4 ms·

Fiat currency is fundamentally more speculative IMO because the value is more based on government trust that something not man-made.

riffraff 6y ago
but as repeated every time this comes up, the government trust is enough, because I can pay my taxes with it, which you can't do with my trust.
SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
That's not really what "speculative" means in this context. Fiat currency isn't speculative because companies hold it for the purpose of using it. No matter what dollars are based on, Tesla has to hold some in order to pay the bills. "Speculative" means that Tesla has no current plans to actually use their Bitcoin holdings; the only purpose of buying them was to bet that they'll go up.
- johnyzee 6y ago
  > the only purpose of buying them was to bet that they'll go up. Which seems a good bet, when the government is increasing the fiat money supply by 40% per year [1]. [1] https://seekingalpha.com/article/4392716-in-october-money-supply-growth-remained-near-all-time-highs https://seekingalpha.com/article/4392716-in-october-money-su...
  - robjan 6y ago
    You could use that same argument for anything you can buy with dollars, including the metal used to mint them.
    - johnyzee 6y ago
      Yes? The point is that there is nothing strange about Tesla putting some of their cash reserves into assets that retain their value better ("speculating" as the GP put it).
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    Evidence from March strongly suggests that Bitcoin isn't actually uncorrelated with other financial assets. So if Tesla's concerned about a large decrease in the value of a dollar, there's not much reason to believe bitcoin will protect them from this, at least not any more than a $1.5B pile of steel would.
lm28469 6y ago
Maybe in theory but not in practice. Just look at the past 10 years, btc &co are 100% driven by hype and speculation and still have 0 real world usage besides being a (semi)rich people toy and a good way to launder money / buy illegal shit online.
- wp381640 6y ago
  Bitcoin is a _terrible_ way to launder money. Not only are the onramps/offramps not anonymous - but it has so much attention that entire federal task forces are setup for $30k buy-and-busts You'd use bitcoin for money laundering if you want to stand out and get caught. There's still nothing better than the tried-and-tested old cash, casino junket, money exchange and/or import/export businesses to launder money. There's a reason why the most recent crop of darkweb drug markets have switched almost entirely to Monero
- Triv888 6y ago
  > still have 0 real world usage you need to do a little bit a research, it seems...
  - lm28469 6y ago
    Enlighten me then, I couldn't find anything by myself after weeding out the speculation/pump and dump/exit scam shills. What real world problem is bitcoin solving right now and which isn't completely negligible next to the infrastructure cost of btc ? PS: I'm not talking about the theoretical benefits the bitcoin aficionados are parroting all day long for the last 10 years and are still nowhere to be seen
    - qqii 6y ago
      Here is a BBC article on Bitcoin use in Venezuela: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47553048 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47553048
      - UncleMeat 6y ago
pelliphant 6y ago
When you say speculative, for whom do you mean? Do you mean that it would be easier for some rich person to make more money by speculating in dollars and euros than it would be to speculate in bitcoins?

riffraff 6y ago

but as repeated every time this comes up, the government trust is enough, because I can pay my taxes with it, which you can't do with my trust.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago

That's not really what "speculative" means in this context. Fiat currency isn't speculative because companies hold it for the purpose of using it. No matter what dollars are based on, Tesla has to hold some in order to pay the bills. "Speculative" means that Tesla has no current plans to actually use their Bitcoin holdings; the only purpose of buying them was to bet that they'll go up.

johnyzee 6y ago
> the only purpose of buying them was to bet that they'll go up. Which seems a good bet, when the government is increasing the fiat money supply by 40% per year [1]. [1] https://seekingalpha.com/article/4392716-in-october-money-supply-growth-remained-near-all-time-highs https://seekingalpha.com/article/4392716-in-october-money-su...
- robjan 6y ago
  You could use that same argument for anything you can buy with dollars, including the metal used to mint them.
  - johnyzee 6y ago
    Yes? The point is that there is nothing strange about Tesla putting some of their cash reserves into assets that retain their value better ("speculating" as the GP put it).
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  Evidence from March strongly suggests that Bitcoin isn't actually uncorrelated with other financial assets. So if Tesla's concerned about a large decrease in the value of a dollar, there's not much reason to believe bitcoin will protect them from this, at least not any more than a $1.5B pile of steel would.

lm28469 6y ago

Maybe in theory but not in practice. Just look at the past 10 years, btc &co are 100% driven by hype and speculation and still have 0 real world usage besides being a (semi)rich people toy and a good way to launder money / buy illegal shit online.

wp381640 6y ago
Bitcoin is a _terrible_ way to launder money. Not only are the onramps/offramps not anonymous - but it has so much attention that entire federal task forces are setup for $30k buy-and-busts You'd use bitcoin for money laundering if you want to stand out and get caught. There's still nothing better than the tried-and-tested old cash, casino junket, money exchange and/or import/export businesses to launder money. There's a reason why the most recent crop of darkweb drug markets have switched almost entirely to Monero
Triv888 6y ago
> still have 0 real world usage you need to do a little bit a research, it seems...
- lm28469 6y ago
  Enlighten me then, I couldn't find anything by myself after weeding out the speculation/pump and dump/exit scam shills. What real world problem is bitcoin solving right now and which isn't completely negligible next to the infrastructure cost of btc ? PS: I'm not talking about the theoretical benefits the bitcoin aficionados are parroting all day long for the last 10 years and are still nowhere to be seen
  - qqii 6y ago
    Here is a BBC article on Bitcoin use in Venezuela: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47553048 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47553048
    - UncleMeat 6y ago

pelliphant 6y ago

When you say speculative, for whom do you mean? Do you mean that it would be easier for some rich person to make more money by speculating in dollars and euros than it would be to speculate in bitcoins?