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> In times of truly global trouble, nobody will accept bitcoins as payment for bread. That is true for gold as well. (Ofc not 'nobody', just 'almost nobody'.)

auggierose 6y ago
Gold makes a nice filling for your teeth, if you like that look.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- fogihujy 6y ago
  It also has industrial applications, not to mention that it's being used for jewellery. A golden chain with a gold-plated USB key containing a Bitcoin wallet might have a considerable bling factor though. :)
ForHackernews 6y ago
Is this really true historically? Obviously these are biased goldbugs, but there are at least some anecdotes that suggest https://www.bullionstar.com/blogs/ronan-manly/the-power-of-gold-in-times-of-crisis/ https://www.bullionstar.com/blogs/ronan-manly/the-power-of-g... It seems more likely that people conflict zones would be happy to accept gold (with the assumption it will be valuable in the future/in more stable areas) than bitcoins that require electricity, stable internet and tons of disk space.
- XorNot 6y ago
  Conflict zones are generally aware that there are non-conflict zones. The existence of the first world, and detailed knowledge of it's demands, means people know to collect assets that will be valued there. The problem with Bitcoin is it's not a physical thing at the end of the day: nobody mints jewellery out of bitcoin.
burade 6y ago
Gold is a real thing that has value though. Bitcoin literally stops existing if you stop believing in it.
- throwaway3699 6y ago
  So does fiat.
  - iagovar 6y ago
    But fiat has taxes, and state-backed violence and jails. If your state demands your taxes be paid in FIAT, no matter what you wan't, you'll be paying in FIAT (or fined, or in jail, or depending on the circunstances maybe dead).
    - rglullis 6y ago
      Say someone wealthy wants to escape the taxman and spends all their fiat buying things that "have value as long as people believe it has value", like land, stocks, jewelry, art works, antique cars. When the taxman comes knocking on their door, do you think this person will escape by saying "sorry, I don't have fiat available to pay for the taxes, come back next year!"? No, the taxman will respond by either seizing their assets or forcing the person to liquidate into fiat. What makes Bitcoin (or crypto) different in that regard?
    - CRConrad 6y ago
      What's with the capitals? The "fiat" in "fiat money" is neither an acronym nor an Italian automobile manufacturer. (The Italian automobile manufacturer, OTOH, is an acronym, just like "OTOH". One stands for "on the other hand"; the other for "Fabricca Italiana de Automobili, Torino".)
  - lottin 6y ago
    Bitcoin is fiat. It's not backed by a commodity.
    - 6y ago
ChuckNorris89 6y ago
>That is true for gold as well. Not even close. Gold is a tangible psychical asset, a finite resource on Earth that can not only make valuables you can wear or leave as heirloom but is also a really good heat-reflector and electricity conductor needed in anything from semiconductors and precision electronics to supercars and satellites. Without it, the global electronics industry would suffer terribly.
- _alex_ 6y ago
  Gold's market cap isn't driven by industrial use.
- epx 6y ago
  +1, lots of things have been manufactured with gold in the past and would go back to gold if it got any cheaper.
XorNot 6y ago
This is why there is no gold standard anymore. Like, this right here is the exact reason: because collectively it's apparent gold is not worth much to anyone in a pinch. So why bother trading with it as a proxy for your nation-state's goods and services output? Interestingly, I went and looked up what the price of gold would actually be if it was solely used for industrial processes, and it's hard to actually figure out: it's speculated on a lot, but world gold demand in 2019 was 4355.7t. Of that, 48.5% was for the jewelery industry, and 7.48% for technology - the rest accounted for by investment. So industrially world demand for gold for productive or decorative uses is about 2439.2 tons (as of 2019), whereas mining production in that year was about 3,300 tons. So about 45% of world gold demand is essentially from financial speculators. To figure out pricing you'd have to really get into the current mining economics for technological use... https://www.statista.com/statistics/299609/gold-demand-by-industry-sector-share/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/299609/gold-demand-by-in... https://www.statista.com/statistics/264628/world-mine-production-of-gold/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/264628/world-mine-produc... https://www.gold.org/about-gold/gold-supply https://www.gold.org/about-gold/gold-supply

auggierose 6y ago

Gold makes a nice filling for your teeth, if you like that look.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
fogihujy 6y ago
It also has industrial applications, not to mention that it's being used for jewellery. A golden chain with a gold-plated USB key containing a Bitcoin wallet might have a considerable bling factor though. :)

ForHackernews 6y ago

Is this really true historically? Obviously these are biased goldbugs, but there are at least some anecdotes that suggest https://www.bullionstar.com/blogs/ronan-manly/the-power-of-gold-in-times-of-crisis/ https://www.bullionstar.com/blogs/ronan-manly/the-power-of-g... It seems more likely that people conflict zones would be happy to accept gold (with the assumption it will be valuable in the future/in more stable areas) than bitcoins that require electricity, stable internet and tons of disk space.

XorNot 6y ago
Conflict zones are generally aware that there are non-conflict zones. The existence of the first world, and detailed knowledge of it's demands, means people know to collect assets that will be valued there. The problem with Bitcoin is it's not a physical thing at the end of the day: nobody mints jewellery out of bitcoin.

burade 6y ago

Gold is a real thing that has value though. Bitcoin literally stops existing if you stop believing in it.

throwaway3699 6y ago
So does fiat.
- iagovar 6y ago
  But fiat has taxes, and state-backed violence and jails. If your state demands your taxes be paid in FIAT, no matter what you wan't, you'll be paying in FIAT (or fined, or in jail, or depending on the circunstances maybe dead).
  - rglullis 6y ago
    Say someone wealthy wants to escape the taxman and spends all their fiat buying things that "have value as long as people believe it has value", like land, stocks, jewelry, art works, antique cars. When the taxman comes knocking on their door, do you think this person will escape by saying "sorry, I don't have fiat available to pay for the taxes, come back next year!"? No, the taxman will respond by either seizing their assets or forcing the person to liquidate into fiat. What makes Bitcoin (or crypto) different in that regard?
  - CRConrad 6y ago
    What's with the capitals? The "fiat" in "fiat money" is neither an acronym nor an Italian automobile manufacturer. (The Italian automobile manufacturer, OTOH, is an acronym, just like "OTOH". One stands for "on the other hand"; the other for "Fabricca Italiana de Automobili, Torino".)
- lottin 6y ago
  Bitcoin is fiat. It's not backed by a commodity.
  - 6y ago

ChuckNorris89 6y ago

>That is true for gold as well. Not even close. Gold is a tangible psychical asset, a finite resource on Earth that can not only make valuables you can wear or leave as heirloom but is also a really good heat-reflector and electricity conductor needed in anything from semiconductors and precision electronics to supercars and satellites. Without it, the global electronics industry would suffer terribly.

_alex_ 6y ago
Gold's market cap isn't driven by industrial use.
epx 6y ago
+1, lots of things have been manufactured with gold in the past and would go back to gold if it got any cheaper.

XorNot 6y ago

This is why there is no gold standard anymore. Like, this right here is the exact reason: because collectively it's apparent gold is not worth much to anyone in a pinch. So why bother trading with it as a proxy for your nation-state's goods and services output? Interestingly, I went and looked up what the price of gold would actually be if it was solely used for industrial processes, and it's hard to actually figure out: it's speculated on a lot, but world gold demand in 2019 was 4355.7t. Of that, 48.5% was for the jewelery industry, and 7.48% for technology - the rest accounted for by investment. So industrially world demand for gold for productive or decorative uses is about 2439.2 tons (as of 2019), whereas mining production in that year was about 3,300 tons. So about 45% of world gold demand is essentially from financial speculators. To figure out pricing you'd have to really get into the current mining economics for technological use... https://www.statista.com/statistics/299609/gold-demand-by-industry-sector-share/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/299609/gold-demand-by-in... https://www.statista.com/statistics/264628/world-mine-production-of-gold/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/264628/world-mine-produc... https://www.gold.org/about-gold/gold-supply https://www.gold.org/about-gold/gold-supply