6 ms·

I agree that one shouldn't support the genetic predetermination theory of sexuality just as a defense for oppression. That's not how science should be done. Th

by est31 6y ago

I agree that one shouldn't support the genetic predetermination theory of sexuality just as a defense for oppression. That's not how science should be done. That being said, I still doubt that people really have a choice over their sexuality. Otherwise there would be far more stories from people who have "successfully" turned straight or something, instead of stories from people who have tried to suppress their true sexuality for years and who just turned sad in the process. It might not be genetically determined, but there are so many more immutable determinants to our behaviour that are outside of our control. The brain is a giant state machine and not all of that is plastic all of the time. It might be determined before you are even born, in the womb. It might be determined in your first few years of life. Or it might actually be genetically determined but through a complex interplay from multiple genes, something that our statistical tools can't catch yet, especially as we don't have an objective measure for gayness. Last, there might be multiple ways someone turns gay.

bsder 6y ago
> That being said, I still doubt that people really have a choice over their sexuality. My response to people who argue about this is generally: "So, when did you decide you liked long legs more than large breasts?" Choose whatever pairing of sexual characteristics drives home the choice to the person involved. Like so many things about "sexuality", at some point we notice them, but rarely do we actively choose them.
- Pet_Ant 6y ago
  > My response to people who argue about this is generally: "So, when did you decide you liked long legs more than large breasts?" Choose whatever pairing of sexual characteristics drives home the choice to the person involved. I feel like there is a clear middle ground. I cannot choose to believe in God, but I wouldn't call it in in-born either. It seems like some things develop through a myriad subtle interactions and subconscious inferences that in their totality add up to a sexuality. I know my taste in women has definitely changed without a change in DNA.
  - serverholic 6y ago
    Just because it changed doesn't mean you had a choice.
  - geoduck14 6y ago
    Yup. Same here.
- throwanem 6y ago
  That's not much of an argument. A preference for long legs vs. large breasts is just that: a preference. What if Long Legs is a meth addict and Large Breasts is the mother of your children? Or likewise. At that point it sounds pathological. That's why I don't like the "gay gene" argument and never did, not even when it was the hot new thing among assimilationists. It's fundamentally flawed, and not only because it suggests an easy solution to the problem by just making sure no more gay people get born. It grounds the discussion in a "we can't help it" attitude that's ultimately self-defeating because it's always vulnerable to the response that "of course you can help it, even alcoholics have AA, do you have no control over yourself whatsoever?" and there's just no good answer to that. The form of the argument cedes to the hostile interlocutor that an excuse is required for why we are like we are. I've never understood why anyone thinks that is a good idea.
  - Godel_unicode 6y ago
    First, you're assuming those things are preferences. We don't actually have any real evidence that your statement is true for anyone, much less that it's true for everyone. Second, people are very drawn to having excuses for things, it's much more comfortable to say there's nothing that you can do as opposed to saying there's something you can do but you just didn't. Both of those things are more comfortable than aggressively replying that you have every right to do the thing you did. Not everyone wants to fight everything all the time.
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      The problem is that if you defend your actions (regarding all sorts of things, not just limited to where you stick your dick) with "because I f-ing feel like it and I'm an individual with free will" you will be inundated with people claiming you don't or shouldn't have free will or that it should be some entity's job to make the consequences of your preference so miserable that you choose something else. Pretending like you don't have agency is just so much more pragmatic on a day to day basis.
      - throwanem 6y ago
netizen-9748 6y ago
Frankly, we don't have much of a choice in anything.
pessimizer 6y ago
You don't have a choice about anything you like. The closest you can get to choosing what you like is to decide that you want to like something, and expose yourself to it enough that it starts to grow on you (i.e. you find something in it you like and use that to reinterpret the rest that you were negative or indifferent towards.)
- h_anna_h 6y ago
  I would say that the same goes for beliefs.
- est31 6y ago
  It doesn't work that way for sexuality. Sure, you can grow attached to people close to you, even in arranged marriages. But your core circuit of which gender you like remains unaltered by it. As for having no choice over, idk, beer vs wine, you can certainly live on beer your entire life even if you (continue to) prefer wine. But will it make you happy? Should a society of beer drinkers force it upon wine drinkers? Note that a partner is a core part of our lives, far more than which liquid you drink.
sdenton4 6y ago
This. Not genetic does not mean it's a choice. The pretty abject failure of gay conversation therapy underlines this. Lots of people went into these therapies personally wanting to change, exactly because of societal pressure and expectations.

by est31 6y ago

bsder 6y ago

> That being said, I still doubt that people really have a choice over their sexuality. My response to people who argue about this is generally: "So, when did you decide you liked long legs more than large breasts?" Choose whatever pairing of sexual characteristics drives home the choice to the person involved. Like so many things about "sexuality", at some point we notice them, but rarely do we actively choose them.

Pet_Ant 6y ago
> My response to people who argue about this is generally: "So, when did you decide you liked long legs more than large breasts?" Choose whatever pairing of sexual characteristics drives home the choice to the person involved. I feel like there is a clear middle ground. I cannot choose to believe in God, but I wouldn't call it in in-born either. It seems like some things develop through a myriad subtle interactions and subconscious inferences that in their totality add up to a sexuality. I know my taste in women has definitely changed without a change in DNA.
- serverholic 6y ago
  Just because it changed doesn't mean you had a choice.
- geoduck14 6y ago
  Yup. Same here.
throwanem 6y ago
That's not much of an argument. A preference for long legs vs. large breasts is just that: a preference. What if Long Legs is a meth addict and Large Breasts is the mother of your children? Or likewise. At that point it sounds pathological. That's why I don't like the "gay gene" argument and never did, not even when it was the hot new thing among assimilationists. It's fundamentally flawed, and not only because it suggests an easy solution to the problem by just making sure no more gay people get born. It grounds the discussion in a "we can't help it" attitude that's ultimately self-defeating because it's always vulnerable to the response that "of course you can help it, even alcoholics have AA, do you have no control over yourself whatsoever?" and there's just no good answer to that. The form of the argument cedes to the hostile interlocutor that an excuse is required for why we are like we are. I've never understood why anyone thinks that is a good idea.
- Godel_unicode 6y ago
  First, you're assuming those things are preferences. We don't actually have any real evidence that your statement is true for anyone, much less that it's true for everyone. Second, people are very drawn to having excuses for things, it's much more comfortable to say there's nothing that you can do as opposed to saying there's something you can do but you just didn't. Both of those things are more comfortable than aggressively replying that you have every right to do the thing you did. Not everyone wants to fight everything all the time.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    The problem is that if you defend your actions (regarding all sorts of things, not just limited to where you stick your dick) with "because I f-ing feel like it and I'm an individual with free will" you will be inundated with people claiming you don't or shouldn't have free will or that it should be some entity's job to make the consequences of your preference so miserable that you choose something else. Pretending like you don't have agency is just so much more pragmatic on a day to day basis.
    - throwanem 6y ago

netizen-9748 6y ago

Frankly, we don't have much of a choice in anything.

pessimizer 6y ago

You don't have a choice about anything you like. The closest you can get to choosing what you like is to decide that you want to like something, and expose yourself to it enough that it starts to grow on you (i.e. you find something in it you like and use that to reinterpret the rest that you were negative or indifferent towards.)

h_anna_h 6y ago
I would say that the same goes for beliefs.
est31 6y ago
It doesn't work that way for sexuality. Sure, you can grow attached to people close to you, even in arranged marriages. But your core circuit of which gender you like remains unaltered by it. As for having no choice over, idk, beer vs wine, you can certainly live on beer your entire life even if you (continue to) prefer wine. But will it make you happy? Should a society of beer drinkers force it upon wine drinkers? Note that a partner is a core part of our lives, far more than which liquid you drink.

sdenton4 6y ago

This. Not genetic does not mean it's a choice. The pretty abject failure of gay conversation therapy underlines this. Lots of people went into these therapies personally wanting to change, exactly because of societal pressure and expectations.