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An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

324 points by yutyut 6y ago

neogodless 6y ago
I didn't see it covered in this article and the documentary is unavailable through normal streaming at this time. (Anyone in the U.S. find otherwise?) But what I was hoping to find out was how the identifies of each party was discovered, presumably by the documentary maker?
iancmceachern 6y ago
This reminds me of the single most important thing I learned from my grandfather, or ever perhaps. He was a submariner in WWII, was at pearl harbor that Sunday morning when the attack started, and through the war with many difficult and dangerous submarine tours (he was nearly killed and received the purple heart in this incident during the 7th war patrol https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Saury_(SS-189) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Saury_(SS-189) ). After he got better he was part of the occupation of Japan after the war. My knowledge of him, from him, started many years later after he "retired". Like many like him he never really retired, working as a Sergeant at arms in the Colorado capitol building through most of his Golden years. When young, I would ask him things about the war, his submarine, what he did and saw. He always obliged, but in a way that I have only come to truly appreciate myself until I was well into adulthood. He told me the stories, but always with a jovial, deliberately glass is half full way. I would ask why we're we fighting with them, and he would say things like "they had bad leadership", or "the bad man in charge made them". He would laugh and have a great time telling the parts of the story he did. I've since come to realize through conversations with my Mother and research I myself have done that there was far more to these stories, none of it appropriate for a young child to grapple with, and all of which completely unknown to me until I was "old enough" (are we ever old enough to process such things as happened in WWII? Perhaps I should just say old enough to better grapple with). A watershed moment for me was hearing the song "The War Was in Color" by the band Carbon Leaf. In it, a young man comes across his grandfather's chest of old black and white photos from the war. He asks questions, was it in color? The grandfather replies "trust me grandson, the war was in color". And goes onto describe the vivid details of war. My grandfather never did. Instead he shared with us what he learned living in Japan, he taught us how to use chop sticks, he would cook Japanese dishes he learned to prepare while there, he shifted the focus from war. I never once heard him say a disparaging word about anyone, any nationality, especially those with whom he fought. I knew not what I asked. My grandfather, Irv to those who loved him, had every right to answer my questions. He didn't, he gave me the pieces he knew I needed at that time to build a world view in me that he hoped for our future. A world view where we respect and love eachother for our differences rather than our similarities. Thank you grandpa.
claw_howitzer 6y ago
All wars are proxy wars. The ones who truly wish to fight never do the fighting
- SpaceRaccoon 6y ago
  All wars are civil wars, for all men are brothers
koreanguy 6y ago
lovely Marketing/propaganda by the Americans, still trying to find how the serbs got the F/117, they are very interested because the f22/f35 do have similar underlying technologies which could expose the stealth during a real hot conflict. 528 civilians have been murdered and over 1500 military have been killed, and why don't we mention the F117 dropping Depleted uranium in Serbia. being educated brings different opinions, i can't believe they allowed this F117 guy into serbia he is basically a war criminal by international standards.
sanguy 6y ago
If those two can find friendship I am hopeful we can find unity in the USA. Not sure this administration can make that happen, but I hope eventually it will be achieved.
- andrewflnr 6y ago
  "Those two" found friendship after a war. I'm still holding out hope that's not the example we follow in the US.
crusty 6y ago
One aspect of this that lends itself to the type of "easy" reconciliation that makes us think avoiding war shouldn't be so hard, is that neither party here actually had a sustained interest in the other. Serbia didn't have years, let alone decades or centuries, of grievance against the USA, and vis versa. The same with the US and Vietnam, or Japan, or Germany, or just about every other war the US has gotten involved in. As far as Americans are concerned, not long before whichever war, most Americans didn't even know where they "enemy" country was, or if it was a real place at all. There are conflicts for which a resolution would require one or both sides to compromise on a position they hold, sometimes that they've held for a significant time. Those conflicts are much more thorny and the stories of reconciliation are usually much more personal even though it's clear that the underlying cultural conflict remains. Probably the most obvious is the Palestinian-Israeli conflict but for America, those unresolved internal conflicts that are unlikely to rise to war but just as fraught linger, regardless of the innumerable personal bonds between parties.
- necovek 6y ago
  I think the ultimate solution needs to come down from UN in setting a legal framework for parts of the country to secede. I.e. it's generally an economic interest for separatists rise to power, and I wonder if we could stymie that by making it legal for parts of countries to secede under a certain set of terms (paying "damages" to the parent country, obligating parent country to allow free travel and similar for a preset duration of 10 or 20 years). In the end, I don't think we'd end up with a gazillion small countries, because there is value in having a larger market and freely moving people, even if it might start off with a spike in new countries being established.
  - enkid 6y ago
    The UN purposefully doesn't involve itself in internal politics of its member states unless there is an clear reason to. Setting such a framework would be down right disastrous for some countries and would likely be ignored by many other countries that would be the countries that would need such a framework the most. It would also be unenforceable.
pugworthy 6y ago
My Dad helped enable one of these "after the war" meetups. His older brother was on the USS Phoenix, a US light cruiser that was in Pearl Harbor when it was bombed. His brother survived that, but eventually succumbed to sickness in the war and died. My Dad started digging into the history of the ship later in life, and learned that it was ultimately sold to the Argentine Navy, where it became the ARA General Belgrano. The Belgrano was sunk during during the Falklands War by the Royal Navy submarine Conqueror with 323 lost. Wanting to keep digging more, my Dad got in contact with a man who had been on board the Belgrano, and they became pen pals. And digging more, he eventually struck up a friendship with a sailor from the Conqueror as well, and they too became pen pals. And then he got the two of them to start talking to each other. It took a while to get them talking but it ended up being very cathartic, in particular for the British sailor, who had felt great guilt for what they had done. All three still share letters and emails to this day. There's a PS to this story in a way. Ever the digger my Dad also got an introduction to a gentleman who was a Japanese pilot at Pearl Harbor. My Dad eventually flew to Japan to meet him.
chaitanya 6y ago
Growing up in the pre-Internet era Reader’s Digest was such a good resource due to stories like these. Was always excited to see a new magazine arrive every month. I wonder if it’s any good now. Haven’t looked at it in years.
Diesel555 6y ago
I think it’s pretty interesting to read about pilots shot down in WW1 over enemy territory. They were brought into the enemy’s squadrons and treated with respect. They would talk and laugh. The book The Aviators talks about this a bit. It also talks about how Rickenbacker didn’t want to kill the people in the airplane he shot down (well it got bitter after Lufbery died). He just wanted to shoot down the airplane and accomplish his mission. I think fighter pilots don’t have a hatred for the others across the line. They study their skill to have an advantage over the enemy’s systems. It’s not all athleticism. It’s science. As Rickenbacker said “Fighting in the air is not a sport. It is scientific murder.” I would assume the same goes for the SA-3 Low Blow operator.
spoonjim 6y ago
It’s wild how every time something bad happens to a US soldier it’s a newsworthy event worthy of somber tones and think pieces but when they gun down 40 civilians it’s just another day at the office.
onlinejk 6y ago
It's interesting that Zoltan shot down Zelko, and their "second meeting" was filmed by Zeljko. I'm not casting any doubt, and I realize that one is a first name while the others aren't. It's still interesting.
Kosirich 6y ago
"Sorry, we didn't know it was invisible" * -was the famous "apology for shooting down the airplane" that appeared in the news the next day *-Serbs are know for their strong dark humor
- Kosirich 6y ago
  I also can't forget the famous antiwar/anti-American graffiti that popped up in Belgrade during that time (saw it on TV): "F** you and your curiosity Columbus"
bojanvidanovic 6y ago
I remember this event as it was yesterday, I was 9 years old living in Serbia during that period. It was a terrifying experience. My uncle-in-law was in the division that shutdown the F-117, he can talk for hours about how they operated and all the technical details.
mam2 6y ago
I don't see much the points of such articles. Of course you as a person is different from the work / social position you have and the stuff you have to do or the positions you have to take. It's the same than politicians or policemen who don't respect lockdown.. of course they HAVE to say to the population to respect. it's their job and if they say the contrary many people will die. But they are also people so kinda OF COURSE some are not going to respect it. That doesn't make them hypocrites actually. It makes them humen.
pseingatl 6y ago
Let's not forget that Biden was in favor of bombing Serbia. China does not believe for one second that the bombing of their embassy in Belgrade was an accident.
legitster 6y ago
I'm reminded of something C.S Lewis shared: “I have often thought to myself how it would have been if, when I served in the first World War, I and some young German had killed each other simultaneously and found ourselves together a moment after death. I cannot imagine that either of us would have felt any resentment or even any embarrassment. I think we might have laughed over it"
marcodiego 6y ago
Air forces of the world seem to have their own more strict code of honor, moral or mutual respect. Hermann Goering is known to have enjoyed some hospitality after surrendering[1]. Also Franz Stigler escorted a badly damaged US bomber to safety[2]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnX5HXbRbcA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnX5HXbRbcA [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Brown_and_Franz_Stigler_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Brown_and_Franz_Stigle...
- JBiserkov 6y ago
  Indeed! The Swedish metal band Sabaton recently released an 8 minute animated video of their 2014 song "No bullets fly". After the song, it includes a clip of Franz Stigler and Charlie Brown's first meeting, as well as a clip of Franz Stigler's grandson discovering the song in 2014, calling his mom and her message to the band! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dslO-3GgenY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dslO-3GgenY
shimonabi 6y ago
The joke at that time was Serbs saying: "Sorry, we didn't know it was invisible."
- pydry 6y ago
  Still is. I saw it on a poster in a shop in North Mitrovica, Kosovo a few years ago.
- credit_guy 6y ago
  It was based on a mistranslation though. In English these planes were never described as "invisible", it was always "stealth". Since other language don't have a separate word for "stealth", they became "invisible". A native English speaker would be a bit hard pressed to understand the humor of that joke.
  - shimonabi 6y ago
    I'm not sure. Trump recently talked about invisible F-35s and nobody really knew for sure what he meant. https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a33658771/trump-keeps-saying-the-f-35-is-invisible/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a33658771...
    - credit_guy 6y ago
      Hahaha, that's a fantastic find. Thanks for brightening my day a little. For those who are not sure whether to click on the link or not, here's a little pearl from the former Commander in Chief: "I was asking the Air Force guys, I said, how good is this plane? They said, well, sir, you can't see it. I said, yeah, but in a fight — you know, a fight — like I watch in the movies — they fight, they're fighting. How good is this? They say, well, it wins every time because the enemy cannot see it. Even if it's right next to it, it can't see it. I said, that helps. That's a good thing."
iaw 6y ago
This reminds me of the Soviet blockade of West Berlin. Virtually overnight two sides that had been trying to kill each other were working hand in hand to save the Germans living in Berlin.
- hollerith 6y ago
  >Virtually overnight Except that the blockade began 3 years after hostilities between the US and Germany ended.
  - lb1lf 6y ago
    -Considering the scale of the hostilities, I don't think it is much hyperbole to suggest the turn in attitude happened virtually overnight. I do seem to recall that the Berlin airlift more than any other event was what turned the inhabitants of the western zones around from seeing the Allies as occupants to, well, allies.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
ggerules 6y ago
Thank you for sharing this amazing story. Now I need to go find this documentary.
effie 6y ago
It is so weird that men in army are willing to go and kill each other and later behave as friends "because they have a shared experience". Is it a coping mechanism to help oneself' conscience? Or maybe just an example that we really are just machines following the program of the day?
- mhh__ 6y ago
  Modern warfare is increasingly buttons rather than bullets, so the psychology is different to (say) meeting the man who bayonetted you after the end of the great war.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - creato 6y ago
    There are similar and even more extreme examples from when war was definitely not "buttons": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce I think the sibling comment to yours is a better explanation.
- hellotomyrars 6y ago
  They had the same experience. They didn’t choose to fight each other as a matter of specificity, they chose to serve their country. Soldiers are effectively tools of a nation and most of them understand that. They were both doing their jobs and why should they take it personally? They both came out the other side and if their roles had been reversed they would have done the same thing.
  - effie 6y ago
    Yeah I get that point of view, "I'm here just following orders, no hard feelings". And that is part of what is weird to me in these stories from wars, that people are so malleable and empty and later talk big about respecting the other side. Well respect them and don't bomb/shoot missiles at them then. Also, the article sounds very artistic and fake, I'm not totally buying it.
pastrami_panda 6y ago
For those curious (the article doesn't address it) it was the bomb hatch that momentarily gave away the planes position. I'm curious as to how such a huge oversight in the design of the craft made it to production, since it's widely known that 90 degree angles is a surefire way to get instantly detected on radar.
- passivate 6y ago
  From what I've read, during a strike, the bombs will show up on the radar anyway. So if the hatch doesn't give away the positions, the bombs will. Also, as a layman, it seems like it would be exceedingly difficult to modify the internals of the bomb bay for not that much benefit.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
  How else do you release bombs? I believe that even modern stealth aircraft are more vulnerable when releasing missiles or bombs. The thing is if the aircraft gets to the point of releasing bombs or missiles it has pretty much done its job. You won't get that far without being stealthy.
  - pastrami_panda 6y ago
    From the top of my head using a hatch that folds up into an empty space seems like could reduce the radar signature significantly. I guess better yet a sliding door if avoiding empty space is paramount. I'm no expert but it just seems odd to expose several right angles when it seems it could be easily avoided?
  - spockz 6y ago
    The doors could recess and roll away? I’m not an aeronautical engineer so no idea what that would do with the radar profile nor the flight characteristics of the plane.
  - zerkten 6y ago
    You can only reduce the window that the aircraft is vulnerable, or deploy some kind of countermeasure to provide additional cover. Only in the worst kind of situation is it acceptable to lose an aircraft like this, especially when you have control of the airspace. In most cases, stealth aircraft should be detected so late that you can't mount an initial defense, or an effective counter attack while the aircraft is returning to base.
codeproject 6y ago
A wonderful story indeed, heart warming with a sense of humor. War is really stupid. But there is still an unsolved mystery here, How did the radar pick up the signals? Didn't the pilot turn off all the radios?
- girvo 6y ago
  I believe the bomb door gave him away https://theaviationgeekclub.com/an-in-depth-analysis-of-how-serbs-were-able-to-shoot-down-an-f-117-stealth-fighter-during-operation-allied-force/amp/ https://theaviationgeekclub.com/an-in-depth-analysis-of-how-...
nimbius 6y ago
This wasnt very surprising when it happened as historically The united states is its own worst enemy when it comes to military counterintelligence assessments. Id surmise no general wants to openly admit to the enemies asymmetric advantage. Francis Gary Powers was no doubt stunned to find his U2 spyplane tumbling from the skies in 1960 thanks to what I can only imagine is inherent bias in the war room against the enemy. Its also worth noting the Tupolev TU95 bear left Washington scratching its heads for nearly a decade, furiously revising the numbers for speed and range. https://web.archive.org/web/20081211055010/http://www.aviation.ru/Tu/95/Tu-95.html https://web.archive.org/web/20081211055010/http://www.aviati... in 2006 china managed to tail a US aircraft carrier and emerge in torpedo range with a Song 039 type submarine, a generation behind the US, which was previously thought incapable of such an operation. https://thediplomat.com/2015/11/closest-encounter-since-2006-chinese-submarine-tailed-us-aircraft-carrier/ https://thediplomat.com/2015/11/closest-encounter-since-2006... Those unfamiliar with history text might also recall the day when Iran not only detected but casually landed a sophisticated US military drone at one of its airbases. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93U.S._RQ-170_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93U.S._RQ-170_incid...
- afterburner 6y ago
  Tupolev TU-95, Wikipedia: "First flown in 1952, the Tu-95 entered service with the Soviet Union in 1956 and is expected to serve the Russian Aerospace Forces until at least 2040" Yeesh, I guess they must have done something right with that plane.
  - MagnumOpus 6y ago
    Same for US bombers - the B52 also first flew in 1952 and is expected to serve into the 2050s. Bomb trucks don't need ultramodern stealth, supercruise, vectored thrust etc - they need air superiority provided by other aircraft, a big jet engine, and reliability.
- JoeyBananas 6y ago
  What exactly does this incident have to do with counterintelligence? I think you are using that word incorrectly. I also don't understand what those linked incidents have in common. Sure, the US military isn't invulnerable and there is always risk associated with combat.
aerosmile 6y ago
There is so much gold in here. The human race would do well to explore how it's possible to turn hatred into love. It clearly happened here, and I've witnessed it on a smaller scale as a 16 year old in Vienna. As an immigrant, it was easy to find yourself in the wrong place at a wrong time. That finally happened one night, and the only thing that saved me was seeing a sign on one of the guys' jackets that belonged to a soccer club where I played in a young division (these guys were lifelong supporters, so my small achievement was enough to view me in a completely different light). Deeply embedded in our evolutionary story is the urge to protect people you have something in common with (and I suppose this works the other way around as well). How easy would it be to hack this trait and increase the chances of world peace by consciously exploiting it on a global scale? Think of it as next-gen UN, but instead of focusing on top-down conflict resolution, we would work from the bottom up and search for things we're passionate about and can connect with people from across the world to collaborate on. Rule #1: teams should not be divided on a country by country basis.
- tobmlt 6y ago
  I think we’d have this already/automatically as our interconnectivity has grown. It’s media and government propaganda stoking fear of the other for their gain which actively thwarts it. — up to the point which it can live organically once again in the greater populace. But that’s just like, my opinion, man.
- TimTheTinker 6y ago
  > Rule #1: teams should not be divided on a country by country basis. I don't think I agree. It's great for individuals and countries to be friendly, but I see two problems with a one-world-government system: 1. It concentrates an extreme quantity of power in the hands of a few people. Power has a potential of corrupting those who hold it, and I believe that potential increases on an exponential (or at least an algebraic) scale, not a linear scale. 2. If an evil personage gains power (think 20th century dictators), a single world country would suffer significantly. But having countries separated provides a limit and a check on the potential fallout of that dictator's actions.
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MarkusWandel 6y ago
Worldwide, the sort of divisions where one's own side is all good and the other side is unspeakably evil, are on the upswing again. Having lived through a full cycle of this (old style cold war/thaw/current situation) I try to remind people that we're all humans, and about 99% everywhere have the same instincts to survive and get along. Not everyone listens.
- tim333 6y ago
  Humans also seem to mostly have less pleasant instincts. The theme of "The Better Angels of our Nature" is kind of the promotion of 'get along' and the minimisation of 'smite your enemies.'
- GiorgioG 6y ago
  > about 99% everywhere have the same instincts to survive and get along I just finished listening to The Doomsday Machine audiobook (https://www.amazon.com/The-Doomsday-Machine-audiobook/dp/B077NPHRKR https://www.amazon.com/The-Doomsday-Machine-audiobook/dp/B07...) and it's had a profound effect on how I see our military leadership's nuclear strategy. While the book delves primarily into the 1950s-80s, as far as the author is concerned (he worked as a consultant on nuclear strategy,) the policies have not materially changed since then. Some examples of some things that were eye-opening to me: - The military deliberately hid their nuclear war strategy from the secretary of defense (and thus the president, etc.) for years. - US Presidents often invoke the threat of nuclear attack to force nations to bend to its will - to this day, democrats and republicans alike. - The gov't has done a good job of selling that only the president can order a nuclear strike, but in practice there's a lot more people involved that can launch a nuclear attack without requiring clearance (in years past, this was due to potential communication issues, but even to this day these remain in order to counter potential 'decapitation' attacks. This delegation system means we're one person's mistake (or mental illness) from starting a world-ending cascade of nuclear strikes as other nations respond in kind. I'm under no delusion that the world can do away with nuclear weapons, but maybe we should stop threatening to use it first like it's no big deal. It seems that our military leadership historically isn't exactly in that 99% group of folks who want to live and get along.
shoo 6y ago
Interesting to rewind to before the engagement & think about the odds of them both ending up alive years later: there was a chance that Zoltan would be killed by taking a risky third look with the radar from a fixed position. There was a fair chance that both missiles hit Zelko's plane, a chance that any single missile hit would be enough to kill him or render him unable to eject, and a fair chance of him dying anyway even if he did manage to eject. Also a chance that both missiles missed and there would be nothing to write about.
DoctorNick 6y ago
"lmao you got wrekt, nerd"
x32n23nr 6y ago
Another famous example of how in the darkest hours there's longing for peace and friendship is the Christmas Truce during the first world war [1]. British soldiers heard German troops in the trenches singing carols and patriotic songs. They started shouting messages to each other. The next day, soldiers from both sides met, exchanged gifts, took photographs and played football. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce
- g3e0 6y ago
  For the benefit of anyone not in the UK, there is a marvelous Christmas advert inspired by this event, which aired in 2014 (100 years later): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWF2JBb1bvM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWF2JBb1bvM
- Stratoscope 6y ago
  > They sang Christmas carols, exchanged photographs of loved ones back home, shared rations, played football, even roasted some pigs. Soldiers embraced men they had been trying to kill a few short hours before. They agreed to warn each other if the top brass forced them to fire their weapons, and to aim high. From We CAN Change the World via http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/60/048.html http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/60/048.html: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00311JUGK https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00311JUGK > Across the line, still brandishing his binoculars, Old Horseflesh [a hard-liner] shoves a rifle into Green's hands. "Take a steady aim," he commands. Dodger aims well above Coburg's head, and the lieutenant dives into a handy shell hole. Catching on, the German machine gunners let loose a burst well above the opposite trenches. From Silent Night: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00311JUGK https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00311JUGK
- oconnor663 6y ago
  The article also reminded me of a story from the aftermath of the My Lai massacre: > In 1998, Thompson and Colburn returned to the village of Sơn Mỹ, where they met some of the people they saved during the killings, including Thi Nhung and Pham Thi Nhanh, two women who had been part of the group about to be killed by Brooks's 2nd Platoon. Thompson said to the survivors, "I just wish our crew that day could have helped more people than we did." He reported that one of the women they had helped out came up to him and asked, "Why didn't the people who committed these acts come back with you?" He said that he was "just devastated" but that she finished her sentence: "So we could forgive them." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson_Jr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson_Jr.
welder 6y ago
> one woman said to me, “When you were shot down, I celebrated. I cheered with my friends. But we were upset that you were not killed. We thought you deserved to die.” You can imagine the hush in the audience. And then she said, “But now that we have gotten to know you, I’m so glad that you are here.” I was weeping. > There’s so much misunderstanding in the world resulting in unnecessary sorrow. Having the Danis—a positive, joyful family—in my life has altered my perspective. It may sound trite, but if only there were a way for all the religious, cultural, and ethnic groups of the world to meet and get to know one another in a meaningful way—the way Zoltan and I have—how could we ever go to war again?
nexthash 6y ago
Here's the documentary film that was created about this encounter: https://optimisticfilm.com/videos/docs/the-second-meeting/ https://optimisticfilm.com/videos/docs/the-second-meeting/
jacquesm 6y ago
You'll never hear a story like this about a drone pilot.
- zoomablemind 6y ago
  Speaking of drones and F-117... Somewhat old story, but the "retired" F-117 were not only mothballed, but have been also spotted still flying "regularly". The speculation was that it may have possibly been used in the UCAV context. https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/why-is-the-retired-f-117-nighthawk-still-flying-1544383008 https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/why-is-the-retired-f-117-n...

324 points by yutyut 6y ago

I didn't see it covered in this article and the documentary is unavailable through normal streaming at this time. (Anyone in the U.S. find otherwise?) But what I was hoping to find out was how the identifies of each party was discovered, presumably by the documentary maker?

iancmceachern 6y ago

This reminds me of the single most important thing I learned from my grandfather, or ever perhaps. He was a submariner in WWII, was at pearl harbor that Sunday morning when the attack started, and through the war with many difficult and dangerous submarine tours (he was nearly killed and received the purple heart in this incident during the 7th war patrol https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Saury_(SS-189) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Saury_(SS-189) ). After he got better he was part of the occupation of Japan after the war. My knowledge of him, from him, started many years later after he "retired". Like many like him he never really retired, working as a Sergeant at arms in the Colorado capitol building through most of his Golden years. When young, I would ask him things about the war, his submarine, what he did and saw. He always obliged, but in a way that I have only come to truly appreciate myself until I was well into adulthood. He told me the stories, but always with a jovial, deliberately glass is half full way. I would ask why we're we fighting with them, and he would say things like "they had bad leadership", or "the bad man in charge made them". He would laugh and have a great time telling the parts of the story he did. I've since come to realize through conversations with my Mother and research I myself have done that there was far more to these stories, none of it appropriate for a young child to grapple with, and all of which completely unknown to me until I was "old enough" (are we ever old enough to process such things as happened in WWII? Perhaps I should just say old enough to better grapple with). A watershed moment for me was hearing the song "The War Was in Color" by the band Carbon Leaf. In it, a young man comes across his grandfather's chest of old black and white photos from the war. He asks questions, was it in color? The grandfather replies "trust me grandson, the war was in color". And goes onto describe the vivid details of war. My grandfather never did. Instead he shared with us what he learned living in Japan, he taught us how to use chop sticks, he would cook Japanese dishes he learned to prepare while there, he shifted the focus from war. I never once heard him say a disparaging word about anyone, any nationality, especially those with whom he fought. I knew not what I asked. My grandfather, Irv to those who loved him, had every right to answer my questions. He didn't, he gave me the pieces he knew I needed at that time to build a world view in me that he hoped for our future. A world view where we respect and love eachother for our differences rather than our similarities. Thank you grandpa.

claw_howitzer 6y ago

All wars are proxy wars. The ones who truly wish to fight never do the fighting

SpaceRaccoon 6y ago
All wars are civil wars, for all men are brothers

koreanguy 6y ago

lovely Marketing/propaganda by the Americans, still trying to find how the serbs got the F/117, they are very interested because the f22/f35 do have similar underlying technologies which could expose the stealth during a real hot conflict. 528 civilians have been murdered and over 1500 military have been killed, and why don't we mention the F117 dropping Depleted uranium in Serbia. being educated brings different opinions, i can't believe they allowed this F117 guy into serbia he is basically a war criminal by international standards.

sanguy 6y ago

If those two can find friendship I am hopeful we can find unity in the USA. Not sure this administration can make that happen, but I hope eventually it will be achieved.

andrewflnr 6y ago
"Those two" found friendship after a war. I'm still holding out hope that's not the example we follow in the US.

crusty 6y ago

One aspect of this that lends itself to the type of "easy" reconciliation that makes us think avoiding war shouldn't be so hard, is that neither party here actually had a sustained interest in the other. Serbia didn't have years, let alone decades or centuries, of grievance against the USA, and vis versa. The same with the US and Vietnam, or Japan, or Germany, or just about every other war the US has gotten involved in. As far as Americans are concerned, not long before whichever war, most Americans didn't even know where they "enemy" country was, or if it was a real place at all. There are conflicts for which a resolution would require one or both sides to compromise on a position they hold, sometimes that they've held for a significant time. Those conflicts are much more thorny and the stories of reconciliation are usually much more personal even though it's clear that the underlying cultural conflict remains. Probably the most obvious is the Palestinian-Israeli conflict but for America, those unresolved internal conflicts that are unlikely to rise to war but just as fraught linger, regardless of the innumerable personal bonds between parties.

necovek 6y ago
I think the ultimate solution needs to come down from UN in setting a legal framework for parts of the country to secede. I.e. it's generally an economic interest for separatists rise to power, and I wonder if we could stymie that by making it legal for parts of countries to secede under a certain set of terms (paying "damages" to the parent country, obligating parent country to allow free travel and similar for a preset duration of 10 or 20 years). In the end, I don't think we'd end up with a gazillion small countries, because there is value in having a larger market and freely moving people, even if it might start off with a spike in new countries being established.
- enkid 6y ago
  The UN purposefully doesn't involve itself in internal politics of its member states unless there is an clear reason to. Setting such a framework would be down right disastrous for some countries and would likely be ignored by many other countries that would be the countries that would need such a framework the most. It would also be unenforceable.

pugworthy 6y ago

My Dad helped enable one of these "after the war" meetups. His older brother was on the USS Phoenix, a US light cruiser that was in Pearl Harbor when it was bombed. His brother survived that, but eventually succumbed to sickness in the war and died. My Dad started digging into the history of the ship later in life, and learned that it was ultimately sold to the Argentine Navy, where it became the ARA General Belgrano. The Belgrano was sunk during during the Falklands War by the Royal Navy submarine Conqueror with 323 lost. Wanting to keep digging more, my Dad got in contact with a man who had been on board the Belgrano, and they became pen pals. And digging more, he eventually struck up a friendship with a sailor from the Conqueror as well, and they too became pen pals. And then he got the two of them to start talking to each other. It took a while to get them talking but it ended up being very cathartic, in particular for the British sailor, who had felt great guilt for what they had done. All three still share letters and emails to this day. There's a PS to this story in a way. Ever the digger my Dad also got an introduction to a gentleman who was a Japanese pilot at Pearl Harbor. My Dad eventually flew to Japan to meet him.

chaitanya 6y ago

Growing up in the pre-Internet era Reader’s Digest was such a good resource due to stories like these. Was always excited to see a new magazine arrive every month. I wonder if it’s any good now. Haven’t looked at it in years.

Diesel555 6y ago

I think it’s pretty interesting to read about pilots shot down in WW1 over enemy territory. They were brought into the enemy’s squadrons and treated with respect. They would talk and laugh. The book The Aviators talks about this a bit. It also talks about how Rickenbacker didn’t want to kill the people in the airplane he shot down (well it got bitter after Lufbery died). He just wanted to shoot down the airplane and accomplish his mission. I think fighter pilots don’t have a hatred for the others across the line. They study their skill to have an advantage over the enemy’s systems. It’s not all athleticism. It’s science. As Rickenbacker said “Fighting in the air is not a sport. It is scientific murder.” I would assume the same goes for the SA-3 Low Blow operator.

spoonjim 6y ago

It’s wild how every time something bad happens to a US soldier it’s a newsworthy event worthy of somber tones and think pieces but when they gun down 40 civilians it’s just another day at the office.

onlinejk 6y ago

It's interesting that Zoltan shot down Zelko, and their "second meeting" was filmed by Zeljko. I'm not casting any doubt, and I realize that one is a first name while the others aren't. It's still interesting.

Kosirich 6y ago

"Sorry, we didn't know it was invisible" * -was the famous "apology for shooting down the airplane" that appeared in the news the next day *-Serbs are know for their strong dark humor

Kosirich 6y ago
I also can't forget the famous antiwar/anti-American graffiti that popped up in Belgrade during that time (saw it on TV): "F** you and your curiosity Columbus"

bojanvidanovic 6y ago

I remember this event as it was yesterday, I was 9 years old living in Serbia during that period. It was a terrifying experience. My uncle-in-law was in the division that shutdown the F-117, he can talk for hours about how they operated and all the technical details.

mam2 6y ago

I don't see much the points of such articles. Of course you as a person is different from the work / social position you have and the stuff you have to do or the positions you have to take. It's the same than politicians or policemen who don't respect lockdown.. of course they HAVE to say to the population to respect. it's their job and if they say the contrary many people will die. But they are also people so kinda OF COURSE some are not going to respect it. That doesn't make them hypocrites actually. It makes them humen.

pseingatl 6y ago

Let's not forget that Biden was in favor of bombing Serbia. China does not believe for one second that the bombing of their embassy in Belgrade was an accident.

legitster 6y ago

I'm reminded of something C.S Lewis shared: “I have often thought to myself how it would have been if, when I served in the first World War, I and some young German had killed each other simultaneously and found ourselves together a moment after death. I cannot imagine that either of us would have felt any resentment or even any embarrassment. I think we might have laughed over it"

marcodiego 6y ago

Air forces of the world seem to have their own more strict code of honor, moral or mutual respect. Hermann Goering is known to have enjoyed some hospitality after surrendering[1]. Also Franz Stigler escorted a badly damaged US bomber to safety[2]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnX5HXbRbcA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnX5HXbRbcA [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Brown_and_Franz_Stigler_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Brown_and_Franz_Stigle...

JBiserkov 6y ago
Indeed! The Swedish metal band Sabaton recently released an 8 minute animated video of their 2014 song "No bullets fly". After the song, it includes a clip of Franz Stigler and Charlie Brown's first meeting, as well as a clip of Franz Stigler's grandson discovering the song in 2014, calling his mom and her message to the band! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dslO-3GgenY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dslO-3GgenY

shimonabi 6y ago

The joke at that time was Serbs saying: "Sorry, we didn't know it was invisible."

pydry 6y ago
Still is. I saw it on a poster in a shop in North Mitrovica, Kosovo a few years ago.
credit_guy 6y ago
It was based on a mistranslation though. In English these planes were never described as "invisible", it was always "stealth". Since other language don't have a separate word for "stealth", they became "invisible". A native English speaker would be a bit hard pressed to understand the humor of that joke.
- shimonabi 6y ago
  I'm not sure. Trump recently talked about invisible F-35s and nobody really knew for sure what he meant. https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a33658771/trump-keeps-saying-the-f-35-is-invisible/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a33658771...
  - credit_guy 6y ago
    Hahaha, that's a fantastic find. Thanks for brightening my day a little. For those who are not sure whether to click on the link or not, here's a little pearl from the former Commander in Chief: "I was asking the Air Force guys, I said, how good is this plane? They said, well, sir, you can't see it. I said, yeah, but in a fight — you know, a fight — like I watch in the movies — they fight, they're fighting. How good is this? They say, well, it wins every time because the enemy cannot see it. Even if it's right next to it, it can't see it. I said, that helps. That's a good thing."

iaw 6y ago

This reminds me of the Soviet blockade of West Berlin. Virtually overnight two sides that had been trying to kill each other were working hand in hand to save the Germans living in Berlin.

hollerith 6y ago
>Virtually overnight Except that the blockade began 3 years after hostilities between the US and Germany ended.
- lb1lf 6y ago
  -Considering the scale of the hostilities, I don't think it is much hyperbole to suggest the turn in attitude happened virtually overnight. I do seem to recall that the Berlin airlift more than any other event was what turned the inhabitants of the western zones around from seeing the Allies as occupants to, well, allies.
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ggerules 6y ago

Thank you for sharing this amazing story. Now I need to go find this documentary.

effie 6y ago

It is so weird that men in army are willing to go and kill each other and later behave as friends "because they have a shared experience". Is it a coping mechanism to help oneself' conscience? Or maybe just an example that we really are just machines following the program of the day?

mhh__ 6y ago
Modern warfare is increasingly buttons rather than bullets, so the psychology is different to (say) meeting the man who bayonetted you after the end of the great war.
- deleted 6y ago
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- creato 6y ago
  There are similar and even more extreme examples from when war was definitely not "buttons": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce I think the sibling comment to yours is a better explanation.
hellotomyrars 6y ago
They had the same experience. They didn’t choose to fight each other as a matter of specificity, they chose to serve their country. Soldiers are effectively tools of a nation and most of them understand that. They were both doing their jobs and why should they take it personally? They both came out the other side and if their roles had been reversed they would have done the same thing.
- effie 6y ago
  Yeah I get that point of view, "I'm here just following orders, no hard feelings". And that is part of what is weird to me in these stories from wars, that people are so malleable and empty and later talk big about respecting the other side. Well respect them and don't bomb/shoot missiles at them then. Also, the article sounds very artistic and fake, I'm not totally buying it.

pastrami_panda 6y ago

For those curious (the article doesn't address it) it was the bomb hatch that momentarily gave away the planes position. I'm curious as to how such a huge oversight in the design of the craft made it to production, since it's widely known that 90 degree angles is a surefire way to get instantly detected on radar.

passivate 6y ago
From what I've read, during a strike, the bombs will show up on the radar anyway. So if the hatch doesn't give away the positions, the bombs will. Also, as a layman, it seems like it would be exceedingly difficult to modify the internals of the bomb bay for not that much benefit.
2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
How else do you release bombs? I believe that even modern stealth aircraft are more vulnerable when releasing missiles or bombs. The thing is if the aircraft gets to the point of releasing bombs or missiles it has pretty much done its job. You won't get that far without being stealthy.
- pastrami_panda 6y ago
  From the top of my head using a hatch that folds up into an empty space seems like could reduce the radar signature significantly. I guess better yet a sliding door if avoiding empty space is paramount. I'm no expert but it just seems odd to expose several right angles when it seems it could be easily avoided?
- spockz 6y ago
  The doors could recess and roll away? I’m not an aeronautical engineer so no idea what that would do with the radar profile nor the flight characteristics of the plane.
- zerkten 6y ago
  You can only reduce the window that the aircraft is vulnerable, or deploy some kind of countermeasure to provide additional cover. Only in the worst kind of situation is it acceptable to lose an aircraft like this, especially when you have control of the airspace. In most cases, stealth aircraft should be detected so late that you can't mount an initial defense, or an effective counter attack while the aircraft is returning to base.

codeproject 6y ago

A wonderful story indeed, heart warming with a sense of humor. War is really stupid. But there is still an unsolved mystery here, How did the radar pick up the signals? Didn't the pilot turn off all the radios?

girvo 6y ago
I believe the bomb door gave him away https://theaviationgeekclub.com/an-in-depth-analysis-of-how-serbs-were-able-to-shoot-down-an-f-117-stealth-fighter-during-operation-allied-force/amp/ https://theaviationgeekclub.com/an-in-depth-analysis-of-how-...

nimbius 6y ago

This wasnt very surprising when it happened as historically The united states is its own worst enemy when it comes to military counterintelligence assessments. Id surmise no general wants to openly admit to the enemies asymmetric advantage. Francis Gary Powers was no doubt stunned to find his U2 spyplane tumbling from the skies in 1960 thanks to what I can only imagine is inherent bias in the war room against the enemy. Its also worth noting the Tupolev TU95 bear left Washington scratching its heads for nearly a decade, furiously revising the numbers for speed and range. https://web.archive.org/web/20081211055010/http://www.aviation.ru/Tu/95/Tu-95.html https://web.archive.org/web/20081211055010/http://www.aviati... in 2006 china managed to tail a US aircraft carrier and emerge in torpedo range with a Song 039 type submarine, a generation behind the US, which was previously thought incapable of such an operation. https://thediplomat.com/2015/11/closest-encounter-since-2006-chinese-submarine-tailed-us-aircraft-carrier/ https://thediplomat.com/2015/11/closest-encounter-since-2006... Those unfamiliar with history text might also recall the day when Iran not only detected but casually landed a sophisticated US military drone at one of its airbases. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93U.S._RQ-170_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93U.S._RQ-170_incid...

afterburner 6y ago
Tupolev TU-95, Wikipedia: "First flown in 1952, the Tu-95 entered service with the Soviet Union in 1956 and is expected to serve the Russian Aerospace Forces until at least 2040" Yeesh, I guess they must have done something right with that plane.
- MagnumOpus 6y ago
  Same for US bombers - the B52 also first flew in 1952 and is expected to serve into the 2050s. Bomb trucks don't need ultramodern stealth, supercruise, vectored thrust etc - they need air superiority provided by other aircraft, a big jet engine, and reliability.
JoeyBananas 6y ago
What exactly does this incident have to do with counterintelligence? I think you are using that word incorrectly. I also don't understand what those linked incidents have in common. Sure, the US military isn't invulnerable and there is always risk associated with combat.

aerosmile 6y ago

There is so much gold in here. The human race would do well to explore how it's possible to turn hatred into love. It clearly happened here, and I've witnessed it on a smaller scale as a 16 year old in Vienna. As an immigrant, it was easy to find yourself in the wrong place at a wrong time. That finally happened one night, and the only thing that saved me was seeing a sign on one of the guys' jackets that belonged to a soccer club where I played in a young division (these guys were lifelong supporters, so my small achievement was enough to view me in a completely different light). Deeply embedded in our evolutionary story is the urge to protect people you have something in common with (and I suppose this works the other way around as well). How easy would it be to hack this trait and increase the chances of world peace by consciously exploiting it on a global scale? Think of it as next-gen UN, but instead of focusing on top-down conflict resolution, we would work from the bottom up and search for things we're passionate about and can connect with people from across the world to collaborate on. Rule #1: teams should not be divided on a country by country basis.

tobmlt 6y ago
I think we’d have this already/automatically as our interconnectivity has grown. It’s media and government propaganda stoking fear of the other for their gain which actively thwarts it. — up to the point which it can live organically once again in the greater populace. But that’s just like, my opinion, man.
TimTheTinker 6y ago
> Rule #1: teams should not be divided on a country by country basis. I don't think I agree. It's great for individuals and countries to be friendly, but I see two problems with a one-world-government system: 1. It concentrates an extreme quantity of power in the hands of a few people. Power has a potential of corrupting those who hold it, and I believe that potential increases on an exponential (or at least an algebraic) scale, not a linear scale. 2. If an evil personage gains power (think 20th century dictators), a single world country would suffer significantly. But having countries separated provides a limit and a check on the potential fallout of that dictator's actions.
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MarkusWandel 6y ago

Worldwide, the sort of divisions where one's own side is all good and the other side is unspeakably evil, are on the upswing again. Having lived through a full cycle of this (old style cold war/thaw/current situation) I try to remind people that we're all humans, and about 99% everywhere have the same instincts to survive and get along. Not everyone listens.

tim333 6y ago
Humans also seem to mostly have less pleasant instincts. The theme of "The Better Angels of our Nature" is kind of the promotion of 'get along' and the minimisation of 'smite your enemies.'
GiorgioG 6y ago
> about 99% everywhere have the same instincts to survive and get along I just finished listening to The Doomsday Machine audiobook (https://www.amazon.com/The-Doomsday-Machine-audiobook/dp/B077NPHRKR https://www.amazon.com/The-Doomsday-Machine-audiobook/dp/B07...) and it's had a profound effect on how I see our military leadership's nuclear strategy. While the book delves primarily into the 1950s-80s, as far as the author is concerned (he worked as a consultant on nuclear strategy,) the policies have not materially changed since then. Some examples of some things that were eye-opening to me: - The military deliberately hid their nuclear war strategy from the secretary of defense (and thus the president, etc.) for years. - US Presidents often invoke the threat of nuclear attack to force nations to bend to its will - to this day, democrats and republicans alike. - The gov't has done a good job of selling that only the president can order a nuclear strike, but in practice there's a lot more people involved that can launch a nuclear attack without requiring clearance (in years past, this was due to potential communication issues, but even to this day these remain in order to counter potential 'decapitation' attacks. This delegation system means we're one person's mistake (or mental illness) from starting a world-ending cascade of nuclear strikes as other nations respond in kind. I'm under no delusion that the world can do away with nuclear weapons, but maybe we should stop threatening to use it first like it's no big deal. It seems that our military leadership historically isn't exactly in that 99% group of folks who want to live and get along.

shoo 6y ago

Interesting to rewind to before the engagement & think about the odds of them both ending up alive years later: there was a chance that Zoltan would be killed by taking a risky third look with the radar from a fixed position. There was a fair chance that both missiles hit Zelko's plane, a chance that any single missile hit would be enough to kill him or render him unable to eject, and a fair chance of him dying anyway even if he did manage to eject. Also a chance that both missiles missed and there would be nothing to write about.

DoctorNick 6y ago

"lmao you got wrekt, nerd"

x32n23nr 6y ago

Another famous example of how in the darkest hours there's longing for peace and friendship is the Christmas Truce during the first world war [1]. British soldiers heard German troops in the trenches singing carols and patriotic songs. They started shouting messages to each other. The next day, soldiers from both sides met, exchanged gifts, took photographs and played football. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce

g3e0 6y ago
For the benefit of anyone not in the UK, there is a marvelous Christmas advert inspired by this event, which aired in 2014 (100 years later): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWF2JBb1bvM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWF2JBb1bvM
Stratoscope 6y ago
> They sang Christmas carols, exchanged photographs of loved ones back home, shared rations, played football, even roasted some pigs. Soldiers embraced men they had been trying to kill a few short hours before. They agreed to warn each other if the top brass forced them to fire their weapons, and to aim high. From We CAN Change the World via http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/60/048.html http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/60/048.html: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00311JUGK https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00311JUGK > Across the line, still brandishing his binoculars, Old Horseflesh [a hard-liner] shoves a rifle into Green's hands. "Take a steady aim," he commands. Dodger aims well above Coburg's head, and the lieutenant dives into a handy shell hole. Catching on, the German machine gunners let loose a burst well above the opposite trenches. From Silent Night: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00311JUGK https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00311JUGK
oconnor663 6y ago
The article also reminded me of a story from the aftermath of the My Lai massacre: > In 1998, Thompson and Colburn returned to the village of Sơn Mỹ, where they met some of the people they saved during the killings, including Thi Nhung and Pham Thi Nhanh, two women who had been part of the group about to be killed by Brooks's 2nd Platoon. Thompson said to the survivors, "I just wish our crew that day could have helped more people than we did." He reported that one of the women they had helped out came up to him and asked, "Why didn't the people who committed these acts come back with you?" He said that he was "just devastated" but that she finished her sentence: "So we could forgive them." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson_Jr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson_Jr.

welder 6y ago

> one woman said to me, “When you were shot down, I celebrated. I cheered with my friends. But we were upset that you were not killed. We thought you deserved to die.” You can imagine the hush in the audience. And then she said, “But now that we have gotten to know you, I’m so glad that you are here.” I was weeping. > There’s so much misunderstanding in the world resulting in unnecessary sorrow. Having the Danis—a positive, joyful family—in my life has altered my perspective. It may sound trite, but if only there were a way for all the religious, cultural, and ethnic groups of the world to meet and get to know one another in a meaningful way—the way Zoltan and I have—how could we ever go to war again?

nexthash 6y ago

Here's the documentary film that was created about this encounter: https://optimisticfilm.com/videos/docs/the-second-meeting/ https://optimisticfilm.com/videos/docs/the-second-meeting/

jacquesm 6y ago

You'll never hear a story like this about a drone pilot.

zoomablemind 6y ago
Speaking of drones and F-117... Somewhat old story, but the "retired" F-117 were not only mothballed, but have been also spotted still flying "regularly". The speculation was that it may have possibly been used in the UCAV context. https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/why-is-the-retired-f-117-nighthawk-still-flying-1544383008 https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/why-is-the-retired-f-117-n...