4 ms·

> demotion (n) - a reduction in rank or status But it is a demotion! I think perhaps we view that as a negative thing when it's done as a punishment, or due to

> demotion (n) - a reduction in rank or status But it is a demotion! I think perhaps we view that as a negative thing when it's done as a punishment, or due to factors outside one's control. But in this case, she chose it (indeed, worked for it!), so she must think it was worth it. Her rank is literally demoted. She went from being high on the job ladder ("Director") to low on the job ladder ("Associate"), reflecting the fact that she's still developing the capabilities needed to do her new discipline. I guess maybe if one viewed this as a commentary on management vs IC work, it could be seen negatively -- but I didn't personally interpret the framing that way. Ditto for status - she likely went from having lots of soft power due to her time and relationships in the design org, to essentially starting over in the development org. Are these bad things? I don't think so. Presumably she was pretty clear on the short-term negative impacts of the change, and still wanted it.

arcturus17 6y ago
As I said in another comment, I completely agree with this. I guess you and I are taking a more literal definition of demotion, whereas others may interpret it through the lens of the feelings of shame that would normally come with it, or perhaps even through a more "anarchist" view that no man is ever above any other.
munk-a 6y ago
I still disagree - I think there is too much of a conflation between managing people and rank/status. Once upon on a time master craftsmen were the pinnacles of their industries but mechanization has shifted the framing to place "doers" below "directors" - I don't think this is strictly accurate and prefer to think of people managers as peers that manage the interpersonal side of the business (which I think is quite important to take care of - I just suck at it) - similarly I think that directors, if they're good, are managing long term strategy and that senior craftsmen need to be in on this conversation to supply expert advice on what's possible similar to salespeople being in on the conversation to try and inform what may sell. Org-charts are about management structure and directors weirdly get very highly placed on them while their role isn't person-management driven. I've always found them exceeding strange except in their highlighting of SMEs and to aide in inter-departmental communication. But this all may just be the socialist in me shining through as someone working with a team to make widgets that do their thing well.
- cldellow 6y ago
  I think I agree with almost all of what you said! I don't view ICs as below or above management, but as complementary to each other. I don't actually know what her role was, but I'm not sure it matters too much. Typically, I've seen directors in two kinds of capacity: people management or strategic/technical vision. For both of them, there's a ladder. For example your career progression might look like: - Manager, Senior Manager, Director - Product Designer, Product Design Lead, Director In both cases, "Director" isn't an entry-level role. You don't get hired into it fresh out of school, for example, and your scope of influence is expected to be much larger (regardless of whether you're influencing people or vision) than someone at the "bottom". By contrast, her new role (Associate Developer) _is_ an entry-level role. That's where I think the "demotion" terminology makes sense. I also agree with other commenters who note that it's most likely meant in a tongue-in-cheek way to drive clicks. But for me, there's a bit more to it than just the cheeky clickbait headline. Have you ever wanted to change things up at your company, but felt constrained, knowing that others would perceive you based on your previous performance in a previous role? I definitely have. The allure of a demotion seems pretty real to me.
- Falkon1313 6y ago
  I think 'peers' is a good viewpoint. I used to think of it differently though. Imagine if you didn't have managers, so you had to spend all day answering the phone and emails, sitting in boring meetings, getting interrupted to deal with people problems, making out TPS reports. You'd want to hire an assistant or secretary to do all that stuff for you so you could get some work done, right? Developers have that, we just call them manager or boss and they get the slot above us in the org chart. That's not an insult, just a view of how things are different in development vs. traditional industry. A good manager is very valuable, and a lot of 'doers' wouldn't want that job even with the higher rank/status.
lucasmullens 6y ago
If you're a manager at a McDonald's, and you switch to being a programmer, were you demoted then too? I think every time I've heard the word 'demoted' it was in the context of staying on the same ladder. It just doesn't seem like the right word choice, even if it is arguably correct.
- fma 6y ago
  The title wouldn't be as interested if it was "I followed my dreams to change my career a software developer" I do not view career changes as a promotion or demotion. You're starting at neutral. When I clicked the article I thought it would be about maybe a Senior Developer, Technical Manager or Architect going to developer...which...is kinda what happened to me (less meetings & responsibilities, more coding). But alas the story had little relationship to what I expected.
amelius 6y ago
> demotion (n) - a reduction in rank or status Ok, it was a reduction in rank, but an increase in status (if you ask most software engineers) ;)

arcturus17 6y ago

As I said in another comment, I completely agree with this. I guess you and I are taking a more literal definition of demotion, whereas others may interpret it through the lens of the feelings of shame that would normally come with it, or perhaps even through a more "anarchist" view that no man is ever above any other.

munk-a 6y ago

I still disagree - I think there is too much of a conflation between managing people and rank/status. Once upon on a time master craftsmen were the pinnacles of their industries but mechanization has shifted the framing to place "doers" below "directors" - I don't think this is strictly accurate and prefer to think of people managers as peers that manage the interpersonal side of the business (which I think is quite important to take care of - I just suck at it) - similarly I think that directors, if they're good, are managing long term strategy and that senior craftsmen need to be in on this conversation to supply expert advice on what's possible similar to salespeople being in on the conversation to try and inform what may sell. Org-charts are about management structure and directors weirdly get very highly placed on them while their role isn't person-management driven. I've always found them exceeding strange except in their highlighting of SMEs and to aide in inter-departmental communication. But this all may just be the socialist in me shining through as someone working with a team to make widgets that do their thing well.

cldellow 6y ago
I think I agree with almost all of what you said! I don't view ICs as below or above management, but as complementary to each other. I don't actually know what her role was, but I'm not sure it matters too much. Typically, I've seen directors in two kinds of capacity: people management or strategic/technical vision. For both of them, there's a ladder. For example your career progression might look like: - Manager, Senior Manager, Director - Product Designer, Product Design Lead, Director In both cases, "Director" isn't an entry-level role. You don't get hired into it fresh out of school, for example, and your scope of influence is expected to be much larger (regardless of whether you're influencing people or vision) than someone at the "bottom". By contrast, her new role (Associate Developer) _is_ an entry-level role. That's where I think the "demotion" terminology makes sense. I also agree with other commenters who note that it's most likely meant in a tongue-in-cheek way to drive clicks. But for me, there's a bit more to it than just the cheeky clickbait headline. Have you ever wanted to change things up at your company, but felt constrained, knowing that others would perceive you based on your previous performance in a previous role? I definitely have. The allure of a demotion seems pretty real to me.
Falkon1313 6y ago
I think 'peers' is a good viewpoint. I used to think of it differently though. Imagine if you didn't have managers, so you had to spend all day answering the phone and emails, sitting in boring meetings, getting interrupted to deal with people problems, making out TPS reports. You'd want to hire an assistant or secretary to do all that stuff for you so you could get some work done, right? Developers have that, we just call them manager or boss and they get the slot above us in the org chart. That's not an insult, just a view of how things are different in development vs. traditional industry. A good manager is very valuable, and a lot of 'doers' wouldn't want that job even with the higher rank/status.

lucasmullens 6y ago

If you're a manager at a McDonald's, and you switch to being a programmer, were you demoted then too? I think every time I've heard the word 'demoted' it was in the context of staying on the same ladder. It just doesn't seem like the right word choice, even if it is arguably correct.

fma 6y ago
The title wouldn't be as interested if it was "I followed my dreams to change my career a software developer" I do not view career changes as a promotion or demotion. You're starting at neutral. When I clicked the article I thought it would be about maybe a Senior Developer, Technical Manager or Architect going to developer...which...is kinda what happened to me (less meetings & responsibilities, more coding). But alas the story had little relationship to what I expected.

amelius 6y ago

> demotion (n) - a reduction in rank or status Ok, it was a reduction in rank, but an increase in status (if you ask most software engineers) ;)