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Interesting tweet about how much blame EU deserves for this. https://twitter.com/AnnaJerzewska/status/1358036501729337347?s=19 https://twitter.com/AnnaJerzewska

Interesting tweet about how much blame EU deserves for this. https://twitter.com/AnnaJerzewska/status/1358036501729337347?s=19 https://twitter.com/AnnaJerzewska/status/1358036501729337347...

pjmlp 6y ago
Yep, what a surprise! /s
capableweb 6y ago
Not sure if you linked the right tweet or I'm missing something. This is what I see: > There is a notion that the EU is punishing us. That our exports have to jump through more hoops than e.g. Norwegian products. > This is what we agreed to. What we wanted. We didn't opt for the Norway model (e.g. alignment). > This is not punishment, this was our choice. That to me seems to say that this is self-inflicted, not something that the EU as a group inflicted on the UK. Not to dismiss the idea that UK is leaving the EU, not that the EU is kicking out UK. So I guess when it comes to "how much blame the EU deserves for this", it seems the answer is "none".
- dariusj18 6y ago
  Also, the EU has no motivation to make Brexit look like a success.
- gspr 6y ago
  > So I guess when it comes to "how much blame the EU deserves for this", it seems the answer is "none". I think that was the point the parent post was trying to make.
  - flembat 6y ago
    The UKs friends in Europe have decided to treat the UK more like an adversary than a typical third party. So certainly the EU is also to blame.
    - Hamuko 6y ago
      Which typical parties are you referring to now?
    - kergonath 6y ago
      The EU's friends in the UK have decided to be treated more like a third country than a typical partner. Surely they are responsible for their actions?
- cmmeur01 6y ago
  We want to be treated as club member and reap all the perks, but we don't want to be in the club though.
  - lou1306 6y ago
    And the irony is, you actually were reaping a lot of the perks while not being "in the club" under many, many respects (the €, first of all). Just a sad, sad turn of events all around.
    - that_guy_iain 6y ago
      The UK had literally the best deal in Europe. They had a rebate, they weren't a member of the schengen area, they refused the Euro, etc. They then went and got more concessions and then decided to leave. And now the hardcore Brexit people think all the negative effects they were warned about for 5+ years is the EU punishing them.
      - imtringued 6y ago
        From a pragmatic standpoint the Euro is a complete failure. I don't blame any country that decided against adopting it. However, the rest is relatively solid. There are warts and inefficiencies like in every governing body but it's does its job as an economic union.
        jokethrowaway 6y ago
        I disagree, every added governing body is a failure in itself. I would prefer to just see a Europe-light with countries maintaining their currency and laws and just dropping trade restrictions, import taxes and need for touristic visas. I'd even extend it to any country in the world, let the customer decide if the want to buy from China or from the UK
        lou1306 6y ago
        But "dropping trade restrictions, import taxes and need for touristic visas" automatically leads to production shifting towards the countries with the loosest regulation and the lowest wages. So, you need at least a supranational regulation body that tries to make regulations uniform across the zone. But then, you need a supranational body of elected officials to jointly control that regulation body, by passing legislation. But then, you need an executive body that sets the agenda of the legislative body. And some judiciary mechanisms to handle transgressions to the laws and regulations coming from all these organs. And then... you basically end up with something pretty similar to the EU as we know it. (I'm not saying the EU is perfect, mind you. Just that they didn't create such a complex collection of institutions just "for the lulz")
- kergonath 6y ago
  Everything was predicted a long time ago. All the friction at the border is the inevitable consequence of the choices the successive British governments made. I like to show this as a demonstration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agZ0xISi40E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agZ0xISi40E .
thinkingemote 6y ago
There is also a theory that the delays and controversy of Brexit have been caused by the remainers who want to reverse the referendum, in other words some people out there blame the trouble caused on those who didn't want there to be trouble in the first place.
- kergonath 6y ago
  At which point in the process were they in any position to do anything, though?
yread 6y ago
Of course it's largely UK's own making. But EU surely didn't make it any easier. The VAT rules alone make it really difficult for small business to export to EU. Each country has its own rules, thresholds and agencies. Compared to how easy is it for us in the EU to do business within EU it's crazy. That's why UK's own government recommends opening a subsidiary in the EU.
- lottin 6y ago
  Exporters don't pay VAT, importers do.
  - yread 6y ago
    I admit I only looked into very quickly but it seems that UK business might need fiscal representatives in each EU country they do business with https://www.avalara.com/vatlive/en/vat-services/fiscal-representative-for-eu-vat.html https://www.avalara.com/vatlive/en/vat-services/fiscal-repre...
- krona 6y ago
  I was under the impression that most of the rule changes apply to the vast majority of cross-border B2C sellers in the EU from July: https://www.pwc.ch/en/insights/tax/new-ecommerce-eu-vat-rules-july-2021.html https://www.pwc.ch/en/insights/tax/new-ecommerce-eu-vat-rule...
- corty 6y ago
  The EU cannot make it any easier. Not because it wouldn't be possible at all, just that it would be suicidal for the EU or its politicians for several reasons. There are tendencies in several members to leave the EU or at least get rid of a few of the treaties. That means that leaving the EU in any really beneficial way for the UK would be strengthening the "leave" position in other members. And while the UK alone leaving is bad, more members leaving would be far worse. Then there is the topic of the UK rebate and the UK's special role in several treaties. The EU has always had to pamper the UK and the UK gave nothing but grief in return. It would have been political suicide for the EU leadership to give any impression of continuing to pamper the Brits in the Brexit treaties. Also, beneficial status for a non-member would weaken the EU position in treaties with other non-members such as Norway, Switzerland, Japan, Canada, etc. And then there is the problem of the UK being not really one country but a haphazard agglomeration of several territories. While Great Britain is somewhat uniform, Northern Ireland is special. There are several reasons for treating it in a special way in the Brexit treaty, like a looming civil war, a possible Irish veto, a possible smuggling route into the EU market. But it was clear from the start that this would hugely complicate matters. Same for Gibraltar and the channel Islands, French and Spanish vetoes looming, etc. I won't be surprised if the Brexit treaties don't hold forever. If the UK feels the squeeze of non-forthcoming trade with the rest of the world and diminishing trade with the EU, a more aligned status like the Norway/Switzerland model is possible. And I guess there will be a realignment of Northern Ireland and Gibraltar in some way, either towards a more unified UK or towards a weakened UK and Spanish/Irish unity, depending on what kind of hit the respective nations will take during COVID and the next few years. But from an internal EU point of view, the current Brexit treaty is the farthest the EU could have gone.
baq 6y ago
Of course. Nobody says it aloud but there were multiple members with anti-EU, pro-exit governments before brexit. Not anymore precisely because UK didn’t get any favors to put it mildly.

Interesting tweet about how much blame EU deserves for this. https://twitter.com/AnnaJerzewska/status/1358036501729337347?s=19 https://twitter.com/AnnaJerzewska/status/1358036501729337347...

pjmlp 6y ago

Yep, what a surprise! /s

capableweb 6y ago

Not sure if you linked the right tweet or I'm missing something. This is what I see: > There is a notion that the EU is punishing us. That our exports have to jump through more hoops than e.g. Norwegian products. > This is what we agreed to. What we wanted. We didn't opt for the Norway model (e.g. alignment). > This is not punishment, this was our choice. That to me seems to say that this is self-inflicted, not something that the EU as a group inflicted on the UK. Not to dismiss the idea that UK is leaving the EU, not that the EU is kicking out UK. So I guess when it comes to "how much blame the EU deserves for this", it seems the answer is "none".

dariusj18 6y ago
Also, the EU has no motivation to make Brexit look like a success.
gspr 6y ago
> So I guess when it comes to "how much blame the EU deserves for this", it seems the answer is "none". I think that was the point the parent post was trying to make.
- flembat 6y ago
  The UKs friends in Europe have decided to treat the UK more like an adversary than a typical third party. So certainly the EU is also to blame.
  - Hamuko 6y ago
    Which typical parties are you referring to now?
  - kergonath 6y ago
    The EU's friends in the UK have decided to be treated more like a third country than a typical partner. Surely they are responsible for their actions?
cmmeur01 6y ago
We want to be treated as club member and reap all the perks, but we don't want to be in the club though.
- lou1306 6y ago
  And the irony is, you actually were reaping a lot of the perks while not being "in the club" under many, many respects (the €, first of all). Just a sad, sad turn of events all around.
  - that_guy_iain 6y ago
    The UK had literally the best deal in Europe. They had a rebate, they weren't a member of the schengen area, they refused the Euro, etc. They then went and got more concessions and then decided to leave. And now the hardcore Brexit people think all the negative effects they were warned about for 5+ years is the EU punishing them.
    - imtringued 6y ago
      From a pragmatic standpoint the Euro is a complete failure. I don't blame any country that decided against adopting it. However, the rest is relatively solid. There are warts and inefficiencies like in every governing body but it's does its job as an economic union.
      - jokethrowaway 6y ago
        I disagree, every added governing body is a failure in itself. I would prefer to just see a Europe-light with countries maintaining their currency and laws and just dropping trade restrictions, import taxes and need for touristic visas. I'd even extend it to any country in the world, let the customer decide if the want to buy from China or from the UK
        lou1306 6y ago
        But "dropping trade restrictions, import taxes and need for touristic visas" automatically leads to production shifting towards the countries with the loosest regulation and the lowest wages. So, you need at least a supranational regulation body that tries to make regulations uniform across the zone. But then, you need a supranational body of elected officials to jointly control that regulation body, by passing legislation. But then, you need an executive body that sets the agenda of the legislative body. And some judiciary mechanisms to handle transgressions to the laws and regulations coming from all these organs. And then... you basically end up with something pretty similar to the EU as we know it. (I'm not saying the EU is perfect, mind you. Just that they didn't create such a complex collection of institutions just "for the lulz")
kergonath 6y ago
Everything was predicted a long time ago. All the friction at the border is the inevitable consequence of the choices the successive British governments made. I like to show this as a demonstration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agZ0xISi40E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agZ0xISi40E .

thinkingemote 6y ago

There is also a theory that the delays and controversy of Brexit have been caused by the remainers who want to reverse the referendum, in other words some people out there blame the trouble caused on those who didn't want there to be trouble in the first place.

kergonath 6y ago
At which point in the process were they in any position to do anything, though?

yread 6y ago

Of course it's largely UK's own making. But EU surely didn't make it any easier. The VAT rules alone make it really difficult for small business to export to EU. Each country has its own rules, thresholds and agencies. Compared to how easy is it for us in the EU to do business within EU it's crazy. That's why UK's own government recommends opening a subsidiary in the EU.

lottin 6y ago
Exporters don't pay VAT, importers do.
- yread 6y ago
  I admit I only looked into very quickly but it seems that UK business might need fiscal representatives in each EU country they do business with https://www.avalara.com/vatlive/en/vat-services/fiscal-representative-for-eu-vat.html https://www.avalara.com/vatlive/en/vat-services/fiscal-repre...
krona 6y ago
I was under the impression that most of the rule changes apply to the vast majority of cross-border B2C sellers in the EU from July: https://www.pwc.ch/en/insights/tax/new-ecommerce-eu-vat-rules-july-2021.html https://www.pwc.ch/en/insights/tax/new-ecommerce-eu-vat-rule...
corty 6y ago
The EU cannot make it any easier. Not because it wouldn't be possible at all, just that it would be suicidal for the EU or its politicians for several reasons. There are tendencies in several members to leave the EU or at least get rid of a few of the treaties. That means that leaving the EU in any really beneficial way for the UK would be strengthening the "leave" position in other members. And while the UK alone leaving is bad, more members leaving would be far worse. Then there is the topic of the UK rebate and the UK's special role in several treaties. The EU has always had to pamper the UK and the UK gave nothing but grief in return. It would have been political suicide for the EU leadership to give any impression of continuing to pamper the Brits in the Brexit treaties. Also, beneficial status for a non-member would weaken the EU position in treaties with other non-members such as Norway, Switzerland, Japan, Canada, etc. And then there is the problem of the UK being not really one country but a haphazard agglomeration of several territories. While Great Britain is somewhat uniform, Northern Ireland is special. There are several reasons for treating it in a special way in the Brexit treaty, like a looming civil war, a possible Irish veto, a possible smuggling route into the EU market. But it was clear from the start that this would hugely complicate matters. Same for Gibraltar and the channel Islands, French and Spanish vetoes looming, etc. I won't be surprised if the Brexit treaties don't hold forever. If the UK feels the squeeze of non-forthcoming trade with the rest of the world and diminishing trade with the EU, a more aligned status like the Norway/Switzerland model is possible. And I guess there will be a realignment of Northern Ireland and Gibraltar in some way, either towards a more unified UK or towards a weakened UK and Spanish/Irish unity, depending on what kind of hit the respective nations will take during COVID and the next few years. But from an internal EU point of view, the current Brexit treaty is the farthest the EU could have gone.

baq 6y ago

Of course. Nobody says it aloud but there were multiple members with anti-EU, pro-exit governments before brexit. Not anymore precisely because UK didn’t get any favors to put it mildly.