4 ms·

What about all those Lightning Network transactions on top of Bitcoin?

by j3th9n 6y ago

sharpneli 6y ago
https://bitcoinvisuals.com/lightning https://bitcoinvisuals.com/lightning No information on actual transactions performed. But in practice the lightning network is tiny and stagnant. If it would actually be used it would perhaps be more relevant, but it really doesn't seem to be. Except as an excuse for the bad efficiency.
- j3th9n 6y ago
  That's because of the nature of the Lightning Network. You can only see transactions going through your own LN node, if you run one. Only the opened LN channels are visible for everyone.
  - sharpneli 6y ago
    Sure. But the amount of channels gives an indication on the potential users. And it's way way less than on the main network, basically a footnote at this point. Yeah it _might_ grow in the future. But until it does it doesn't work as an argument. Also in order to get into Visa levels of efficiency one would have to have (assuming the 741kWh in the main network) 500k TX per second in the lightning network with 0 energy cost. Visa handles around 1700 per second. So basically if we'd have all the worlds economy in Lightning network we might get close to those numbers (assuming 8 billion people each doing one transaction per 4 hours, that's super high but ah well, whatever). And that's assuming the mining energy consumption doesn't change at all which it definitely would not do in case of the whole world relying on Bitcoin.
    - j3th9n 6y ago
      The amount of channels doesn't give any indication on the potential users. For example a bitcoin exchange can have one LN channel open with the rest of the network and allow many transactions per second for all its users. And I believe LN will grow much bigger than VISA, because not only people will make transactions, also programs who will send many micro-transactions to eachother, something which is far from possible with the VISA network.
  - rspeele 6y ago
    Ok, but according to that site, the total capacity of all those opened channels is only a little over 1,000 BTC. The whole BTC network spends about that much on mining (block rewards + fees) every day. So is 1,000 BTC a lot of money, in which case, it's a lot to spend on mining? Or is it a small amount of money, in which case, it looks like LN is hardly used?
    - j3th9n 6y ago
      You can have an LN channel worth 10 dollars of bitcoin left open for years, over which unlimited transactions route worth 10 dollars or less each.
      - xur17 6y ago
        Exactly - and I can say from experience that this does generally happen. I manage a node that receives significant amounts over lightning, and channels are typically reused with batch "loop out transactions" that free up liquidity by converting a bunch of lightning transactions into onchain funds without closing a channel.
- rawtxapp 6y ago
  The whole point of lightning network is to be p2p, so you're not supposed to know how big it is or how often it's used.
minsc__and__boo 6y ago
Lightning removes any of the benefits of Bitcoin by being a traditional trusted payment system.
- j3th9n 6y ago
  Lightning doesn't remove anything from Bitcoin, it only adds the option to make instant transactions as a second layer on top of it. If you want the benefits of Bitcoin, you can use the slower and 100% trustless Bitcoin network.
  - minsc__and__boo 6y ago
    The "instant" lightning transactions on top of Bitcoin are not instant. They're I.O.U.s that need to clear on the bitcoin network first. Lightning requires that you trust the person you're transacting with, otherwise you need to wait for it to clear bitcoin, meaning you may as well just use bitcoin or a more accepted, efficient trusted system. By trying to straddle both, Lightning is the worst of the both worlds.
- xur17 6y ago
  If you think lightning is a "trusted payment system", you clearly don't understand how it works.
  - minsc__and__boo 6y ago
    Lightning is the same as writing checks. They are worthless transactions until they clear, so you have to make them with trusted parties. Otherwise you may as well just use bitcoin.

What about all those Lightning Network transactions on top of Bitcoin?

by j3th9n 6y ago

What about all those Lightning Network transactions on top of Bitcoin?

https://bitcoinvisuals.com/lightning https://bitcoinvisuals.com/lightning No information on actual transactions performed. But in practice the lightning network is tiny and stagnant. If it would actually be used it would perhaps be more relevant, but it really doesn't seem to be. Except as an excuse for the bad efficiency.

j3th9n 6y ago
That's because of the nature of the Lightning Network. You can only see transactions going through your own LN node, if you run one. Only the opened LN channels are visible for everyone.
- sharpneli 6y ago
  Sure. But the amount of channels gives an indication on the potential users. And it's way way less than on the main network, basically a footnote at this point. Yeah it _might_ grow in the future. But until it does it doesn't work as an argument. Also in order to get into Visa levels of efficiency one would have to have (assuming the 741kWh in the main network) 500k TX per second in the lightning network with 0 energy cost. Visa handles around 1700 per second. So basically if we'd have all the worlds economy in Lightning network we might get close to those numbers (assuming 8 billion people each doing one transaction per 4 hours, that's super high but ah well, whatever). And that's assuming the mining energy consumption doesn't change at all which it definitely would not do in case of the whole world relying on Bitcoin.
  - j3th9n 6y ago
    The amount of channels doesn't give any indication on the potential users. For example a bitcoin exchange can have one LN channel open with the rest of the network and allow many transactions per second for all its users. And I believe LN will grow much bigger than VISA, because not only people will make transactions, also programs who will send many micro-transactions to eachother, something which is far from possible with the VISA network.
- rspeele 6y ago
  Ok, but according to that site, the total capacity of all those opened channels is only a little over 1,000 BTC. The whole BTC network spends about that much on mining (block rewards + fees) every day. So is 1,000 BTC a lot of money, in which case, it's a lot to spend on mining? Or is it a small amount of money, in which case, it looks like LN is hardly used?
  - j3th9n 6y ago
    You can have an LN channel worth 10 dollars of bitcoin left open for years, over which unlimited transactions route worth 10 dollars or less each.
    - xur17 6y ago
      Exactly - and I can say from experience that this does generally happen. I manage a node that receives significant amounts over lightning, and channels are typically reused with batch "loop out transactions" that free up liquidity by converting a bunch of lightning transactions into onchain funds without closing a channel.
rawtxapp 6y ago
The whole point of lightning network is to be p2p, so you're not supposed to know how big it is or how often it's used.

minsc__and__boo 6y ago

Lightning removes any of the benefits of Bitcoin by being a traditional trusted payment system.

j3th9n 6y ago
Lightning doesn't remove anything from Bitcoin, it only adds the option to make instant transactions as a second layer on top of it. If you want the benefits of Bitcoin, you can use the slower and 100% trustless Bitcoin network.
- minsc__and__boo 6y ago
  The "instant" lightning transactions on top of Bitcoin are not instant. They're I.O.U.s that need to clear on the bitcoin network first. Lightning requires that you trust the person you're transacting with, otherwise you need to wait for it to clear bitcoin, meaning you may as well just use bitcoin or a more accepted, efficient trusted system. By trying to straddle both, Lightning is the worst of the both worlds.
xur17 6y ago
If you think lightning is a "trusted payment system", you clearly don't understand how it works.
- minsc__and__boo 6y ago
  Lightning is the same as writing checks. They are worthless transactions until they clear, so you have to make them with trusted parties. Otherwise you may as well just use bitcoin.