8 ms·

Thinking keeps me awake. It's getting worse as I get older. Maybe it's anxiety or something related, and sometimes it's worried thoughts, but often it's just r

by hnick 6y ago

Thinking keeps me awake. It's getting worse as I get older. Maybe it's anxiety or something related, and sometimes it's worried thoughts, but often it's just running through scenarios. Video games, media plots, what I need to do next week. My brain is far more active after 10pm, and I am personally more motivated. I get a burst of energy but it's not really the right time to clean the house so lying in bed has it all go to my head. I've come to the conclusion I can't sleep with an active train of thought going on. It sounds like meditation should help but I haven't had much luck there. Maybe I just need to try more often until it becomes second nature.

hundoh 6y ago
I'm a night owl living on a 9-5 schedule, and I have the same problem. Most of the day I'm a little tired, then at night I get a burst of energy. It's frustrating. I think the ideal solution would be to find a good job that lets me work my ideal hours, but barring that I've found a useful strategy. After my wife goes to bed, I'll go downstairs for an hour or two and read, write, and think. By letting my brain burn off some of its energy, I find myself naturally drifting into a healthy calm tired. I'm never exactly wiped to the point where I can just fall asleep, but I calm down enough that I can still get to sleep at a semi-decent hour. Combined with WFH I actually get close to 8.5 hours by sleeping in later, so it's not bad.
- hnick 6y ago
  For a while last year, I did just accept it and stay up late until I felt more tired, usually around 1:30am. We were both working from home and I'd sleep in a little bit (which is also getting harder in my late 30s). This wasn't perfect but it was better. But now my wife is back at the office and is out of bed before 8am, which wakes me up and usually I can't get back to sleep easily so I've been struggling since. I've tried exercise both during the day and the evening in case it's a physical thing, but it either doesn't help or makes it worse. Sometimes my active brain state amplifies physical aches and pains and itches and it just runs away from me and is very distracting. I think what might really be missing is a sense of closure or achievement. A lot of things in life can give gratification without meaning, but the days I do something like finish fixing the shower or putting up shelves, it does seem a bit easier to switch off at night. Cooking is the closest I get most days.
  - hundolo 6y ago
    I get that too. A couple of things that have helped me with that are a version of "Getting Things Done" (gets tasks out of my mind) and genuine solitude. By that I mean don't read anything, watch anything, etc. No inputs, just your own mind. Just sit there and zone out a little. Nudge your mind with reflective thoughts like, "What's important to me? What do I want out of life? How do I feel lately?" Meditation emphasizes stepping back and not putting judgment on things like that, which I think can be healthy, but this is kind of the other side of the coin and helps get a little more of that closure you're talking about.
  - king_phil 6y ago
    Reading Tolstoi for an hour helps me a lot.
float4 6y ago
I'm exactly the same, only I've done it ever since I was very little and it simply never went away (I'm in my early 20s now). Usually I'm awake in my bed for at least an hour. Sometimes two. I just really can't stop thinking. It's not anxiety in my case. Any people here who were in a similar situation and were able to get rid of it, or make significant improvement?
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  Physical exercise after work, cut out screen time a couple hours before you want to sleep (especially engaging screen time), consider cutting off caffeine earlier in the day (or totally for a while and ease back in), get treated for anxiety (not necessarily medication, therapy techniques like CBT can help in a wide variety of areas). The biggest one for me was physical exercise. Working out hard for 1-3 hours after work (most people can't put in 3 hours, I know) left me sufficiently physically exhausted that whatever mentally engaging activities I got into later, I was crashing by midnight no matter what. Doing this after work was also critical as it helped create a clean break from work (where many stressful or technically engaging thoughts come from for me). Exercising in the morning did not have the same effect.
- kajecounterhack 6y ago
  Aside from (mostly) practicing normal sleep hygiene recommendations, I listen to a sitcom that I've already watched many times using wireless earbuds as I fall asleep. Sometimes I do both ears, somtimes one ear, depending on whether I feel like sleeping with my head turned. I'm normally a back sleeper. Because I've already seen the episodes, they don't stimulate any thinking. They're comedy, so all happy and lighthearted. Well written comedy is funny on multiple-goarounds, but other than some chuckles the point is mostly to help me fall asleep happy. On a bad night I'll listen to two episodes, but mostly I'm asleep halfway through the first episode. My go to shows fwiw are It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia and The Office. Parks and Recreation also works. It's OK to have plot, as long as you already know the plot / have seen the show enough, so you aren't trying to watch the episode. Since some of these shows moved off Netflix I've had to buy them on Google Play store. FWIW Google Play's player is better than amazon video's for mobile (it's basically youtube's player). The wireless earbuds I use are these: $35, https://www.amazon.com/Soundcore-Bluetooth-Headphones-Waterproof-Sweatproof/dp/B07WPFPP5C https://www.amazon.com/Soundcore-Bluetooth-Headphones-Waterp... and they're connected by a cord so you don't lose one of the buds when you sleep (used to happen to me). I have two sets of earbuds now, because I really struggle to sleep without it now that it's part of my routine and I can't risk them not being charged.
2112 6y ago
You might want to check that thread from 1 week ago or so ; "Me and ADHD" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25992390 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25992390 I'm not diagnosing you or anything but that thread put me on to the fact I might have that type of wiring too ... it would explain a lot ( for me ) and possibly some of that ^ ? [ EDIT ] Anxiety is hands down my primary problem, but sometimes some issues can obfuscate others, and cause deductive fallacies by encouraging you to explain everything away under the umbrella of that first cause.
- hnick 6y ago
  Yeah my mum and sister (around 65 / 35 years old) were diagnosed last year. I'm thinking I should go along soon since it runs in families. For some reason it's not that easy to book these things in when you have trouble planning and following through on stuff :) My mum also had insomnia for years. She did get some sleeping pills as a twice a week "reset" and I think a lot of mental issues are exacerbated by poor sleep leading to weak willpower so that could help. But she said the ADHD meds helped a lot with her sleep too.
flippinburgers 6y ago
I really do think that I personally made the mistake of allowing myself to think actively in bed and like a pebble down a mountain it is suddenly an avalanche that feels impossible to stop. I have to be completely exhausted in order to get to sleep reasonably quickly after going to bed. I might try meditation at some point... but yes my mind as well suddenly turns on. I also seem to drift off lightly for some period of time and then I find myself unexpectedly awake again and my mind is obnoxiously alert and ready to grind through thoughts. The next day is usually not enjoyable.
- hnick 6y ago
  Yes me too! It definitely feels like something I trained myself into during my teens. I don't know why but I guess the quiet time lead to contemplation of all my teenage troubles. I do the same on bus rides since I used to catch the bus for school every day and had one of the longer rides. The problem is I actually enjoy it so it's hard to stop. I also drift off and notice it and jerk wide awake. Sometimes with hypnagogia, shadows take the form of bad people or I see spiders hovering or running across my vision. It's a bit disturbing and definitely doesn't help when I get an adrenaline response. I seem far more prone to it when I'm very tired and parts of my brain are shutting down but this one stubborn conscious area keeps me up.
bloodorange 6y ago
I assume you have already considered and observed the effect of alcohol and/or caffeine intake. One thing that definitely helps me is to have a routine for bedtime. A hot shower, bed preheated in winter (heated underblanket), keeping the room cold and reading a book while lying in bed. I typically pick technical material as it's less likely to keep me up all night with an engrossing story. At some point, I notice that the mind is tired and I am able to gather words from the page but not comprehend the material. I then set the book aside, turn off the bedlamp and try to sleep. Usually, this is sufficient and I fall asleep in no time. Some people just fall asleep while reading. For me, it's reading. For a friend of mine, it's watching a TV show. He has something playing on the computer or TV and falls asleep while watching it. The idea is to get the body relaxed (hot shower in my case) and then do something (devoid of stress) that keeps ones mind off the hustle and bustle of one's day. Also, going to bed and rising at (roughly) the same time everyday will also get the body and the mind trained to be sleepy at that time and it'll get easier to fall asleep. EDIT: I naturally tend to drift to a nocturnal routine if left to my own inclinations. The hardest part of what I wrote above is just pulling myself away from the day to go to bed at what most would consider a reasonable hour. If you can not convince yourself that sleep is important and commit to maintaining discipline in your sleep/wake routine, no "technique", "advice" or "substance" will be effective on the long run.
- giu 6y ago
  Just wanted to say that I have almost the same bedtime-routine as OP and it has been life-changing for me. I can wholeheartedly recommend this. From time to time I also add a 5-minute meditation to the routine and it works quite well for me.
- bemmu 6y ago
  The part about reading but no longer comprehending sounds very familiar. If it happens twice that I’m looking at the words, but my mind is going somewhere else, I judge myself ready to fall asleep. Then after closing my eyes I go through the stuff I just read (to avoid getting stressed out over real-life stuff), and after a while will have one or more thoughts that make no sense. That’s the sign that falling asleep will happen very soon. From there on I don’t know what happens next.
BatteryMountain 6y ago
If you are not on any brain altering medication (or other drugs), try chamomile tea before bed time. Please read up on the chemical profile of chamomile tea as it will interact with certain brain medications (start here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2995283/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2995283/). Reducing artificial light after sundown and cutting out caffeine and listening to slow placed instrumental music (key being that there are no vocals/lyrics for the brain to attach to) has fixed my "awake brain" issue. Try to also avoid screen time before and in bed as each "new" thing you see (lets say, hackernews post titles) will activate your brain for a few minutes and keep it awake long after it has seen them. I use a single tea candle and switch off all other sources of light - it emits more than enough light! Basically you want to try to limit any inputs and have a consistent winding down ritual. After a while the brain will accept this new ritual and will immediately get into a relaxed state if the lights go down and it hears a certain pace of music. For me, hang drum + flute music is the best, followed by calm asian instruments. When you listen to the same calm playlist over and over at bedtime, eventually you will know them. When you get to this stage, the brain will get bored with them at first - then you can double down and hum with the song (if you live alone of coarse). Try not to "talk" to yourself internally during your winding down ritual as it will keep the brain awake (don't try to convince the brain it is time to sleep, it will resist and fight back with more awareness). Do this for 2 weeks and see if your night ritual improves. Obviously adjust it for your circumstances. Make it your special me-time. Choose the music to be unique and don't play those songs at other times. If you brain really wants to have a chat, ask it how it's been, tell it you are thankful for it and you will see it again in the morning! Make it your friend, don't fight it. I mean it. Be gentle and caring towards it, like you are it's father/mother, accept it for what it is. The whole ritual last from 20 to 60 minutes, depending on how tired you are and how much conflict you accumulated during the day (conflicts being work frustrations, traffic frustrations, sexual frustration, doing things against your ideal solution, politics/news). These things all put pressure on the internal state and most people relieve those pressures either by sexual release, exercise or drugs/alcohol/food before bed. Having a self care ritual is another option. Sleep will do most of the work for us, but sleep is so much better if is not forced but rather gently simmered in. Fresh bed sheets & hot shower can also affect how comfortable the bed feels. A good mattress also helps. Natural smells also helps, so a drop of rose geranium, rubbed on your skin. Again, if you pick a specific flavour/smell to make part of your ritual, use it only during your winding time ritual and not during the day. You want to let the brain associate the music and smells and other environmental factors with "time to relax mode". Be consistent. The thing that disturbs my peace the easiest is caffeine, even a single cup in the morning can effect my night time ritual. Anyway. The above kind of what works for me, it's not medical/scientific based, hope it helps. Self care goes a long way!
mcjkrw 6y ago
What type of meditation did you try? Try following / counting breaths. Definitely counting in the beginning, breathe out, 1, breathe in, breathe out, 2, breathe in ... up to 10, then re-start to 1. Do it for 20 min before falling asleep. Then as you try to fall asleep do the same. Don't be discouraged if it's not working right away. It has to work but you may need months of training before it starts to work well. The hardest challenge is to be completely cold to the thoughts, no matter how important they may seem, ignore them and return to counting the breaths.
- hnick 6y ago
  I've done a few meditation podcasts where a guy talks and I follow along, and as soon as it ends I'm relaxed but more alert. If my power trips overnight and the noise (fans or other electrical background noise) suddenly stops, I jerk awake. This is the same. I've tried counting back from 5000 slowly on each breath. I got very far before stopping. Going backwards with large numbers is meant to take a bit more mental energy I think. I've done the 1-10 then reset, we did that in Yoga at the gym. I've also done the box breathing where you breathe in and out slowly but at different rates. I think mostly it will come down to practice like anything else. I get upset if it doesn't work but I enjoy ruminating so it's hard to let go. In many of these techniques I was very relaxed but still had an attentive core stopping the sleep from happening.
RHSman2 6y ago
My wife likes to give me advice on how to sleep. She sleeps within secs/minutes of going to bed. This is like someone who doesn't have depression telling someone with depression to 'read a good book' ;) Meditation is effectively what the article is talking about. Not following those thought avenue's.

by hnick 6y ago

hundoh 6y ago

I'm a night owl living on a 9-5 schedule, and I have the same problem. Most of the day I'm a little tired, then at night I get a burst of energy. It's frustrating. I think the ideal solution would be to find a good job that lets me work my ideal hours, but barring that I've found a useful strategy. After my wife goes to bed, I'll go downstairs for an hour or two and read, write, and think. By letting my brain burn off some of its energy, I find myself naturally drifting into a healthy calm tired. I'm never exactly wiped to the point where I can just fall asleep, but I calm down enough that I can still get to sleep at a semi-decent hour. Combined with WFH I actually get close to 8.5 hours by sleeping in later, so it's not bad.

hnick 6y ago
For a while last year, I did just accept it and stay up late until I felt more tired, usually around 1:30am. We were both working from home and I'd sleep in a little bit (which is also getting harder in my late 30s). This wasn't perfect but it was better. But now my wife is back at the office and is out of bed before 8am, which wakes me up and usually I can't get back to sleep easily so I've been struggling since. I've tried exercise both during the day and the evening in case it's a physical thing, but it either doesn't help or makes it worse. Sometimes my active brain state amplifies physical aches and pains and itches and it just runs away from me and is very distracting. I think what might really be missing is a sense of closure or achievement. A lot of things in life can give gratification without meaning, but the days I do something like finish fixing the shower or putting up shelves, it does seem a bit easier to switch off at night. Cooking is the closest I get most days.
- hundolo 6y ago
  I get that too. A couple of things that have helped me with that are a version of "Getting Things Done" (gets tasks out of my mind) and genuine solitude. By that I mean don't read anything, watch anything, etc. No inputs, just your own mind. Just sit there and zone out a little. Nudge your mind with reflective thoughts like, "What's important to me? What do I want out of life? How do I feel lately?" Meditation emphasizes stepping back and not putting judgment on things like that, which I think can be healthy, but this is kind of the other side of the coin and helps get a little more of that closure you're talking about.
- king_phil 6y ago
  Reading Tolstoi for an hour helps me a lot.

float4 6y ago

I'm exactly the same, only I've done it ever since I was very little and it simply never went away (I'm in my early 20s now). Usually I'm awake in my bed for at least an hour. Sometimes two. I just really can't stop thinking. It's not anxiety in my case. Any people here who were in a similar situation and were able to get rid of it, or make significant improvement?

Jtsummers 6y ago
Physical exercise after work, cut out screen time a couple hours before you want to sleep (especially engaging screen time), consider cutting off caffeine earlier in the day (or totally for a while and ease back in), get treated for anxiety (not necessarily medication, therapy techniques like CBT can help in a wide variety of areas). The biggest one for me was physical exercise. Working out hard for 1-3 hours after work (most people can't put in 3 hours, I know) left me sufficiently physically exhausted that whatever mentally engaging activities I got into later, I was crashing by midnight no matter what. Doing this after work was also critical as it helped create a clean break from work (where many stressful or technically engaging thoughts come from for me). Exercising in the morning did not have the same effect.
kajecounterhack 6y ago
Aside from (mostly) practicing normal sleep hygiene recommendations, I listen to a sitcom that I've already watched many times using wireless earbuds as I fall asleep. Sometimes I do both ears, somtimes one ear, depending on whether I feel like sleeping with my head turned. I'm normally a back sleeper. Because I've already seen the episodes, they don't stimulate any thinking. They're comedy, so all happy and lighthearted. Well written comedy is funny on multiple-goarounds, but other than some chuckles the point is mostly to help me fall asleep happy. On a bad night I'll listen to two episodes, but mostly I'm asleep halfway through the first episode. My go to shows fwiw are It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia and The Office. Parks and Recreation also works. It's OK to have plot, as long as you already know the plot / have seen the show enough, so you aren't trying to watch the episode. Since some of these shows moved off Netflix I've had to buy them on Google Play store. FWIW Google Play's player is better than amazon video's for mobile (it's basically youtube's player). The wireless earbuds I use are these: $35, https://www.amazon.com/Soundcore-Bluetooth-Headphones-Waterproof-Sweatproof/dp/B07WPFPP5C https://www.amazon.com/Soundcore-Bluetooth-Headphones-Waterp... and they're connected by a cord so you don't lose one of the buds when you sleep (used to happen to me). I have two sets of earbuds now, because I really struggle to sleep without it now that it's part of my routine and I can't risk them not being charged.

2112 6y ago

You might want to check that thread from 1 week ago or so ; "Me and ADHD" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25992390 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25992390 I'm not diagnosing you or anything but that thread put me on to the fact I might have that type of wiring too ... it would explain a lot ( for me ) and possibly some of that ^ ? [ EDIT ] Anxiety is hands down my primary problem, but sometimes some issues can obfuscate others, and cause deductive fallacies by encouraging you to explain everything away under the umbrella of that first cause.

hnick 6y ago
Yeah my mum and sister (around 65 / 35 years old) were diagnosed last year. I'm thinking I should go along soon since it runs in families. For some reason it's not that easy to book these things in when you have trouble planning and following through on stuff :) My mum also had insomnia for years. She did get some sleeping pills as a twice a week "reset" and I think a lot of mental issues are exacerbated by poor sleep leading to weak willpower so that could help. But she said the ADHD meds helped a lot with her sleep too.

flippinburgers 6y ago

I really do think that I personally made the mistake of allowing myself to think actively in bed and like a pebble down a mountain it is suddenly an avalanche that feels impossible to stop. I have to be completely exhausted in order to get to sleep reasonably quickly after going to bed. I might try meditation at some point... but yes my mind as well suddenly turns on. I also seem to drift off lightly for some period of time and then I find myself unexpectedly awake again and my mind is obnoxiously alert and ready to grind through thoughts. The next day is usually not enjoyable.

hnick 6y ago
Yes me too! It definitely feels like something I trained myself into during my teens. I don't know why but I guess the quiet time lead to contemplation of all my teenage troubles. I do the same on bus rides since I used to catch the bus for school every day and had one of the longer rides. The problem is I actually enjoy it so it's hard to stop. I also drift off and notice it and jerk wide awake. Sometimes with hypnagogia, shadows take the form of bad people or I see spiders hovering or running across my vision. It's a bit disturbing and definitely doesn't help when I get an adrenaline response. I seem far more prone to it when I'm very tired and parts of my brain are shutting down but this one stubborn conscious area keeps me up.

bloodorange 6y ago

I assume you have already considered and observed the effect of alcohol and/or caffeine intake. One thing that definitely helps me is to have a routine for bedtime. A hot shower, bed preheated in winter (heated underblanket), keeping the room cold and reading a book while lying in bed. I typically pick technical material as it's less likely to keep me up all night with an engrossing story. At some point, I notice that the mind is tired and I am able to gather words from the page but not comprehend the material. I then set the book aside, turn off the bedlamp and try to sleep. Usually, this is sufficient and I fall asleep in no time. Some people just fall asleep while reading. For me, it's reading. For a friend of mine, it's watching a TV show. He has something playing on the computer or TV and falls asleep while watching it. The idea is to get the body relaxed (hot shower in my case) and then do something (devoid of stress) that keeps ones mind off the hustle and bustle of one's day. Also, going to bed and rising at (roughly) the same time everyday will also get the body and the mind trained to be sleepy at that time and it'll get easier to fall asleep. EDIT: I naturally tend to drift to a nocturnal routine if left to my own inclinations. The hardest part of what I wrote above is just pulling myself away from the day to go to bed at what most would consider a reasonable hour. If you can not convince yourself that sleep is important and commit to maintaining discipline in your sleep/wake routine, no "technique", "advice" or "substance" will be effective on the long run.

giu 6y ago
Just wanted to say that I have almost the same bedtime-routine as OP and it has been life-changing for me. I can wholeheartedly recommend this. From time to time I also add a 5-minute meditation to the routine and it works quite well for me.
bemmu 6y ago
The part about reading but no longer comprehending sounds very familiar. If it happens twice that I’m looking at the words, but my mind is going somewhere else, I judge myself ready to fall asleep. Then after closing my eyes I go through the stuff I just read (to avoid getting stressed out over real-life stuff), and after a while will have one or more thoughts that make no sense. That’s the sign that falling asleep will happen very soon. From there on I don’t know what happens next.

BatteryMountain 6y ago

If you are not on any brain altering medication (or other drugs), try chamomile tea before bed time. Please read up on the chemical profile of chamomile tea as it will interact with certain brain medications (start here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2995283/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2995283/). Reducing artificial light after sundown and cutting out caffeine and listening to slow placed instrumental music (key being that there are no vocals/lyrics for the brain to attach to) has fixed my "awake brain" issue. Try to also avoid screen time before and in bed as each "new" thing you see (lets say, hackernews post titles) will activate your brain for a few minutes and keep it awake long after it has seen them. I use a single tea candle and switch off all other sources of light - it emits more than enough light! Basically you want to try to limit any inputs and have a consistent winding down ritual. After a while the brain will accept this new ritual and will immediately get into a relaxed state if the lights go down and it hears a certain pace of music. For me, hang drum + flute music is the best, followed by calm asian instruments. When you listen to the same calm playlist over and over at bedtime, eventually you will know them. When you get to this stage, the brain will get bored with them at first - then you can double down and hum with the song (if you live alone of coarse). Try not to "talk" to yourself internally during your winding down ritual as it will keep the brain awake (don't try to convince the brain it is time to sleep, it will resist and fight back with more awareness). Do this for 2 weeks and see if your night ritual improves. Obviously adjust it for your circumstances. Make it your special me-time. Choose the music to be unique and don't play those songs at other times. If you brain really wants to have a chat, ask it how it's been, tell it you are thankful for it and you will see it again in the morning! Make it your friend, don't fight it. I mean it. Be gentle and caring towards it, like you are it's father/mother, accept it for what it is. The whole ritual last from 20 to 60 minutes, depending on how tired you are and how much conflict you accumulated during the day (conflicts being work frustrations, traffic frustrations, sexual frustration, doing things against your ideal solution, politics/news). These things all put pressure on the internal state and most people relieve those pressures either by sexual release, exercise or drugs/alcohol/food before bed. Having a self care ritual is another option. Sleep will do most of the work for us, but sleep is so much better if is not forced but rather gently simmered in. Fresh bed sheets & hot shower can also affect how comfortable the bed feels. A good mattress also helps. Natural smells also helps, so a drop of rose geranium, rubbed on your skin. Again, if you pick a specific flavour/smell to make part of your ritual, use it only during your winding time ritual and not during the day. You want to let the brain associate the music and smells and other environmental factors with "time to relax mode". Be consistent. The thing that disturbs my peace the easiest is caffeine, even a single cup in the morning can effect my night time ritual. Anyway. The above kind of what works for me, it's not medical/scientific based, hope it helps. Self care goes a long way!

mcjkrw 6y ago

What type of meditation did you try? Try following / counting breaths. Definitely counting in the beginning, breathe out, 1, breathe in, breathe out, 2, breathe in ... up to 10, then re-start to 1. Do it for 20 min before falling asleep. Then as you try to fall asleep do the same. Don't be discouraged if it's not working right away. It has to work but you may need months of training before it starts to work well. The hardest challenge is to be completely cold to the thoughts, no matter how important they may seem, ignore them and return to counting the breaths.

hnick 6y ago
I've done a few meditation podcasts where a guy talks and I follow along, and as soon as it ends I'm relaxed but more alert. If my power trips overnight and the noise (fans or other electrical background noise) suddenly stops, I jerk awake. This is the same. I've tried counting back from 5000 slowly on each breath. I got very far before stopping. Going backwards with large numbers is meant to take a bit more mental energy I think. I've done the 1-10 then reset, we did that in Yoga at the gym. I've also done the box breathing where you breathe in and out slowly but at different rates. I think mostly it will come down to practice like anything else. I get upset if it doesn't work but I enjoy ruminating so it's hard to let go. In many of these techniques I was very relaxed but still had an attentive core stopping the sleep from happening.

RHSman2 6y ago

My wife likes to give me advice on how to sleep. She sleeps within secs/minutes of going to bed. This is like someone who doesn't have depression telling someone with depression to 'read a good book' ;) Meditation is effectively what the article is talking about. Not following those thought avenue's.