6 ms·

I'm not sure it's fair to call a gorilla a "wild animal" when they've been so socialized that they live in a human home, use the light switch and the bathroom,

I'm not sure it's fair to call a gorilla a "wild animal" when they've been so socialized that they live in a human home, use the light switch and the bathroom, go on walks with the local kids and have deep familial relationships with humans, the only other animals they know. That's not to claim that I have any idea how dangerous or not the situation might have been but "wild" really sounds like the wrong word here. Human culture was all the poor fellow knew, despite not being human.

DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
further, if one has the opportunity to talk to people working in a forensic psychology unit, they might discover the presence of the "wild animal" in the human and that all of us are still a lot closer to that wild animal than we like to admit.
- silicon2401 6y ago
  I wish there was more literature about this, both academic and fictional. I've always found it amusing how far people go to believe that we're detached from the wild animal in us. From conception to some young age I'd say we barely differ from animals (hence why some animals are compared to humans at various, usually single-digit, ages). Then even once we're grown, there are many situations where I think, surely this is what a regular animal experiences too: looking for something and absentmindedly searching, having fun running around with friends, identifying a dangerous situation and either taking action to defend loved ones or flee, etc.
  - gnramires 6y ago
    I recommend Jane Goodall's memoirs (In the Shadow of Man, The Chimpanzees of Gombe, and more), I think they provide a fairly balanced view on our relationship with our near ancestors (what Chimpanzees can and cannot do).
    - jbay808 6y ago
      Minor point: Chimpanzees are our relatives, not our ancestors.
- rbanffy 6y ago
  Still, a raging 80 kg human can be a handful to deal with. A raging 200 kg gorilla is much worse. There is a lot that can be done to assimilate a gorilla into a human society, but they aren't human and the differences, while possible to understand at a certain effort, may end up surprising you. My cat still tries to hunt my foot when bored. If she were a tiger, I would have a very serious problem to deal with (it's hard to buy shoes individually)
  - wsc981 6y ago
    > My cat still tries to hunt my foot when bored. If she were a tiger, I would have a very serious problem to deal with (it's hard to buy shoes individually) But how about a lion? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btuxO-C2IzE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btuxO-C2IzE
  - btilly 6y ago
    Still, a raging 80 kg human can be a handful to deal with. Exactly how big a handful becomes much clearer when someone close to you spends long enough manic and without sleep, then goes psychotic.
    - Aeolun 6y ago
      Trying to hold my 15kg toddler when he goes crazy has given me a fairly good idea of what that would be like.
      - btilly 6y ago
        I would have said the same when my kids were young. When my sister went crazy in exactly the manner described, I learned that I was wrong. Totally wrong.
        Aeolun 6y ago
        That’s potentially true, I have no experience with that. What I was really trying to say though was that I can barely control him now. I can’t imagine I would be able to when he’s 80kgs.
throw2838 6y ago
How about other peoples rights? Not everyone can be around adult gorillas in modern city.
- aezakmi 6y ago
  They seem to do well in Europe with all the subsaharans.
StavrosK 6y ago
Possibly, but consider how often people hit others or throw things when they get mad, and now imagine the person is a 350 lbs bundle of muscles with reduced higher faculties.
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  Also, people tend to "hold back" unless they're in a true rage or have some other diminished capacity (temporary like from drugs and alcohol or permanent). Animals tend not to, which is why, pound for pound, they're a bit more frightening to deal with. I'd rather be in a fight against my 200lb BJJ training partner (who was all muscle, after some sessions I was sore for days as it felt like I'd been hit repeatedly by a truck) than the poorly trained (or poorly socialized, maybe it was trained) 80lb German Shepherd that chased me into my apartment building (he got loose from his owner who had it on a lead, fortunately I had a head start). At least I'd have confidence my training partner wouldn't latch on and deliberately tear flesh from bone.
  - vagrantJin 6y ago
    > German Shepherd that chased me into my apartment building This is a story I want to hear.
    - Jtsummers 6y ago
      I never figured out if the guy got a dog that was ill-tempered, or if he made it ill-tempered. But my apartment building (loved the building, hated the neighbors) had no weight limit on dogs (learned after moving in, I had no pets so never even checked the policy). My first encounter with this particular dog was walking from my car in the parking lot back to the building. I heard it growling, guy held it on the lead while I made a brisk walk (not run) to the building. My second encounter was actually inside. I lived on the first floor, not sure where he lived, but he was coming the opposite direction with the dog. It started dragging him, I hustled up the stairs (I was next to them, fortunately) while he regained control and got it outside. The third encounter was the one I mentioned. I had returned from the gym (I walked there, it was a mile away) and was at the entrance when I heard the dog to my left. I looked and it was pulling on him, then it was free from him. Fortunately it had about 100' to cover before it would get to me and I got inside in a hurry (keypad entry, so at least there was no fumbling with keys and locks). I really never wanted to be within 100' of that dog again, but they wouldn't evict him even after that incident. I moved a couple months later.
lurquer 6y ago
On the multistate bar exam there is a invariably a version of this question: “Susie raised a pet squirrel from birth. It was very well-trained, calm, and seemed to think it was a dog. It would come when called, could do tricks, etc.” There would be some scenario that would follow where the test-taker would be asked to decide whether this indubitably gentle creature was a “wild animal.” The answer is always yes... training, temperament, etc. has nothing to do with it. (The issue comes up in legal cases — albeit, rarely — due to the different levels of responsibility one has towards others when one’s pet or livestock causes damage or injury. For a “domesticated animal”, the owner usually needs to be negligent in some way. But, for a “wild animal”, the owner is always strictly liable. Which is odd in many ways... you may have less liability when your vicious pit bull attacks than when your pet sloth lashes out at someone tormenting it. For, the sloth is by definition “wild” and the dog is, by definition, “domesticated.”
- SilasX 6y ago
  Is there a clear process by which the law will recategorize some species into domesticated?
  - andylynch 6y ago
    Not really- it’s incredibly rare for this to happen - looking at Wikipedia the only newly domesticated species in over a century are some silver foxes in Russia as part of a scientific research program, and pet hedgehogs in the USA.
  - type0 6y ago
    Probably not. Take for example reindeer herding by Sami people, it's usually said that those animals are half domesticated, so you shouldn't draw a line like that.
- bmlzootown 6y ago
  To be fair, I'm not entirely sure that humans shouldn't be classified as "wild animal(s)" as well if that's the case.
type0 6y ago
Usually gorillas are considered peaceful compared with chimpanzees and humans.
- m463 6y ago
  gorilla and mirror videos are a trip. (or the leopard + elephants and mirror)

DyslexicAtheist 6y ago

further, if one has the opportunity to talk to people working in a forensic psychology unit, they might discover the presence of the "wild animal" in the human and that all of us are still a lot closer to that wild animal than we like to admit.

silicon2401 6y ago
I wish there was more literature about this, both academic and fictional. I've always found it amusing how far people go to believe that we're detached from the wild animal in us. From conception to some young age I'd say we barely differ from animals (hence why some animals are compared to humans at various, usually single-digit, ages). Then even once we're grown, there are many situations where I think, surely this is what a regular animal experiences too: looking for something and absentmindedly searching, having fun running around with friends, identifying a dangerous situation and either taking action to defend loved ones or flee, etc.
- gnramires 6y ago
  I recommend Jane Goodall's memoirs (In the Shadow of Man, The Chimpanzees of Gombe, and more), I think they provide a fairly balanced view on our relationship with our near ancestors (what Chimpanzees can and cannot do).
  - jbay808 6y ago
    Minor point: Chimpanzees are our relatives, not our ancestors.
rbanffy 6y ago
Still, a raging 80 kg human can be a handful to deal with. A raging 200 kg gorilla is much worse. There is a lot that can be done to assimilate a gorilla into a human society, but they aren't human and the differences, while possible to understand at a certain effort, may end up surprising you. My cat still tries to hunt my foot when bored. If she were a tiger, I would have a very serious problem to deal with (it's hard to buy shoes individually)
- wsc981 6y ago
  > My cat still tries to hunt my foot when bored. If she were a tiger, I would have a very serious problem to deal with (it's hard to buy shoes individually) But how about a lion? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btuxO-C2IzE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btuxO-C2IzE
- btilly 6y ago
  Still, a raging 80 kg human can be a handful to deal with. Exactly how big a handful becomes much clearer when someone close to you spends long enough manic and without sleep, then goes psychotic.
  - Aeolun 6y ago
    Trying to hold my 15kg toddler when he goes crazy has given me a fairly good idea of what that would be like.
    - btilly 6y ago
      I would have said the same when my kids were young. When my sister went crazy in exactly the manner described, I learned that I was wrong. Totally wrong.
      - Aeolun 6y ago
        That’s potentially true, I have no experience with that. What I was really trying to say though was that I can barely control him now. I can’t imagine I would be able to when he’s 80kgs.

throw2838 6y ago

How about other peoples rights? Not everyone can be around adult gorillas in modern city.

aezakmi 6y ago
They seem to do well in Europe with all the subsaharans.

StavrosK 6y ago

Possibly, but consider how often people hit others or throw things when they get mad, and now imagine the person is a 350 lbs bundle of muscles with reduced higher faculties.

Jtsummers 6y ago
Also, people tend to "hold back" unless they're in a true rage or have some other diminished capacity (temporary like from drugs and alcohol or permanent). Animals tend not to, which is why, pound for pound, they're a bit more frightening to deal with. I'd rather be in a fight against my 200lb BJJ training partner (who was all muscle, after some sessions I was sore for days as it felt like I'd been hit repeatedly by a truck) than the poorly trained (or poorly socialized, maybe it was trained) 80lb German Shepherd that chased me into my apartment building (he got loose from his owner who had it on a lead, fortunately I had a head start). At least I'd have confidence my training partner wouldn't latch on and deliberately tear flesh from bone.
- vagrantJin 6y ago
  > German Shepherd that chased me into my apartment building This is a story I want to hear.
  - Jtsummers 6y ago
    I never figured out if the guy got a dog that was ill-tempered, or if he made it ill-tempered. But my apartment building (loved the building, hated the neighbors) had no weight limit on dogs (learned after moving in, I had no pets so never even checked the policy). My first encounter with this particular dog was walking from my car in the parking lot back to the building. I heard it growling, guy held it on the lead while I made a brisk walk (not run) to the building. My second encounter was actually inside. I lived on the first floor, not sure where he lived, but he was coming the opposite direction with the dog. It started dragging him, I hustled up the stairs (I was next to them, fortunately) while he regained control and got it outside. The third encounter was the one I mentioned. I had returned from the gym (I walked there, it was a mile away) and was at the entrance when I heard the dog to my left. I looked and it was pulling on him, then it was free from him. Fortunately it had about 100' to cover before it would get to me and I got inside in a hurry (keypad entry, so at least there was no fumbling with keys and locks). I really never wanted to be within 100' of that dog again, but they wouldn't evict him even after that incident. I moved a couple months later.

lurquer 6y ago

On the multistate bar exam there is a invariably a version of this question: “Susie raised a pet squirrel from birth. It was very well-trained, calm, and seemed to think it was a dog. It would come when called, could do tricks, etc.” There would be some scenario that would follow where the test-taker would be asked to decide whether this indubitably gentle creature was a “wild animal.” The answer is always yes... training, temperament, etc. has nothing to do with it. (The issue comes up in legal cases — albeit, rarely — due to the different levels of responsibility one has towards others when one’s pet or livestock causes damage or injury. For a “domesticated animal”, the owner usually needs to be negligent in some way. But, for a “wild animal”, the owner is always strictly liable. Which is odd in many ways... you may have less liability when your vicious pit bull attacks than when your pet sloth lashes out at someone tormenting it. For, the sloth is by definition “wild” and the dog is, by definition, “domesticated.”

SilasX 6y ago
Is there a clear process by which the law will recategorize some species into domesticated?
- andylynch 6y ago
  Not really- it’s incredibly rare for this to happen - looking at Wikipedia the only newly domesticated species in over a century are some silver foxes in Russia as part of a scientific research program, and pet hedgehogs in the USA.
- type0 6y ago
  Probably not. Take for example reindeer herding by Sami people, it's usually said that those animals are half domesticated, so you shouldn't draw a line like that.
bmlzootown 6y ago
To be fair, I'm not entirely sure that humans shouldn't be classified as "wild animal(s)" as well if that's the case.

type0 6y ago

Usually gorillas are considered peaceful compared with chimpanzees and humans.

m463 6y ago
gorilla and mirror videos are a trip. (or the leopard + elephants and mirror)