6 ms·

Henry Ford cardiologists find iPhone 12 deactivates implantable cardiac devices

27 points by lazycrazyowl 6y ago

cube00 6y ago
> In order to find out if their suspicions were true, Dr. Singh and his colleagues took an iPhone 12 Pro and passed it over the chest of a patient with an implantable defibrillator. Surely that couldn't have been the first step in the investigation?!
- ganstyles 6y ago
  Haha, I was thinking this as well. But to their credit, they're doctors so presumably knew the patient wouldn't have an issue if the defib deactivated in that moment, and they were there in case anything bad happened. An implantable defib, for anyone who doesn't know, is more like a safety device in that it monitors and responds to events versus something like a pacemaker which needs to be on an responding at all times.
  - paulie_a 6y ago
    That is an important distinction. An ICD should rarely trigger. And when it does, oh boy you know it
- sander202 6y ago
  wouldn't suprise me, when tuning my ICD they ran all kinds of programs just to see what happens, totally freaked me out, my hartbeat went from 60 to 140 in 1 step, then they lowered it to 70 in steps of 10, now it is fixed at 50. except when I have a heart rhythm disturbance, then a program runs to try to outpace the disturbance by increading my heartrate by 10% in six steps. It is beyond weird
- paulie_a 6y ago
  It's honestly a fairly logical step. Turning off an ICD for a very short time and getting the data then would be a very quick process
amelius 6y ago
How does low-power electronics get deactivated by a magnet of modest strength?
- terramex 6y ago
  > These cardiac devices have switches which respond to an external magnet to change how the device functions. For a defibrillator, a magnet can be used to turn the device off. > “Obviously, we can’t perform surgery every time we need to control one of these devices, which is why they are engineered to allow us to use strong magnets over the chest to control their function,” said Dr. Singh.
- lmilcin 6y ago
  It has reed switch which is specially designed sensor that closes in presence of even small magnetic field. This is intentional feature.
  - amelius 6y ago
    Is this still how these devices are made?
    - detaro 6y ago
      yes.
      - amelius 6y ago
        I find this strange, as there are low-power transceivers, low-power microprocessors, etc. and you could power the device inductively during communication. And perhaps a simple solution would be to implement a door-knocking scheme, where you first apply a well-defined series of magnetic pulses before the device starts listening.
        detaro 6y ago
        If the device malfunctions, you don't want people to be unable to do something about it because they don't have the right version of a disabling device, or trying to figure out what the knocking scheme for the specific patients device is (so changing it to a different system is also an issue, since there is then multiple things to try).
lmilcin 6y ago
Move along, nothing to see here. This is intentional design feature of implantable devices. Most implantable devices have special feature that they can be deactivated with a magnet. This allows them to be easily deactivated without any special equipment, in case they malfunction or when in care of medical staff that don't want the device to interfere. Any person wearing one will know not to put any electronic device close to the implant, anyway. This has been discussed on HN multiple times. There are many household devices producing stronger magnetic fields, for some reason "Henry Ford cardiologists" did not find them objectionable.
- sander202 6y ago
  except you forget you have an ICD and just put your phone in your jacket, or you do not know there is a strong magnet nearby ( like induction cooking plate ). It somewhat scares me.
- sdflhasjd 6y ago
  > This is intentional design feature Not an intentional feature of the iPhone however. > Most implantable devices have special feature that they can be deactivated with a magnet Which the article states as such "they are engineered to allow us to use strong magnets over the chest to control their function" > There are many household devices producing stronger magnetic fields Probably because these devices are already known to the patients an doctors, but until recently, phones havne't had magnets big and strong enough for this effect.
- paulie_a 6y ago
  This is highly concerning who has an implanted device. I know how they disable it temporarily. I was accidentally shocked 26 times in a row and had mine disabled Considering it's winter and most winter coats have a cell phone pocket right about where those devices are implanted that is not a great combination Ive already been warned regarding magnets. Everything I've read though I'm this case is specific to the iphone 12. I'll be calling my engineer to see if it is a concern of if it is just an issue with iphones On a side note. Most manufacturers don't make a coat with the upper chest pocket on the right side
fxj 6y ago
Works as designed. When a pacemaker detects a strong magnetic field it switched itself off. Pacemaker carriers have to beware of magnetic name bagdes, magnetic toys and of course mobile devices with strong magnets. Here they tested two small spherical magnets (diameters, 8 and 12 mm), a necklace with magnets, and a magnetic name tag; no single magnet weighed more than 8.3 grams. https://www.jwatch.org/jc200701240000001/2007/01/24/beware-what-you-wear-with-your-pacemaker-or-icd https://www.jwatch.org/jc200701240000001/2007/01/24/beware-w...
lifeisstillgood 6y ago
Ok, so this is a design decision problem. We can now go one of two ways 1. Leave it as it is. Tell patients * really loudly* it to put magnets near their chests. 2. Redesign the reed switch to use some RFID style interface so that only someone with correct password can adjust the device. My take is 1. 2. Opens up a whole world of failure possibilities that are not easy to know or predict - and every day a zero-day is possible. But 1. remains simple to understand and limited in the ways it can go wrong.
clcaev7 6y ago
Original Source: https://www.henryford.com/news/2021/02/iphone-12-deactivates-defibrillator https://www.henryford.com/news/2021/02/iphone-12-deactivates...
detaro 6y ago
previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25677717 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25677717
aftbit 6y ago
Why is this flagged?

27 points by lazycrazyowl 6y ago

> In order to find out if their suspicions were true, Dr. Singh and his colleagues took an iPhone 12 Pro and passed it over the chest of a patient with an implantable defibrillator. Surely that couldn't have been the first step in the investigation?!

ganstyles 6y ago
Haha, I was thinking this as well. But to their credit, they're doctors so presumably knew the patient wouldn't have an issue if the defib deactivated in that moment, and they were there in case anything bad happened. An implantable defib, for anyone who doesn't know, is more like a safety device in that it monitors and responds to events versus something like a pacemaker which needs to be on an responding at all times.
- paulie_a 6y ago
  That is an important distinction. An ICD should rarely trigger. And when it does, oh boy you know it
sander202 6y ago
wouldn't suprise me, when tuning my ICD they ran all kinds of programs just to see what happens, totally freaked me out, my hartbeat went from 60 to 140 in 1 step, then they lowered it to 70 in steps of 10, now it is fixed at 50. except when I have a heart rhythm disturbance, then a program runs to try to outpace the disturbance by increading my heartrate by 10% in six steps. It is beyond weird
paulie_a 6y ago
It's honestly a fairly logical step. Turning off an ICD for a very short time and getting the data then would be a very quick process

amelius 6y ago

How does low-power electronics get deactivated by a magnet of modest strength?

terramex 6y ago
> These cardiac devices have switches which respond to an external magnet to change how the device functions. For a defibrillator, a magnet can be used to turn the device off. > “Obviously, we can’t perform surgery every time we need to control one of these devices, which is why they are engineered to allow us to use strong magnets over the chest to control their function,” said Dr. Singh.
lmilcin 6y ago
It has reed switch which is specially designed sensor that closes in presence of even small magnetic field. This is intentional feature.
- amelius 6y ago
  Is this still how these devices are made?
  - detaro 6y ago
    yes.
    - amelius 6y ago
      I find this strange, as there are low-power transceivers, low-power microprocessors, etc. and you could power the device inductively during communication. And perhaps a simple solution would be to implement a door-knocking scheme, where you first apply a well-defined series of magnetic pulses before the device starts listening.
      - detaro 6y ago
        If the device malfunctions, you don't want people to be unable to do something about it because they don't have the right version of a disabling device, or trying to figure out what the knocking scheme for the specific patients device is (so changing it to a different system is also an issue, since there is then multiple things to try).

lmilcin 6y ago

Move along, nothing to see here. This is intentional design feature of implantable devices. Most implantable devices have special feature that they can be deactivated with a magnet. This allows them to be easily deactivated without any special equipment, in case they malfunction or when in care of medical staff that don't want the device to interfere. Any person wearing one will know not to put any electronic device close to the implant, anyway. This has been discussed on HN multiple times. There are many household devices producing stronger magnetic fields, for some reason "Henry Ford cardiologists" did not find them objectionable.

sander202 6y ago
except you forget you have an ICD and just put your phone in your jacket, or you do not know there is a strong magnet nearby ( like induction cooking plate ). It somewhat scares me.
sdflhasjd 6y ago
> This is intentional design feature Not an intentional feature of the iPhone however. > Most implantable devices have special feature that they can be deactivated with a magnet Which the article states as such "they are engineered to allow us to use strong magnets over the chest to control their function" > There are many household devices producing stronger magnetic fields Probably because these devices are already known to the patients an doctors, but until recently, phones havne't had magnets big and strong enough for this effect.
paulie_a 6y ago
This is highly concerning who has an implanted device. I know how they disable it temporarily. I was accidentally shocked 26 times in a row and had mine disabled Considering it's winter and most winter coats have a cell phone pocket right about where those devices are implanted that is not a great combination Ive already been warned regarding magnets. Everything I've read though I'm this case is specific to the iphone 12. I'll be calling my engineer to see if it is a concern of if it is just an issue with iphones On a side note. Most manufacturers don't make a coat with the upper chest pocket on the right side

fxj 6y ago

Works as designed. When a pacemaker detects a strong magnetic field it switched itself off. Pacemaker carriers have to beware of magnetic name bagdes, magnetic toys and of course mobile devices with strong magnets. Here they tested two small spherical magnets (diameters, 8 and 12 mm), a necklace with magnets, and a magnetic name tag; no single magnet weighed more than 8.3 grams. https://www.jwatch.org/jc200701240000001/2007/01/24/beware-what-you-wear-with-your-pacemaker-or-icd https://www.jwatch.org/jc200701240000001/2007/01/24/beware-w...

lifeisstillgood 6y ago

Ok, so this is a design decision problem. We can now go one of two ways 1. Leave it as it is. Tell patients * really loudly* it to put magnets near their chests. 2. Redesign the reed switch to use some RFID style interface so that only someone with correct password can adjust the device. My take is 1. 2. Opens up a whole world of failure possibilities that are not easy to know or predict - and every day a zero-day is possible. But 1. remains simple to understand and limited in the ways it can go wrong.

clcaev7 6y ago

Original Source: https://www.henryford.com/news/2021/02/iphone-12-deactivates-defibrillator https://www.henryford.com/news/2021/02/iphone-12-deactivates...

detaro 6y ago

previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25677717 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25677717

aftbit 6y ago

Why is this flagged?