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It seems like I’ve seen this movie before. A large automotive consortium puts out an optimistic press release announcing its full commitment to EVs https://www.

It seems like I’ve seen this movie before. A large automotive consortium puts out an optimistic press release announcing its full commitment to EVs https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1086902_volkswagen-will-be-the-biggest-electric-car-maker-in-2018-it-says https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1086902_volkswagen-will... Then it turns out that the primary cost contributor to an EV is the cost of batteries. Automakers being relative nobodies on the lithium market, they are paying retail for it and passing the mark-ups to you, the consumer. At that point compromises must be made, and the announced vehicles advertise either an unimpressive range or some atrocious price sticker or both. The market compares the $/mile-of-total-tange, at which point Tesla emerges as being fairly competitive on price. The large company discontinues the vehicle lineup, citing overrun cost issues and market disinterest for EVs save for a few Tesla fanboy diehards.

cookiengineer 6y ago
This so much sounds like all the PR stunt cars that renault put out. You literally have to lease a battery on top of the absurd prices, and you cannot get it changed for free, even when you lease it. Which makes all their cars basically useless after a year of usage, because the batteries are embedded in their chassis. Every time I compare European manufacturers to Tesla and Nissan, they are such a bad joke. Nissan has so much experience with its Leaf models, and they are dirt cheap, repairable and they work. High-end spectrum buyers will buy an all-inclusive Tesla anyways, and they won't care as much about cheap repairability. Teslas are sadly not made for repairs, so they aren't the right car for me :(
- nickik 6y ago
  What are you even talking about. Nissan sales have collapsed, the Leaf went from one of the most sold cars to small program and is being discontinued in many places. Nissan has the Ariya coming out but not much beyond, their announced targets for electrification are embracingly bad compared to basically every other auto-maker. VWG and Renault are outselling Nissan by 2-3x in terms of BEV. And you don't have to lease the battery. The Renault Zoe is the second most sold EV in Europe. And I'm not sure what you mean by Tesla are not made to be repaired', that not the case. Tesla doesn't deliver parts as fast as other manufacturers but there is nothing inherent that makes it hard to repair.
  - justapassenger 6y ago
    Tesla’s are famous for not being repairable by 3rd party shops. You lack documentation, software, getting parts is PITA, and Tesla will happily disable features in your car, if you repaired it in a way they don’t agree with (like disabling supercharging on salvaged cars).
    - nickik 6y ago
      That is about business model, not about the car. Saying the car is not made for repairs is inaccurate. And for a lot of repairs the Tesla model is actually great, the mobile service will go to where your car is and fix most things. The problem of time is usually when have a crash and need body repair.
    - natch 6y ago
      Tesla is just going through the growing pains of ramping production so their repair story is still a work in progress at the moment. They make it work as needed, but it’s not always ideal nor as widely available everywhere as people hope yet. It will get better. Disabling supercharging for DIY battery fix/hack jobs I assume is done to protect the network so that other cars are not impacted by a potentially incorrect or incomplete repair job. I believe it’s usually a heathy practice in life to look for the straightforward explanations that don’t assume bad motives in the part of the actor you are looking at. Disabling supercharging is not great in this respect but they have to weigh it against the downside of how it could possibly affect other drivers.
      - Teever 6y ago
        > I believe it’s usually a heathy practice in life to look for the straightforward explanations that don’t assume bad motives in the part of the actor you are looking at. Do you believe that or were you just attempting to sound virtuous while making a snarky comment? There are legitimate reasons to be concerned about the motives of Tesla and the actions that they take. The actions of a megacorp don't even have to be outright malicious to be threatening to an individual -- it's not that they hate you, it's just that they don't care about you.
- justapassenger 6y ago
  While praising Nissan, you know that they’re basically owned by Renault? And didn’t Renault start selling cars with batteries, without forcing you to lease them, years ago? Or are there still some markets where they don’t do it?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - petre 6y ago
    They pretty much gave up because of consumer choice and environmental bonuses lowering the price gap between diesel and EV. As if someone looking to buy an EV would get a diesel instead? They still offer it for Twizy though. A coworker bought a Twizy at battery rental price with env bonus. What's the point of offering a lease if getting the env bonus requires ownership of the battery? At first I thought the rental thing was a intended to extract more revenue from the customer when in fact it was an incentive to lower the upfront price and get more adoption. https://www.electrive.com/2020/11/14/renault-drops-battery-rental-for-zoe-kangoo-z-e-in-germany/ https://www.electrive.com/2020/11/14/renault-drops-battery-r...
  - bobthepanda 6y ago
    What is the status of Nissan-Renault after the whole Carlos Ghosn debacle?
- clouddrover 6y ago
  > Every time I compare European manufacturers to Tesla and Nissan, they are such a bad joke The Renault Zoe was the best selling BEV in Europe in 2020 and Volkswagen Group was the best selling BEV maker in Europe overall: https://ev-sales.blogspot.com/2021/01/europe-december-2020.html https://ev-sales.blogspot.com/2021/01/europe-december-2020.h...
  - tibbydudeza 6y ago
    Renault also needs to expand their EV model range to the compact SUV market like the Koleos and lower cost Duster , it is undergoing testing.
- Hypocritelefty 6y ago
  Renault sold more EV cars than any other manufacturer in Europe.
  - clouddrover 6y ago
    No, Volkswagen was the biggest EV manufacturer in Europe in 2020. Volkswagen owns 12 brands: https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/brands-and-models.html https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/brands-and-models.html Volkswagen also sold more BEVs than Renault-Nissan globally: https://ev-sales.blogspot.com/2021/02/2020-sales-by-oem.html https://ev-sales.blogspot.com/2021/02/2020-sales-by-oem.html
    - Hypocritelefty 6y ago
      Thanks for sharing. I might have read it wrong but the point is tesla shills in here wont like what you are sharing as well. This place is full of them lol
    - imtringued 6y ago
      According to the comment section of the second link. VW will dominate the European market. China already has their own low end EV market. That leaves Tesla to dominate in North American and in the high end EV sector of China. The foolish idea that Tesla will consume all ICE manufacturers is just wishful thinking.
      - Hypocritelefty 6y ago
        It just goes to prove that sticking a battery under car is no big deal yet for tesla shills in here it is a game changer lol
ogre_codes 6y ago
> The large company discontinues the vehicle lineup, citing overrun cost issues and market disinterest for EVs save for a few Tesla fanboy diehards. We're at the bottom of the hockey stick here. There is no "discontinued lineup", in 10 years if you don't have a viable EV platform, you are closing your doors. It might be sooner than that. By the time Ford even starts to see return on their $29B it's likely to be a whole new game. I wouldn't be surprised if they were acquired for the brand name or to assemble someone else's technology. Apple seems to be interested in outsourcing assembly, maybe Ford can get in on that.
- radium3d 6y ago
  Lucky for ford they heavily invested in Rivian early on and are likely learning a lot from their cooperation together
- rad_gruchalski 6y ago
  > in 10 years if you don't have a viable EV platform, you are closing your doors I for once hope that the bragging from EU about the H2 infrastructure is not usual hot air. It is really good to see major manufacturers coming up with H2 power plant ideas. In 10 years, I’m looking to drive a fuel cell powered car. It’s not going to be a popular opinion here but IMO, battery powered cars are a dead end. The range will always be limited by physics. Batteries are manufactured from resources dug out of the ground. It’s really dumb to carry a ton of empty batteries when running low on load, it only contributes to wearing tires faster. 10 ton hauling tractors? Who’s going to build the road infrastructure to support that. The grid has its capacity too. Today? Sure - as an alternative to ICE, an EV makes some people feel better. 10 years from now? I’m not sure.
  - kungito 6y ago
    Only recently (I guess 10 years) have we started seeing serious billions poured into this research. The battery tech is improving so fast we might see some serious breakthroughs in the next 10 years regarding materials used and energy density. It's really too soon to say something isn't possible in this landscape
totalZero 6y ago
> Automakers being relative nobodies on the lithium market, they are paying retail for it and passing the mark-ups to you, the consumer. Automakers are already huge players in the metals markets and it seems unlikely that they would pay retail for any component, raw or finished.
tomcam 6y ago
You forgot the giant tax credit that costs citizens a lot of money yet ends up not helping the cause

cookiengineer 6y ago

This so much sounds like all the PR stunt cars that renault put out. You literally have to lease a battery on top of the absurd prices, and you cannot get it changed for free, even when you lease it. Which makes all their cars basically useless after a year of usage, because the batteries are embedded in their chassis. Every time I compare European manufacturers to Tesla and Nissan, they are such a bad joke. Nissan has so much experience with its Leaf models, and they are dirt cheap, repairable and they work. High-end spectrum buyers will buy an all-inclusive Tesla anyways, and they won't care as much about cheap repairability. Teslas are sadly not made for repairs, so they aren't the right car for me :(

nickik 6y ago
What are you even talking about. Nissan sales have collapsed, the Leaf went from one of the most sold cars to small program and is being discontinued in many places. Nissan has the Ariya coming out but not much beyond, their announced targets for electrification are embracingly bad compared to basically every other auto-maker. VWG and Renault are outselling Nissan by 2-3x in terms of BEV. And you don't have to lease the battery. The Renault Zoe is the second most sold EV in Europe. And I'm not sure what you mean by Tesla are not made to be repaired', that not the case. Tesla doesn't deliver parts as fast as other manufacturers but there is nothing inherent that makes it hard to repair.
- justapassenger 6y ago
  Tesla’s are famous for not being repairable by 3rd party shops. You lack documentation, software, getting parts is PITA, and Tesla will happily disable features in your car, if you repaired it in a way they don’t agree with (like disabling supercharging on salvaged cars).
  - nickik 6y ago
    That is about business model, not about the car. Saying the car is not made for repairs is inaccurate. And for a lot of repairs the Tesla model is actually great, the mobile service will go to where your car is and fix most things. The problem of time is usually when have a crash and need body repair.
  - natch 6y ago
    Tesla is just going through the growing pains of ramping production so their repair story is still a work in progress at the moment. They make it work as needed, but it’s not always ideal nor as widely available everywhere as people hope yet. It will get better. Disabling supercharging for DIY battery fix/hack jobs I assume is done to protect the network so that other cars are not impacted by a potentially incorrect or incomplete repair job. I believe it’s usually a heathy practice in life to look for the straightforward explanations that don’t assume bad motives in the part of the actor you are looking at. Disabling supercharging is not great in this respect but they have to weigh it against the downside of how it could possibly affect other drivers.
    - Teever 6y ago
      > I believe it’s usually a heathy practice in life to look for the straightforward explanations that don’t assume bad motives in the part of the actor you are looking at. Do you believe that or were you just attempting to sound virtuous while making a snarky comment? There are legitimate reasons to be concerned about the motives of Tesla and the actions that they take. The actions of a megacorp don't even have to be outright malicious to be threatening to an individual -- it's not that they hate you, it's just that they don't care about you.
justapassenger 6y ago
While praising Nissan, you know that they’re basically owned by Renault? And didn’t Renault start selling cars with batteries, without forcing you to lease them, years ago? Or are there still some markets where they don’t do it?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- petre 6y ago
  They pretty much gave up because of consumer choice and environmental bonuses lowering the price gap between diesel and EV. As if someone looking to buy an EV would get a diesel instead? They still offer it for Twizy though. A coworker bought a Twizy at battery rental price with env bonus. What's the point of offering a lease if getting the env bonus requires ownership of the battery? At first I thought the rental thing was a intended to extract more revenue from the customer when in fact it was an incentive to lower the upfront price and get more adoption. https://www.electrive.com/2020/11/14/renault-drops-battery-rental-for-zoe-kangoo-z-e-in-germany/ https://www.electrive.com/2020/11/14/renault-drops-battery-r...
- bobthepanda 6y ago
  What is the status of Nissan-Renault after the whole Carlos Ghosn debacle?
clouddrover 6y ago
> Every time I compare European manufacturers to Tesla and Nissan, they are such a bad joke The Renault Zoe was the best selling BEV in Europe in 2020 and Volkswagen Group was the best selling BEV maker in Europe overall: https://ev-sales.blogspot.com/2021/01/europe-december-2020.html https://ev-sales.blogspot.com/2021/01/europe-december-2020.h...
- tibbydudeza 6y ago
  Renault also needs to expand their EV model range to the compact SUV market like the Koleos and lower cost Duster , it is undergoing testing.
Hypocritelefty 6y ago
Renault sold more EV cars than any other manufacturer in Europe.
- clouddrover 6y ago
  No, Volkswagen was the biggest EV manufacturer in Europe in 2020. Volkswagen owns 12 brands: https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/brands-and-models.html https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/brands-and-models.html Volkswagen also sold more BEVs than Renault-Nissan globally: https://ev-sales.blogspot.com/2021/02/2020-sales-by-oem.html https://ev-sales.blogspot.com/2021/02/2020-sales-by-oem.html
  - Hypocritelefty 6y ago
    Thanks for sharing. I might have read it wrong but the point is tesla shills in here wont like what you are sharing as well. This place is full of them lol
  - imtringued 6y ago
    According to the comment section of the second link. VW will dominate the European market. China already has their own low end EV market. That leaves Tesla to dominate in North American and in the high end EV sector of China. The foolish idea that Tesla will consume all ICE manufacturers is just wishful thinking.
    - Hypocritelefty 6y ago
      It just goes to prove that sticking a battery under car is no big deal yet for tesla shills in here it is a game changer lol

ogre_codes 6y ago

> The large company discontinues the vehicle lineup, citing overrun cost issues and market disinterest for EVs save for a few Tesla fanboy diehards. We're at the bottom of the hockey stick here. There is no "discontinued lineup", in 10 years if you don't have a viable EV platform, you are closing your doors. It might be sooner than that. By the time Ford even starts to see return on their $29B it's likely to be a whole new game. I wouldn't be surprised if they were acquired for the brand name or to assemble someone else's technology. Apple seems to be interested in outsourcing assembly, maybe Ford can get in on that.

radium3d 6y ago
Lucky for ford they heavily invested in Rivian early on and are likely learning a lot from their cooperation together
rad_gruchalski 6y ago
> in 10 years if you don't have a viable EV platform, you are closing your doors I for once hope that the bragging from EU about the H2 infrastructure is not usual hot air. It is really good to see major manufacturers coming up with H2 power plant ideas. In 10 years, I’m looking to drive a fuel cell powered car. It’s not going to be a popular opinion here but IMO, battery powered cars are a dead end. The range will always be limited by physics. Batteries are manufactured from resources dug out of the ground. It’s really dumb to carry a ton of empty batteries when running low on load, it only contributes to wearing tires faster. 10 ton hauling tractors? Who’s going to build the road infrastructure to support that. The grid has its capacity too. Today? Sure - as an alternative to ICE, an EV makes some people feel better. 10 years from now? I’m not sure.
- kungito 6y ago
  Only recently (I guess 10 years) have we started seeing serious billions poured into this research. The battery tech is improving so fast we might see some serious breakthroughs in the next 10 years regarding materials used and energy density. It's really too soon to say something isn't possible in this landscape

totalZero 6y ago

> Automakers being relative nobodies on the lithium market, they are paying retail for it and passing the mark-ups to you, the consumer. Automakers are already huge players in the metals markets and it seems unlikely that they would pay retail for any component, raw or finished.

tomcam 6y ago

You forgot the giant tax credit that costs citizens a lot of money yet ends up not helping the cause