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Certain demographics are less inclined towards certain jobs. Does anyone seriously think it's a problem that non-white females are represented at less than 0.1%

by 0xy 6y ago

Certain demographics are less inclined towards certain jobs. Does anyone seriously think it's a problem that non-white females are represented at less than 0.1% of deep sea welders? Humans are not all equal in proclivities or even innate abilities. The proposed solution by diversity campaigners is usually some form of discrimination, usually against white and Asian people. An Asian male has a much, much higher bar to cross to go to university, get a tech job, or otherwise than any other group, for example. It's discrimination and racism in the name of progress. Equality of opportunity is a given, while equality of outcome is destructive and racist.

marcinzm 6y ago
Most any homogenous group will become discriminatory to outsiders unless effort is taken to prevent it. It varies from subtle to overt but overall makes it very clear to outsiders that they are not one of the group and not really welcome. The group when called out will then usually blame it on the outsiders. I feel forcing affirmative action is not the right move but claiming the group is blame free or shouldn't change anything is also I feel not right.
- username90 6y ago
  Asians and Europeans are very different, not a homogeneous group.
aeon97 6y ago
Are you implying that this:"Humans are not all equal in proclivities or even innate abilities," is the cause of this: "Certain demographics are less inclined towards certain jobs"? If so, I would be interested in what sources inform this opinion.
Gunax 6y ago
The purpose is to give everyone an even chance, not necessarily to make every profession perfectly balanced. There are enough claims of sexism that I think it's reasonable to conclude there is at least some sexism present. If you eliminated sexism and there was still a sex imbalance, no one would care. There is a lot of anger arouns this issue, but when you actually talk to people, just about everyone wants the same thing--equality of opportunity.
- mrec 6y ago
  Unfortunately I don't think your last sentence is true. The article itself refers several times to "equity" as a top priority, and that word now refers very explicitly to equality-of-outcome as opposed to equality-of-opportunity.
auslegung 6y ago
> Certain demographics are less inclined towards certain jobs. This is true, but it isn't inherent to those demographics. I, as a male, was not inclined to ballet dancer as a child. That's not because men aren't good at it, it's because in my culture, male ballet dancers were gay, and in my culture gay was one of the worst things a man could be. So if women are less inclined towards software jobs, is it because all, or at least most, women don't have what it takes? Or because their culture doesn't encourage girls to study that? > Humans are not all equal in proclivities or even innate abilities. This is such an obvious statement that it doesn't need stating and yet you do, so I'm hearing this as you intending to use it as proof that some demographics are not equal in proclivities or innate abilities, in which case see paragraph above. > The proposed solution by diversity campaigners is usually some form of discrimination. This may be true. An improperly considered "diversity initiative" can very much be "hire the insert_whatever_here so we have enough of those people around here", which can feel discriminatory to those who may be more qualified but weren't in the correct demographic, and can feel patronizing to those who may be less qualified but got the job because they were of a certain demographic. But just in case you or someone else takes this to mean we should give up on diversity initiatives, we shouldn't. Failure doesn't mean give up, it means iterate. > An Asian male has a much, much higher bar to cross to go to university, get a tech job, or otherwise than any other group, for example. ... what? > Equality of opportunity is a given, while equality of outcome is destructive and racist. When I read this I hear that the equal opportunity is to be interviewed, but equal opportunity starts at birth. Actually before birth. Does Jeff Bezos' children and a child born into the foster care system have equal opportunity? No. You may argue that the child born into the foster care system has good enough opportunity, and that's the American dream, that anyone can rise above their adversities and make something of themselves. In this case it's a mixed bag. Some do, some don't. You can hear success stories from all kinds of people, but to me it's more significant to look at the people who haven't and won't "make something of themselves" and see if there are patterns. Are certain demographics over-represented in this group of people who aren't "making something of themselves"?
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  > ... what? Medical school admissions are the strongest example of this trend. Given the same MCAT score and GPA, Asian people are accepted at a rate significantly lower than average and something like half as often as the most favored groups. (https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/new-chart-illustrates-graphically-racial-preferences-for-blacks-and-hispanics-being-admitted-to-us-medical-schools/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/new-chart-illustrates-graphic...)

by 0xy 6y ago

marcinzm 6y ago

Most any homogenous group will become discriminatory to outsiders unless effort is taken to prevent it. It varies from subtle to overt but overall makes it very clear to outsiders that they are not one of the group and not really welcome. The group when called out will then usually blame it on the outsiders. I feel forcing affirmative action is not the right move but claiming the group is blame free or shouldn't change anything is also I feel not right.

username90 6y ago
Asians and Europeans are very different, not a homogeneous group.

aeon97 6y ago

Are you implying that this:"Humans are not all equal in proclivities or even innate abilities," is the cause of this: "Certain demographics are less inclined towards certain jobs"? If so, I would be interested in what sources inform this opinion.

Gunax 6y ago

The purpose is to give everyone an even chance, not necessarily to make every profession perfectly balanced. There are enough claims of sexism that I think it's reasonable to conclude there is at least some sexism present. If you eliminated sexism and there was still a sex imbalance, no one would care. There is a lot of anger arouns this issue, but when you actually talk to people, just about everyone wants the same thing--equality of opportunity.

mrec 6y ago
Unfortunately I don't think your last sentence is true. The article itself refers several times to "equity" as a top priority, and that word now refers very explicitly to equality-of-outcome as opposed to equality-of-opportunity.

auslegung 6y ago

> Certain demographics are less inclined towards certain jobs. This is true, but it isn't inherent to those demographics. I, as a male, was not inclined to ballet dancer as a child. That's not because men aren't good at it, it's because in my culture, male ballet dancers were gay, and in my culture gay was one of the worst things a man could be. So if women are less inclined towards software jobs, is it because all, or at least most, women don't have what it takes? Or because their culture doesn't encourage girls to study that? > Humans are not all equal in proclivities or even innate abilities. This is such an obvious statement that it doesn't need stating and yet you do, so I'm hearing this as you intending to use it as proof that some demographics are not equal in proclivities or innate abilities, in which case see paragraph above. > The proposed solution by diversity campaigners is usually some form of discrimination. This may be true. An improperly considered "diversity initiative" can very much be "hire the insert_whatever_here so we have enough of those people around here", which can feel discriminatory to those who may be more qualified but weren't in the correct demographic, and can feel patronizing to those who may be less qualified but got the job because they were of a certain demographic. But just in case you or someone else takes this to mean we should give up on diversity initiatives, we shouldn't. Failure doesn't mean give up, it means iterate. > An Asian male has a much, much higher bar to cross to go to university, get a tech job, or otherwise than any other group, for example. ... what? > Equality of opportunity is a given, while equality of outcome is destructive and racist. When I read this I hear that the equal opportunity is to be interviewed, but equal opportunity starts at birth. Actually before birth. Does Jeff Bezos' children and a child born into the foster care system have equal opportunity? No. You may argue that the child born into the foster care system has good enough opportunity, and that's the American dream, that anyone can rise above their adversities and make something of themselves. In this case it's a mixed bag. Some do, some don't. You can hear success stories from all kinds of people, but to me it's more significant to look at the people who haven't and won't "make something of themselves" and see if there are patterns. Are certain demographics over-represented in this group of people who aren't "making something of themselves"?

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
> ... what? Medical school admissions are the strongest example of this trend. Given the same MCAT score and GPA, Asian people are accepted at a rate significantly lower than average and something like half as often as the most favored groups. (https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/new-chart-illustrates-graphically-racial-preferences-for-blacks-and-hispanics-being-admitted-to-us-medical-schools/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/new-chart-illustrates-graphic...)