4 ms·

Kind of frustrating to see this framed as a "demotion". But it's great to see someone starting over in a new career track that suits them better.

dlkf 6y ago
I interpreted it as tongue-in-cheek. On my reading, the point of the article is that titles and prestige are far less important than being excited about what you're working on. If having a more fulfilling job means a less fancy title (and you can afford the pay cut) you should go for it. Sometimes people working in tech lose sight of why they went into this field. The author's enthusiasm is a great reminder why. Fantastic article.
- tharkun__ 6y ago
  I would agree with it being tongue-in-cheek. The wording could be chosen to not include the negative connotations though. These two are quite different: I followed my dreams and got demoted to software developer I follow my dreams and got promoted from Development Team Team to Software Developer
munchbunny 6y ago
I think it’s just to make an attention grabbing title. After reading this, I’m just genuinely happy for the author. I think that not everyone is in a position to do that kind of thing, but for those who can, I wish we all had that kind of courage and the willingness to put in the extra work to make it happen. For context, my last job change was also a diagonal step down and an overall step up in happiness. Not as dramatic though. I also did it because I felt like I was innately more suited to a different role.
cldellow 6y ago
> demotion (n) - a reduction in rank or status But it is a demotion! I think perhaps we view that as a negative thing when it's done as a punishment, or due to factors outside one's control. But in this case, she chose it (indeed, worked for it!), so she must think it was worth it. Her rank is literally demoted. She went from being high on the job ladder ("Director") to low on the job ladder ("Associate"), reflecting the fact that she's still developing the capabilities needed to do her new discipline. I guess maybe if one viewed this as a commentary on management vs IC work, it could be seen negatively -- but I didn't personally interpret the framing that way. Ditto for status - she likely went from having lots of soft power due to her time and relationships in the design org, to essentially starting over in the development org. Are these bad things? I don't think so. Presumably she was pretty clear on the short-term negative impacts of the change, and still wanted it.
- arcturus17 6y ago
  As I said in another comment, I completely agree with this. I guess you and I are taking a more literal definition of demotion, whereas others may interpret it through the lens of the feelings of shame that would normally come with it, or perhaps even through a more "anarchist" view that no man is ever above any other.
- munk-a 6y ago
  I still disagree - I think there is too much of a conflation between managing people and rank/status. Once upon on a time master craftsmen were the pinnacles of their industries but mechanization has shifted the framing to place "doers" below "directors" - I don't think this is strictly accurate and prefer to think of people managers as peers that manage the interpersonal side of the business (which I think is quite important to take care of - I just suck at it) - similarly I think that directors, if they're good, are managing long term strategy and that senior craftsmen need to be in on this conversation to supply expert advice on what's possible similar to salespeople being in on the conversation to try and inform what may sell. Org-charts are about management structure and directors weirdly get very highly placed on them while their role isn't person-management driven. I've always found them exceeding strange except in their highlighting of SMEs and to aide in inter-departmental communication. But this all may just be the socialist in me shining through as someone working with a team to make widgets that do their thing well.
  - cldellow 6y ago
    I think I agree with almost all of what you said! I don't view ICs as below or above management, but as complementary to each other. I don't actually know what her role was, but I'm not sure it matters too much. Typically, I've seen directors in two kinds of capacity: people management or strategic/technical vision. For both of them, there's a ladder. For example your career progression might look like: - Manager, Senior Manager, Director - Product Designer, Product Design Lead, Director In both cases, "Director" isn't an entry-level role. You don't get hired into it fresh out of school, for example, and your scope of influence is expected to be much larger (regardless of whether you're influencing people or vision) than someone at the "bottom". By contrast, her new role (Associate Developer) _is_ an entry-level role. That's where I think the "demotion" terminology makes sense. I also agree with other commenters who note that it's most likely meant in a tongue-in-cheek way to drive clicks. But for me, there's a bit more to it than just the cheeky clickbait headline. Have you ever wanted to change things up at your company, but felt constrained, knowing that others would perceive you based on your previous performance in a previous role? I definitely have. The allure of a demotion seems pretty real to me.
ballenf 6y ago
As someone who reached quite a high rung on the ladder (from outward appearances anyway) in a different career path prior to development, I think it's really healthy to see it as a demotion or step down. If you stay in denial and hang on to your old title or status, you will struggle coming to terms. Having relatively little influence over strategic decisions is super difficult as one example. Also no one really respects you for expertise you bring from a prior career either since they don't really know how to judge your "stature" in that field. Not to mention that if you mention it much at all, it can raise questions in colleagues minds about your dedication to the new field. All that being said, I couldn't be happier with my change and am so much happier as a person.
arcturus17 6y ago
It's tongue-in-cheek as a sibling commenter is saying, but I'd argue it's also quite literal. She was running the Product Design team at SO, assumably managing people, and went on to work as a staff software developer. I'm not making a judgement on the worth of the different jobs - I've been a manager, I'm now both a designer and a developer, and I personally prefer the latter above all else - and I don't think she is either. Maybe she even makes close to the same amount of money, who knows. It's just that by most organizational standards it is a demotion. At any rate, I don't see any of it derogatory for neither developers nor product design managers.

dlkf 6y ago

I interpreted it as tongue-in-cheek. On my reading, the point of the article is that titles and prestige are far less important than being excited about what you're working on. If having a more fulfilling job means a less fancy title (and you can afford the pay cut) you should go for it. Sometimes people working in tech lose sight of why they went into this field. The author's enthusiasm is a great reminder why. Fantastic article.

tharkun__ 6y ago
I would agree with it being tongue-in-cheek. The wording could be chosen to not include the negative connotations though. These two are quite different: I followed my dreams and got demoted to software developer I follow my dreams and got promoted from Development Team Team to Software Developer

munchbunny 6y ago

I think it’s just to make an attention grabbing title. After reading this, I’m just genuinely happy for the author. I think that not everyone is in a position to do that kind of thing, but for those who can, I wish we all had that kind of courage and the willingness to put in the extra work to make it happen. For context, my last job change was also a diagonal step down and an overall step up in happiness. Not as dramatic though. I also did it because I felt like I was innately more suited to a different role.

cldellow 6y ago

> demotion (n) - a reduction in rank or status But it is a demotion! I think perhaps we view that as a negative thing when it's done as a punishment, or due to factors outside one's control. But in this case, she chose it (indeed, worked for it!), so she must think it was worth it. Her rank is literally demoted. She went from being high on the job ladder ("Director") to low on the job ladder ("Associate"), reflecting the fact that she's still developing the capabilities needed to do her new discipline. I guess maybe if one viewed this as a commentary on management vs IC work, it could be seen negatively -- but I didn't personally interpret the framing that way. Ditto for status - she likely went from having lots of soft power due to her time and relationships in the design org, to essentially starting over in the development org. Are these bad things? I don't think so. Presumably she was pretty clear on the short-term negative impacts of the change, and still wanted it.

arcturus17 6y ago
As I said in another comment, I completely agree with this. I guess you and I are taking a more literal definition of demotion, whereas others may interpret it through the lens of the feelings of shame that would normally come with it, or perhaps even through a more "anarchist" view that no man is ever above any other.
munk-a 6y ago
I still disagree - I think there is too much of a conflation between managing people and rank/status. Once upon on a time master craftsmen were the pinnacles of their industries but mechanization has shifted the framing to place "doers" below "directors" - I don't think this is strictly accurate and prefer to think of people managers as peers that manage the interpersonal side of the business (which I think is quite important to take care of - I just suck at it) - similarly I think that directors, if they're good, are managing long term strategy and that senior craftsmen need to be in on this conversation to supply expert advice on what's possible similar to salespeople being in on the conversation to try and inform what may sell. Org-charts are about management structure and directors weirdly get very highly placed on them while their role isn't person-management driven. I've always found them exceeding strange except in their highlighting of SMEs and to aide in inter-departmental communication. But this all may just be the socialist in me shining through as someone working with a team to make widgets that do their thing well.
- cldellow 6y ago
  I think I agree with almost all of what you said! I don't view ICs as below or above management, but as complementary to each other. I don't actually know what her role was, but I'm not sure it matters too much. Typically, I've seen directors in two kinds of capacity: people management or strategic/technical vision. For both of them, there's a ladder. For example your career progression might look like: - Manager, Senior Manager, Director - Product Designer, Product Design Lead, Director In both cases, "Director" isn't an entry-level role. You don't get hired into it fresh out of school, for example, and your scope of influence is expected to be much larger (regardless of whether you're influencing people or vision) than someone at the "bottom". By contrast, her new role (Associate Developer) _is_ an entry-level role. That's where I think the "demotion" terminology makes sense. I also agree with other commenters who note that it's most likely meant in a tongue-in-cheek way to drive clicks. But for me, there's a bit more to it than just the cheeky clickbait headline. Have you ever wanted to change things up at your company, but felt constrained, knowing that others would perceive you based on your previous performance in a previous role? I definitely have. The allure of a demotion seems pretty real to me.

ballenf 6y ago

As someone who reached quite a high rung on the ladder (from outward appearances anyway) in a different career path prior to development, I think it's really healthy to see it as a demotion or step down. If you stay in denial and hang on to your old title or status, you will struggle coming to terms. Having relatively little influence over strategic decisions is super difficult as one example. Also no one really respects you for expertise you bring from a prior career either since they don't really know how to judge your "stature" in that field. Not to mention that if you mention it much at all, it can raise questions in colleagues minds about your dedication to the new field. All that being said, I couldn't be happier with my change and am so much happier as a person.

arcturus17 6y ago

It's tongue-in-cheek as a sibling commenter is saying, but I'd argue it's also quite literal. She was running the Product Design team at SO, assumably managing people, and went on to work as a staff software developer. I'm not making a judgement on the worth of the different jobs - I've been a manager, I'm now both a designer and a developer, and I personally prefer the latter above all else - and I don't think she is either. Maybe she even makes close to the same amount of money, who knows. It's just that by most organizational standards it is a demotion. At any rate, I don't see any of it derogatory for neither developers nor product design managers.