7 ms·

>Not to sound preachy, but did anyone have the "wait isn't this bad for the environment" reaction to any of the other stories on HN today? Starlink? That new Sa

by Bakary 6y ago

>Not to sound preachy, but did anyone have the "wait isn't this bad for the environment" reaction to any of the other stories on HN today? Starlink? That new Samsung fab plant? Shit, there's an ad on the front page right now for a gourmet dinner delivery startup. What is it about this one that brings out HN's inner environmentalist? This is one aspect of the tech world (and more broadly the "comfortable knowledge worker" class) that irritates me. There are so many aspects of sustainable development that are only considered from a perspective of NIMBYism mixed with orientalism. The one that bothers me the most is the portrayal of overpopulation as something caused only by people in developing countries, as if the first world wasn't part of the total count.

EL_Loco 6y ago
Plus, the first world inhabitants pollute much, much more than third world individuals. Plane travel, consumerism, person/car ratio, etc etc
- bromuro 6y ago
  Oh “first” or “third”, this is actually the “only one” world we have. The more we want to be rich, the more we destroy it. ...how many want to be rich?
  - murukesh_s 6y ago
    What is rich actually? I still don't understand how can an entire nation be rich without someone (immigrant) or machines doing your job.. or access to latest gadgets? but i still see people struggling to pay for education, finding jobs is extremely difficult etc.. people are still low/middle/upper irrespective of the country. there are several developing nations where people don't have so much struggle to live.
- Const-me 6y ago
  > Plane travel, consumerism, person/car ratio, etc etc The rest of the world is catching up faster than most people are aware. Here's a link for daily plastic waste generation per person: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/plastic-waste-per-capita https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/plastic-waste-per-capita I don't see an obvious correlation between first world and amount of waste: the #1 country is Guyana, China and Russia are well above Canada, etc. Similar with CO2 emissions: https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-per-capita/ https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-pe... The #1 is Qatar, we in Montenegro are on the second place.
  - vinay427 6y ago
    Yes, there isn't a clear divide between "first-world" and everyone else anymore. That being said, I think the wealthier countries that are more industrialized have a debt to pay with regards to climate impact given that they were able to develop and build before mainstream awareness of the issue, and virtually all of the accumulated pollution today is therefore due to these industrialized nations. I'd like to see a period in which China, India, and smaller nations are able to use more than their share of the global quota while the wealthier countries in western Europe and North America use less, per capita and in sum.
ip26 6y ago
The one that bothers me the most is the portrayal of overpopulation as something caused only by people in developing countries, as if the first world wasn't part of the total count. FWIW if you ignore immigration, nearly all first world countries are gradually depopulating. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-replacement_fertility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-replacement_fertility Of course, that doesn't mean for a second that the solution to the world's problems somehow involves population control in developing countries.
- jbothma 6y ago
  In fact, birth rate decreases after a certain level of development. The first world went through the same process, the developing world today is going through that process much more rapidly. So the solution is probably to help them develop ASAP.
  - jelliclesfarm 6y ago
    > So the solution is probably to help them develop ASAP. There are two kinds of mythologies that have been the cause of reckless and thoughtless procreation leading to overpopulation: 1. Religion 2. ‘Abundance’ mythologies penned by the Peter Diamandis/Steven Kotler ilk.
    - Grustaf 6y ago
      I have no idea who Peter Diamandis/Steven Kotler are but I doubt they had any large effects on the overpopulation of the world. Regarding "religion": do you think "religions" came up with the concept of having a lot of children? You don't think it's simply a natural instinct, like in all other animals? And that in a world where few make it to adulthood, people tried to have more children?
      - bildung 6y ago
        > And that in a world where few make it to adulthood, people tried to have more children? It's pretty well-established that it isn't poverty per se but gender equality that predicts birth rates.

by Bakary 6y ago

EL_Loco 6y ago

Plus, the first world inhabitants pollute much, much more than third world individuals. Plane travel, consumerism, person/car ratio, etc etc

bromuro 6y ago
Oh “first” or “third”, this is actually the “only one” world we have. The more we want to be rich, the more we destroy it. ...how many want to be rich?
- murukesh_s 6y ago
  What is rich actually? I still don't understand how can an entire nation be rich without someone (immigrant) or machines doing your job.. or access to latest gadgets? but i still see people struggling to pay for education, finding jobs is extremely difficult etc.. people are still low/middle/upper irrespective of the country. there are several developing nations where people don't have so much struggle to live.
Const-me 6y ago
> Plane travel, consumerism, person/car ratio, etc etc The rest of the world is catching up faster than most people are aware. Here's a link for daily plastic waste generation per person: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/plastic-waste-per-capita https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/plastic-waste-per-capita I don't see an obvious correlation between first world and amount of waste: the #1 country is Guyana, China and Russia are well above Canada, etc. Similar with CO2 emissions: https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-per-capita/ https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-pe... The #1 is Qatar, we in Montenegro are on the second place.
- vinay427 6y ago
  Yes, there isn't a clear divide between "first-world" and everyone else anymore. That being said, I think the wealthier countries that are more industrialized have a debt to pay with regards to climate impact given that they were able to develop and build before mainstream awareness of the issue, and virtually all of the accumulated pollution today is therefore due to these industrialized nations. I'd like to see a period in which China, India, and smaller nations are able to use more than their share of the global quota while the wealthier countries in western Europe and North America use less, per capita and in sum.

ip26 6y ago

The one that bothers me the most is the portrayal of overpopulation as something caused only by people in developing countries, as if the first world wasn't part of the total count. FWIW if you ignore immigration, nearly all first world countries are gradually depopulating. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-replacement_fertility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-replacement_fertility Of course, that doesn't mean for a second that the solution to the world's problems somehow involves population control in developing countries.

jbothma 6y ago
In fact, birth rate decreases after a certain level of development. The first world went through the same process, the developing world today is going through that process much more rapidly. So the solution is probably to help them develop ASAP.
- jelliclesfarm 6y ago
  > So the solution is probably to help them develop ASAP. There are two kinds of mythologies that have been the cause of reckless and thoughtless procreation leading to overpopulation: 1. Religion 2. ‘Abundance’ mythologies penned by the Peter Diamandis/Steven Kotler ilk.
  - Grustaf 6y ago
    I have no idea who Peter Diamandis/Steven Kotler are but I doubt they had any large effects on the overpopulation of the world. Regarding "religion": do you think "religions" came up with the concept of having a lot of children? You don't think it's simply a natural instinct, like in all other animals? And that in a world where few make it to adulthood, people tried to have more children?
    - bildung 6y ago
      > And that in a world where few make it to adulthood, people tried to have more children? It's pretty well-established that it isn't poverty per se but gender equality that predicts birth rates.