6y ago
  The pixel 2 was my 4th android, and I honestly hadn't experienced anything quite like the performance issues on the pixel 2 in the last 2 years.
  - creato 6y ago
    You had the last 3 phones for ~4 years each as well? Android has only existed for ~10 years... Look, it might very well be a shitty phone. Just saying that after 4 years I'd cut any phone a break. Especially since phones got impractically thin, batteries have really struggled to work the way they do when they are new after a year or two.

GeekyBear 6y ago

This isn't about the IDFA or some future update. This is about the requirement to disclose how much data you are collecting and what you are doing with it that rolled out as "Privacy Nutrition Labels" in iOS 14.3 a couple of months ago. >Apple announced Privacy Nutrition Labels at WWDC 2020. Under the scheme, developers selling apps on the App Store must explain the privacy practices of each one they sell. That means detailed information concerning what data they collect, why, and what they do with it must be provided to users in the form of what looks like a food nutrition label. Apple has asked developers to provide this information with their app since Dec. 8; while apps already available in the store don’t have to have it, as developers roll out updates, they’ll be expected to include where data is being used and in what category (including financial and personal data). https://www.computerworld.com/article/3600998/apples-privacy-nutrition-labels-available-now-and-good-for-business.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/3600998/apples-privacy... If you update your app, you must disclose the privacy information to users. Google's solution to the problem has been to refuse to update their apps, and they have waited so long that they have triggered their own automated security warning.

judge2020 6y ago
Maybe Google is taking the time to actually evaluate and correctly label what they use for advertising instead of taking FB's approach of checking every box.
- GeekyBear 6y ago
  I think the speculation elsewhere in the comments that Google would rather do major rewrites and end some of their current data collection practices than disclose what they have been doing all along is more likely to be correct.
  - kevincox 6y ago
    But Google has their own privacy policy. So is this "nutrition label" requiring information that they didn't already have in their privacy policy? Or are they assuming that nobody reads the privacy policy but more people will read this label?

kiwijamo 6y ago

Here in New Zealand, Apple Maps is more or less on par with Google Maps with a lot of variability in different areas. I switched from Apple to Google about a year ago and to be honest even if Google Maps is sometimes better than Apple, it's not always better. There are times I wish I had access to Apple Maps as they actually have better data (or in some cases they have data while Google has nothing at all to show) in certain areas. New roads for example take ages (sometimes in the order of years) to show up on Google whereas they're on Apple relatively quickly.

EugeneOZ 6y ago
Spain - Apple Maps are barely usable. Some roads are from outdated maps (> 10 years), it can not build bicycle route.
leesalminen 6y ago
That's interesting! I'm an American currently in Costa Rica. I use Apple Maps in the US and its quality is decent enough. Here in Costa Rica, Apple Maps is virtually unusable. It says it can't provide directions for something just down the street, <1 km away.
somedude895 6y ago
I wish I didn't have to use Google Maps, but in Switzerland Apple Maps is terrible. I try the switch again every now and then but I've never managed to go a week without having to hop over to Google because Apple is lacking, so I might as well just use Google 100% of the time. It's a real shame. It's not even just convenient features like opening hours and such, but the most basic searches for a business or something...
- fsflover 6y ago
  > I wish I didn't have to use Google Maps, but in Switzerland Apple Maps is terrible. What about openstreetmap?
  - novaRom 6y ago

rz2k 6y ago

The Google apps function like a security key. I pay Google too much every month for Youtube TV that I don't watch, and at this point isn't a bargain compared to restoring television service to the Comcast plan I need anyway for internet access. When users access many types of paid subscription accounts, they are asked to confirm the login in a Google app on their mobile device. It's dangerous if vulnerabilities aren't being fixed and their servers still trust these apps to authenticate. On another note, over the past year a few people have told me their new email addresses, then they continued using Gmail out of inertia. A significant enough problem with their aging apps could be the event that gets users to follow through and make a transition away from using Google services as a default.

addicted 6y ago

Alternatively, Apples privacy stance means I’m sticking to an iPhone despite being unhappy about the closed nature of their eco system and Apple’s constant attempts to clamp down on the ability of 3rd parties to repair their devices.

fsflover 6y ago
Or maybe you could consider a company which has a good privacy stance and at the same time does not create walled garden and allows repairs: https://puri.sm/products https://puri.sm/products. (happy user)
- codazoda 6y ago
  Wowsers, $1999 for the USA version. I'd definitely have to see one in the wild and have a chance to try it out before I dropped that much.
  - fsflover 6y ago
    It's produced in the USA. How much do other phones produced there cost? Standard model costs $799.
throwanem 6y ago
Nothing I've seen suggests they're able to implement aftermarket hardware checks on phones that are already on the market and don't have them. Difficulty of repair seems to go up a bit with every generation, too, as they cram more into every cubic millimeter. One more reason not to insist on the latest and greatest. - Sent from my iPhone SE (1st generation)
- fsflover 6y ago
  > One more reason not to insist on the latest and greatest. Except you are out of luck when Apple decides to stop updates.
  - 6y ago