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> I think it pushes away those who are on the cusp of moving towards plant-base foods. I think you are completely wrong. People eat meat because they like the

> I think it pushes away those who are on the cusp of moving towards plant-base foods. I think you are completely wrong. People eat meat because they like the taste and the texture, but at the same time everyone knows that meat is produced by killing animals, and that it's much less sustainable than vegetarian food. If you want to get people to switch to meat alternatives, you have to keep everything that's great about meat (taste, texture, proteins), while removing everything that's bad about meat (slaughter, livestock industry). And that is exactly what this new generation of plant-based alternatives are focusing on, and given their popularity compared to earlier attempts, I think they're on the right track. Quick question: Are you yourself a vegetarian or vegan?

tashoecraft 6y ago
Agreed. So many non vegetarian/vegan people say stuff like this and it’s just wrong. Or they’ll say “why have a fake burger, can’t you just enjoy vegetarian food, why does it have to be a burger? If you want burger just eat one and stop trying to copy meat, innovate on your own”. It’s just people completely missing the point. If you get fake meat close enough in taste/texture/price you’ll move a large amount of product. The high high majority of meat consumption is not high quality product, but the absolutely lowest quality possible. It’s so easy to swap out they meh hamburger patty you have at a bbq with a plant based one, be healthier, and have less impact on the environment.
- drukenemo 6y ago
  Plant-based food aimed at replacing meat is often a too-many ingredient, industrialised nightmare.
  - henrikschroder 6y ago
    ...unlike the animal industry which is just full of fluffy, happy, loved cows who proudly line themselves up to be turned into tasty beef for your pleasure... Have you seen the animal industry? It's absolutely disgusting. Getting rid of that would be an enormous net win, both ethical and environmental.
    - snakeboy 6y ago
      Ethics aside, I think the parent comment was referring to weird additives and oils in things like the Impossible Burger. That being said, I think it's only fair to compare that to all the antibiotics, hormones, and fertilizers that your average low-grade ground beef has been exposed to or fed.
      - henrikschroder 6y ago
        > I think the parent comment was referring to weird additives and oils Weird, how? Weird, because they have funny names that are hard to pronounce, and are therefore magically "unnatural" and bad for you? Or weird, because their effects on nutrition, digestion, and human health hasn't been widely studied yet?
        nkozyra 6y ago
        Both. This pursuit of tasting "kinda like meat" has incurred a lot of odd ingredients most people would normally eschew if they knew the extent of study in human consumption. Plain meat has a much better track record. I don't blame any meat eater for rolling their eyes at this stuff. And the decisions are sometimes odd. Like beet juice being added not for flavor but so it looks like the patty is bleeding. Meat eaters aren't sold because the veggie burger looks rare. The truth is meat eaters aren't, en massé, abandoning meat for a plant based alternative that provides little to no health benefit and costs just as much or more. Will we get there? Probably. But we're in a weird limbo area that is barely appealing to either side of the fence other than as a novelty.
        Badfood 6y ago
        Meat has a better track record huh? Basically all cardiovascular diseases are caused by animal products. Those 'odd ingredients' don't seem so odd to me. Go through the list of a meat alternative one by one, you'll be surprised how mundane they are
        6y ago
  - wyre 6y ago
    Is that kinda like how mass produced meat is literally an industrialized nightmare? Or are you just saying that having more than a handful of ingredients is bad?
  - opan 6y ago
    I agree. I've been eating vegan a while, and I've hated certain foods such as onions for my whole life. A ton of fake meat is pre-seasoned with onions and other stuff. Hard to find things I even want to try among it. Typically a beef hotdog would come unseasoned, so it's a bit unfortunate. There's still plenty good food to eat, but the fake meat is not the most exciting stuff to me.
  - nkozyra 6y ago
    Not to mention they still don't taste like meat. The Impossible Burger comes closest and i think it's fine for getting a meat eater to give it a shot but I'd rather eat a black bean burger with just a few ingredients at a fraction of the cost.
    - sokoloff 6y ago
      I tried the A&W fake meat burger (I think theirs is Beyond brand) and I have to say in the context of a burger with toppings, it was quite good. Probably 95% as enjoyable as an A&W beef burger.
  - sitharus 6y ago
    So is the animal industry in the USA, with ammonia-washed meat, wide-scale deployment of antibiotics (which has the knock-on effect of helping create antibiotic resistance), and the use of growth hormones in cattle to increase production. I'm not defending the plant-based industry here, but the way meat is produced in the USA is also a nightmare.
    - torgian 6y ago
      I basically avoid American meat for these reasons, and typically source my beef from Australia , Japan or other countries ( which is easier since I live in Taiwan ). But honestly I’m not 100% sure how much better aussy and Japanese meats are.
  - elif 6y ago
    I'm not sure that tracks. Impossible burger: Water, Soy Protein Concentrate, Coconut Oil, Sunflower Oil, Natural Flavors, 2% Or Less Of: Potato Protein, Methylcellulose, Yeast Extract, Cultured Dextrose, Food Starch Modified, Soy Leghemoglobin, Salt, Mixed Tocopherols (Antioxidant), Soy Protein Isolate, Vitamins and Minerals (Zinc Gluconate, Thiamine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B1), Niacin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Vitamin B12). These are common ingredients?
    - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
      For the vast majority of those ingredients, the answer sure looks like "yes." A few are literally standard home cooking ingredients, and nearly all the rest (dextrose, yeast extract, vitamin mixes, etc.) are pretty common in any processed food, which -- let's be honest here -- a lot of us buy pretty regularly. I'm not sure there's anything there that's unique to the Impossible Burger other than the "soy leghemoglobin".
      - Spivak 6y ago
        Yeast extract is Marmite! And dextrose is a derivative of corn syrup. And enriched flour is characterized by having vitamins added to it. So they’re not that uncommon either.
        chipotle_coyote 6y ago
        D'oh! Being an American with little Marmite exposure, I'd totally forgotten it was yeast extract. :)
      - GordonS 6y ago
        I don't know what on earth you cook at home, but "salt" and maybe "sunflower oil" are about the only things on that long list that sound like a "standard home cooking ingredient".
    - Spivak 6y ago
      Yes and no. All of these are common ingredients in commercial food production. You’ll see these in all sorts of stuff at your local grocery store. Not so common in your kitchen though.
  - Grustaf 6y ago
    I think that’s why fake meat is so popular in the US, where all food is very processed, and the concept of natural food is something only the rich care about. The average person already eats ultra processed low industrial food, so the switch is easy, and since it will make a few companies a ton of money, it’s being heavily promoted everywhere.
- henrikschroder 6y ago
  > Or they’ll say “why have a fake burger, can’t you just enjoy vegetarian food, why does it have to be a burger? If you want burger just eat one and stop trying to copy meat, innovate on your own”. It's hilarious, because there's one comment just like that below yours now. > The high high majority of meat consumption is not high quality product, but the absolutely lowest quality possible. Yes, this. A lot of people, myself included, eat a lot of meat dishes simply out of habit. Switching those dishes to vegetarian dishes is simply not going to happen, because the force of habit is so strong. If I want a spaghetti bolognese, a spaghetti marinara isn't the same thing! But if I can make my bolognese with a plant-based meat alternative so that it gets the same taste and texture as the real thing, that's a win, and that's something I, and a lot of people, will be willing to do. I suspect that all the people arguing for vegetarian dishes are people who would always choose the marinara over the bolognese, and therefore don't see the big deal. > It’s so easy to swap out they meh hamburger patty you have at a bbq with a plant based one, be healthier, and have less impact on the environment. Even better, have McDonalds and Burger King and every other fast food joint swap out their meat! The Impossible Whopper is almost there now. It just needs to get a couple of notches better, and be the same price as a meat Whopper and there'd zero reason to choose the meat Whopper anymore. And if you can get the Impossible one cheaper than the meat one, it will be the default choice, and you'd have eliminated an absolutely massive amount of habitual meat consumption. Win-win-win.
  - OJFord 6y ago
    > The Impossible Whopper is almost there now. It just needs to get a couple of notches better, and be the same price as a meat Whopper and there'd zero reason to choose the meat Whopper anymore. And if you can get the Impossible one cheaper than the meat one, it will be the default choice, I'm not sure about cheaper, I think that might have some of effects - perceived inferiority, etc.
    - ianai 6y ago
      If it means more people are able to eat more nutritiously I say do both. They can pump some more oil into a higher priced version or something.
- shagie 6y ago
  I enjoy eating meat... the texture, the savory nature of its flavor. Back when I lived in the bay, my brother and I found a vegan restaurant - Golden Era. He had taken me to other vegetarian restaurants and they always felt lacking for something. Golden Era... the 'chicken' drumsticks - ok, they were on a wooden stick, but the texture of whatever it was was right. Then Mongolian 'chicken' had a texture to it too and the sauce provided a nice savory to it. Since then, some others suggested that the texture may have been from jackfruit (some day I'll hunt up some around here and see if I can make a reasonable BBQ Jackfruit sandwich. But yea - the thing that had me not pass on my brother asking if I wanted to head to Golden Era was that it felt right when it was being chewed.
  - WalterSear 6y ago
    Golden Era are (were? I do hope they are still around) doing something with tofu and wheat gluten. The preparation is more involved than your basic 'throw it in a blender' seitan steak, but the result is totally worth it. You can get really fulfilling textures and flavours, and quite a variety, to boot.
    - shagie 6y ago
      Are. They're accepting takeout only and have a few recommended delivery companies. https://www.goldeneravegan.com https://www.goldeneravegan.com The pot stickers are still there as are the drumsticks. The drumsticks now say 'soy "chicken"' (the menu that I remember didn't have that - http://d2by9dx2k0n1tg.cloudfront.net/menus/1/1829/public.jpg?1301997953 http://d2by9dx2k0n1tg.cloudfront.net/menus/1/1829/public.jpg... ) and ghads... the price has gone from 4 @ $5.95 to 3 @ $8.00 Likewise, the "Spicy Mongolian Delight" is now listed as "slices of soy protein, bell peppers, & onion in a spicy sweet sauce" (which has gone from $7.95 to $12.50) --- In other vegan... the Fisch Stix and "Chicken" Fingers from https://cheezefactoryrestaurant.com/menu https://cheezefactoryrestaurant.com/menu are good (though I'm a bit wary of trying to get the fish flavor and texture right). My "it might have been jackfruit" - look at https://www.loveandlemons.com/bbq-jackfruit-recipes/ https://www.loveandlemons.com/bbq-jackfruit-recipes/ and the way that its nearly indistinguishable from pulled pork in appearance and apparently unripe jackfruit has a pork like savory taste when cooked.
- mikepurvis 6y ago
  There's totally a place for both. If your plant-based product is trying directly to ape meat, then yeah definitely call it meat. I for one eat a mix of real meat, plant-based meat, and non-meat protein options— tofu stirfry, falafel burger, etc.
- watwut 6y ago
  > If you get fake meat close enough in taste/texture/price you’ll move a large amount of product. But you are not getting them close enough for that. They taste different. They also have different nutritional composition, so if you will just replace meat by then brainlessly you are setting yourself up to failure. Vegetarians who did not eate meat for years claim the taste is similar, but nobody else. And these could be good, if someone did not raised expectations up to "like meet" to sell it and then failed to execute.
  - henrikschroder 6y ago
    > But you are not getting them close enough for that. They taste different. They also have different nutritional composition, so if you will just replace meat by then brainlessly you are setting yourself up to failure. Have you actually tried Beyond Meat or Impossible Burger? If you haven't please do. Just go to your nearest Burger King and order an Impossible Whopper and a regular Whopper and compare them. They're very close to the taste and texture of real ground beef now, and I think they'll get even better with time, and that they can become as tasty as the real deal, as nutritious as the real deal, and cheaper.
hunter-gatherer 6y ago
> People eat meat because they like the taste and the texture, but at the same time everyone knows that meat is produced by killing animals, and that it's much less sustainable than vegetarian food. I think this is too generous. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but the implicit message here is that people actually care about the animals and sustainability of meat farming. My spouse is vegetarian and I'm whatever. I don't buy meat but if it finds itself in front of me I'll eat it. I have had the conversation of the horrors of meat production many times at the dinner table with a spectrum of people, and nobody changed their habits. Yes, this is anecdotal, and I'm willing to read a source and change my opinion if there is some evidence that people actually give a shit about the animals. As far as I can tell, it is all just virtue signaling at best. I agree with OP. I think we would be better served in the long run creating good consumables that have the caloric density and amino acid profiles found in meats and encourage people to eat those instead of trying to replicate something we should be horrified about.
- scottLobster 6y ago
  As an avid meat-eater (because nature almost by definition is living things eating other living things and humans evolved to be omnivorous for various nutritional reasons), my answer to the animal cruelty argument is just to buy the top-shelf, pasture-raised meats. It's better for my health and much better for the animals. Obviously I have no control over where restaurants source their food from, but I try to preference those who claim ethical/sustainable practices. As for sustainability, the answer to that is to develop systems that price in environmental externalities. The issue isn't going to be solved through a meat boycott. Farm raised fish is also quite sustainable. I'm personally looking forward to economically viable lab-grown meat. Once perfected it'll likely be the most sustainable option with none of the nutritional deficits and none of the ethical concerns. Plus we'll be able to engineer meat with tastes that don't exist in nature, endless variety!
  - f430 6y ago
    > my answer to the animal cruelty argument is just to buy the top-shelf, pasture-raised meats. So the solution is to pay more. Got it.
Grustaf 6y ago
Well you could also just promote delicious vegetarian dishes. There are entire cultures that mostly eat vegetarian. Fake meat is such a silly concept.
- jayphen 6y ago
  Tofu and wheat gluten have been used for centuries as meat analogues in many cultures (especially those that mostly eat vegetarian). It’s not a silly concept at all, and opens up a world of delicious culinary options to those of us who don’t eat animal flesh.
  - Grustaf 6y ago
    Tofu is nothing like meat in neither taste nor texture, and I’m pretty sure it has never been seen as a meat substitute traditionally.
    - runarberg 6y ago
      I don’t think parent was ever saying that tofu was (nor should) be similar to meat in taste nor texture. That is not the point. You can still prepare and spice tofu just like you would do with meat, and get a complete meal that replaces meat with something else that adds to the quality of the meal just like meat would, regardless of whether the substitute replicates the texture or taste at all.
      - Grustaf 6y ago
        That is much closer to my standpoint then. I think it’s silly to imitate meat, when there are plenty of delicious vegetarian dishes. For example tofu dishes.
        jayphen 6y ago
        During my life as a vegetarian/vegan I regularly consume “fake meat” products because they are simple to prepare and allow me to use recipes that are not vegetarian. For example, it’s extremely hard to find a good vegetarian burger — the beyond burger was a revelation the first time I tried it. I still like burgers, even though there are many wonderful vegetarian dishes. I didn’t stop eating meat because I don’t like the taste of meat. Imagine that many of your favourite dishes, those you grew up with, were suddenly unavailable to you because some ingredient no longer existed. If a new ingredient hit the market that was not quite the same but was a convincing substitute in taste and texture, would you consider it silly and avoid it?
monkeycantype 6y ago
I agree. The marketing innovation that has made plant meat successful (at least where I am) has been marketing it to meat eaters in the meat aisle, stripping away the vegetarian identity association
aylmao 6y ago
Not OP, but as someone who is not vegetarian/vegan and is from a country with a cuisine that revolves heavily around meat (Mexican) I have to agree with OP. > If you want to get people to switch to meat alternatives, you have to keep everything that's great about meat (taste, texture, proteins), while removing everything that's bad about meat (slaughter, livestock industry). I think one thing is making sure it's great, and another thing is making sure it's the same, and you can have something that's great and heavily impacts the market without having it be the same. Just thinking of a random example where this worked; MDF is very much not wood, but it's pretty great for most things. People still buy a lot of wooden furniture, surfaces, etc but for a lot of use-cases MDF does just fine. MDF isn't trying to have the same weight, the exact same texture, or be as solid as wood. It's another material and it's marketed as another material, not as "replacement wood" or something along those lines. Thinking of an example where this hasn't worked; Stadia. Google is very much trying to replace consoles and is focusing on AAA games, but the thing is, as it stands today, Stadia is not a console replacement. The way google is positioning Stadia though puts it in the eyes of hardcore gamers who care about the details: the latency, the streaming resolution, etc. Perhaps if they weren't trying to sell it as your next AAA-game console, they would attract a section of the population that just wants to play games easily, and don't care so much about the specifics. The goal here is to not fully replace the market, but shrink it. Another point worth making is that it's hard to imagine we can reverse the trend in global warming keeping excessive consumer habits— people need to change too. Sure, electric cars will consume less CO2 and they are an easy short-term solution in a car-centric society, but cities need to be planned better so car use in general decreases. Sure, recycled plastics can reduce or plastic waste, but we shouldn't be producing so many water bottles in the first place. Plant-based "meat" are likewise a step in the right direction, but it's also the case meant consumption is just very high. Trying to offer solutions that don't tackle the underlying problem make hard to guarantee long-term sustainability.
- henrikschroder 6y ago
  > Trying to offer solutions that don't tackle the underlying problem make hard to guarantee long-term sustainability. Maybe, but solutions that go against human nature are doomed to fail in the first place. Asceticism doesn't work. Asking people to do the right thing only has a tiny marginal effect. The only solution to get long-term sustainability is to offer people a better, greener, more sustainable alternative, that doesn't inconvenience people. To overcome the force of habit, your alternative has to be both better and cheaper if you want to see mass adoption. Otherwise you'll just get niche adoption, which is pretty much useless on the grand scale of things.
foerbert 6y ago
I think you and OP are talking about different things. For most products, and virtually all that aren't particularly modern, they suffer from being set up as direct replacements for meat. Take fake deli meats, for example. There are options that make a good sandwich. But they don't make a good $specific-meat sandwich. If they found a way to position themselves more in the vein of ham vs turkey vs plant-based sandwich they would do far, far better. Instead they position themselves as fake-ham or something, and then some unsuspecting person trying out plant-based alternatives goes in expecting a ham sandwich and ends up with their expectations rather violated. People don't like that, particularly with food. But they went in just expecting some kind of sandwich, I think they very well might enjoy it. I've been vegetarian-tending-towards-vegan for over a decade and I still occasionally fall into that trap if I'm not careful. Products like Impossible are the exception. They are so notable because they are getting into the realm where a direct comparison with meat actually works in their favor. I think that's great. I think you are right that this is the key for convincing many people to move away from meat. It's so much easier to market something as another version of meat, rather than a whole new thing. But I also think it's worth keeping in mind that they are exceptional products, and what works for them may not be the best for others.
- Baeocystin 6y ago
  I agree with you. I know more than one person who would turn up their nose at a 'veggie meat' sandwich, but would happily tuck in to a falafel wrap. Marketing matters!
  - asutekku 6y ago
    Yes, but those people are usually already vegetarians. ”Fake meat” is meant for people who still do it meat, not for someone who has completely banished it from their lives.
    - foerbert 6y ago
      Is it? I find it hard to believe that. If that was true, the market for these products would be vanishingly small. Every potential customer would be merely in the process of transitioning out of the market. I'm certainly a counter-example, and know a few others. Though I also do know one person that has no desire for them, but they also tend to avoid more prepared or processed foods entirely.
runarberg 6y ago
> People eat meat because they like the taste and the texture AFAIK people usually don’t like the flavor nor texture of meat. If that was the case, you would see more people boiling the meat and not spice it. But AFAIK meat eaters tend to spice their meat a lot, to an extent where there it is the spice is the primary taste. They then oil the meat and prefer it fried or grilled which alters the texture as well. With plant based food you have all these options and more.
- jfim 6y ago
  > AFAIK people usually don’t like the flavor nor texture of meat. If that was the case, you would see more people boiling the meat and not spice it. If that was true, steaks would not be a thing. A good steak has some coarse salt and pepper for seasoning, but not much else. Boiling meat is pretty much the worst way to prepare any cut of meat, and will ensure that it has a tough and unpleasant texture, strip all of the fats making it dry, and overall ruin a perfectly good cut of meat. > But AFAIK meat eaters tend to spice their meat a lot, to an extent where there it is the spice is the primary taste. That's just like saying "if people liked the taste of vegetables they wouldn't put salt or pepper on them." Most people wouldn't eat plain tofu either, but it doesn't mean that it's bad, just means that it needs to be prepared as part of a dish, just like any other ingredient.
  - themeiguoren 6y ago
    > Boiling meat is pretty much the worst way to prepare any cut of meat Pulled chicken and pork would like to have a word. The trick is to let the meat cool down in the water after boiling so that it reabsorbs the fluid it lost. You get wonderfully tender and juicy pulled meat, plus a good stock. And the world of braising is a deep and delicious one. Not to mention meat-based stews, soups, and chowders. I’d suggest that if you hate meat that’s been boiled, it’s been from someone who doesn’t know how to do it. Which I mean not as a dig, but as a way of saying that there’s a lot of good cooking out there waiting to be discovered!
  - runarberg 6y ago
    You are just reiterating my point exactly. People like to alter the taste and texture of the food we eat. We do it with our plant based food, and—to a much greater extent—we do it to our meat based food. Also, salt is a very powerful spice.
sigmaprimus 6y ago
>I think you are completely wrong. Not completely wrong, You mentioned earlier attemps failing and as a person who opened their mind and wallet, I ate at a vegan restaurant in the 90s and can say it ruined tofu and taro root for me. Also the livestock industry is not all bad, many industrial livestock operations could be considered "bad" but there are still ethical people that raise animals for food just like I'm sure there are unethical vegans out there...some sell drugs. Some commit crime. Some are rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.
gcanyon 6y ago
I think it's a function of the quality of the imitation by vegetarian options. Years back I said the same think as the person you're responding to, because the "meat" was in no way a reasonable substitute. It wasn't at all similar to actual meat, so why bother calling it "meat"? Now that they're getting close, I agree with you and it makes more sense to call it "meat" because it's very close to being indistinguishable. I love a good hamburger or steak, but I'll happily give it up when there's something not-animal-based that's as good.
tomjen3 6y ago
I eat meat because I like the taste, but I don't give a hoot about the slaughter/animals. I don't want a replacement for my steak that is a bad steak, and I don't want to ruin great vegetables by making them into something that is not.

tashoecraft 6y ago

Agreed. So many non vegetarian/vegan people say stuff like this and it’s just wrong. Or they’ll say “why have a fake burger, can’t you just enjoy vegetarian food, why does it have to be a burger? If you want burger just eat one and stop trying to copy meat, innovate on your own”. It’s just people completely missing the point. If you get fake meat close enough in taste/texture/price you’ll move a large amount of product. The high high majority of meat consumption is not high quality product, but the absolutely lowest quality possible. It’s so easy to swap out they meh hamburger patty you have at a bbq with a plant based one, be healthier, and have less impact on the environment.

drukenemo 6y ago
Plant-based food aimed at replacing meat is often a too-many ingredient, industrialised nightmare.
- henrikschroder 6y ago
  ...unlike the animal industry which is just full of fluffy, happy, loved cows who proudly line themselves up to be turned into tasty beef for your pleasure... Have you seen the animal industry? It's absolutely disgusting. Getting rid of that would be an enormous net win, both ethical and environmental.
  - snakeboy 6y ago
    Ethics aside, I think the parent comment was referring to weird additives and oils in things like the Impossible Burger. That being said, I think it's only fair to compare that to all the antibiotics, hormones, and fertilizers that your average low-grade ground beef has been exposed to or fed.
    - henrikschroder 6y ago
      > I think the parent comment was referring to weird additives and oils Weird, how? Weird, because they have funny names that are hard to pronounce, and are therefore magically "unnatural" and bad for you? Or weird, because their effects on nutrition, digestion, and human health hasn't been widely studied yet?
      - nkozyra 6y ago
        Both. This pursuit of tasting "kinda like meat" has incurred a lot of odd ingredients most people would normally eschew if they knew the extent of study in human consumption. Plain meat has a much better track record. I don't blame any meat eater for rolling their eyes at this stuff. And the decisions are sometimes odd. Like beet juice being added not for flavor but so it looks like the patty is bleeding. Meat eaters aren't sold because the veggie burger looks rare. The truth is meat eaters aren't, en massé, abandoning meat for a plant based alternative that provides little to no health benefit and costs just as much or more. Will we get there? Probably. But we're in a weird limbo area that is barely appealing to either side of the fence other than as a novelty.
        Badfood 6y ago
        Meat has a better track record huh? Basically all cardiovascular diseases are caused by animal products. Those 'odd ingredients' don't seem so odd to me. Go through the list of a meat alternative one by one, you'll be surprised how mundane they are
        6y ago
- wyre 6y ago
  Is that kinda like how mass produced meat is literally an industrialized nightmare? Or are you just saying that having more than a handful of ingredients is bad?
- opan 6y ago
  I agree. I've been eating vegan a while, and I've hated certain foods such as onions for my whole life. A ton of fake meat is pre-seasoned with onions and other stuff. Hard to find things I even want to try among it. Typically a beef hotdog would come unseasoned, so it's a bit unfortunate. There's still plenty good food to eat, but the fake meat is not the most exciting stuff to me.
- nkozyra 6y ago
  Not to mention they still don't taste like meat. The Impossible Burger comes closest and i think it's fine for getting a meat eater to give it a shot but I'd rather eat a black bean burger with just a few ingredients at a fraction of the cost.
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    I tried the A&W fake meat burger (I think theirs is Beyond brand) and I have to say in the context of a burger with toppings, it was quite good. Probably 95% as enjoyable as an A&W beef burger.
- sitharus 6y ago
  So is the animal industry in the USA, with ammonia-washed meat, wide-scale deployment of antibiotics (which has the knock-on effect of helping create antibiotic resistance), and the use of growth hormones in cattle to increase production. I'm not defending the plant-based industry here, but the way meat is produced in the USA is also a nightmare.
  - torgian 6y ago
    I basically avoid American meat for these reasons, and typically source my beef from Australia , Japan or other countries ( which is easier since I live in Taiwan ). But honestly I’m not 100% sure how much better aussy and Japanese meats are.
- elif 6y ago
  I'm not sure that tracks. Impossible burger: Water, Soy Protein Concentrate, Coconut Oil, Sunflower Oil, Natural Flavors, 2% Or Less Of: Potato Protein, Methylcellulose, Yeast Extract, Cultured Dextrose, Food Starch Modified, Soy Leghemoglobin, Salt, Mixed Tocopherols (Antioxidant), Soy Protein Isolate, Vitamins and Minerals (Zinc Gluconate, Thiamine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B1), Niacin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Vitamin B12). These are common ingredients?
  - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
    For the vast majority of those ingredients, the answer sure looks like "yes." A few are literally standard home cooking ingredients, and nearly all the rest (dextrose, yeast extract, vitamin mixes, etc.) are pretty common in any processed food, which -- let's be honest here -- a lot of us buy pretty regularly. I'm not sure there's anything there that's unique to the Impossible Burger other than the "soy leghemoglobin".
    - Spivak 6y ago
      Yeast extract is Marmite! And dextrose is a derivative of corn syrup. And enriched flour is characterized by having vitamins added to it. So they’re not that uncommon either.
      - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
        D'oh! Being an American with little Marmite exposure, I'd totally forgotten it was yeast extract. :)
    - GordonS 6y ago
      I don't know what on earth you cook at home, but "salt" and maybe "sunflower oil" are about the only things on that long list that sound like a "standard home cooking ingredient".
  - Spivak 6y ago
    Yes and no. All of these are common ingredients in commercial food production. You’ll see these in all sorts of stuff at your local grocery store. Not so common in your kitchen though.
- Grustaf 6y ago
  I think that’s why fake meat is so popular in the US, where all food is very processed, and the concept of natural food is something only the rich care about. The average person already eats ultra processed low industrial food, so the switch is easy, and since it will make a few companies a ton of money, it’s being heavily promoted everywhere.
henrikschroder 6y ago
> Or they’ll say “why have a fake burger, can’t you just enjoy vegetarian food, why does it have to be a burger? If you want burger just eat one and stop trying to copy meat, innovate on your own”. It's hilarious, because there's one comment just like that below yours now. > The high high majority of meat consumption is not high quality product, but the absolutely lowest quality possible. Yes, this. A lot of people, myself included, eat a lot of meat dishes simply out of habit. Switching those dishes to vegetarian dishes is simply not going to happen, because the force of habit is so strong. If I want a spaghetti bolognese, a spaghetti marinara isn't the same thing! But if I can make my bolognese with a plant-based meat alternative so that it gets the same taste and texture as the real thing, that's a win, and that's something I, and a lot of people, will be willing to do. I suspect that all the people arguing for vegetarian dishes are people who would always choose the marinara over the bolognese, and therefore don't see the big deal. > It’s so easy to swap out they meh hamburger patty you have at a bbq with a plant based one, be healthier, and have less impact on the environment. Even better, have McDonalds and Burger King and every other fast food joint swap out their meat! The Impossible Whopper is almost there now. It just needs to get a couple of notches better, and be the same price as a meat Whopper and there'd zero reason to choose the meat Whopper anymore. And if you can get the Impossible one cheaper than the meat one, it will be the default choice, and you'd have eliminated an absolutely massive amount of habitual meat consumption. Win-win-win.
- OJFord 6y ago
  > The Impossible Whopper is almost there now. It just needs to get a couple of notches better, and be the same price as a meat Whopper and there'd zero reason to choose the meat Whopper anymore. And if you can get the Impossible one cheaper than the meat one, it will be the default choice, I'm not sure about cheaper, I think that might have some of effects - perceived inferiority, etc.
  - ianai 6y ago
    If it means more people are able to eat more nutritiously I say do both. They can pump some more oil into a higher priced version or something.
shagie 6y ago
I enjoy eating meat... the texture, the savory nature of its flavor. Back when I lived in the bay, my brother and I found a vegan restaurant - Golden Era. He had taken me to other vegetarian restaurants and they always felt lacking for something. Golden Era... the 'chicken' drumsticks - ok, they were on a wooden stick, but the texture of whatever it was was right. Then Mongolian 'chicken' had a texture to it too and the sauce provided a nice savory to it. Since then, some others suggested that the texture may have been from jackfruit (some day I'll hunt up some around here and see if I can make a reasonable BBQ Jackfruit sandwich. But yea - the thing that had me not pass on my brother asking if I wanted to head to Golden Era was that it felt right when it was being chewed.
- WalterSear 6y ago
  Golden Era are (were? I do hope they are still around) doing something with tofu and wheat gluten. The preparation is more involved than your basic 'throw it in a blender' seitan steak, but the result is totally worth it. You can get really fulfilling textures and flavours, and quite a variety, to boot.
  - shagie 6y ago
    Are. They're accepting takeout only and have a few recommended delivery companies. https://www.goldeneravegan.com https://www.goldeneravegan.com The pot stickers are still there as are the drumsticks. The drumsticks now say 'soy "chicken"' (the menu that I remember didn't have that - http://d2by9dx2k0n1tg.cloudfront.net/menus/1/1829/public.jpg?1301997953 http://d2by9dx2k0n1tg.cloudfront.net/menus/1/1829/public.jpg... ) and ghads... the price has gone from 4 @ $5.95 to 3 @ $8.00 Likewise, the "Spicy Mongolian Delight" is now listed as "slices of soy protein, bell peppers, & onion in a spicy sweet sauce" (which has gone from $7.95 to $12.50) --- In other vegan... the Fisch Stix and "Chicken" Fingers from https://cheezefactoryrestaurant.com/menu https://cheezefactoryrestaurant.com/menu are good (though I'm a bit wary of trying to get the fish flavor and texture right). My "it might have been jackfruit" - look at https://www.loveandlemons.com/bbq-jackfruit-recipes/ https://www.loveandlemons.com/bbq-jackfruit-recipes/ and the way that its nearly indistinguishable from pulled pork in appearance and apparently unripe jackfruit has a pork like savory taste when cooked.
mikepurvis 6y ago
There's totally a place for both. If your plant-based product is trying directly to ape meat, then yeah definitely call it meat. I for one eat a mix of real meat, plant-based meat, and non-meat protein options— tofu stirfry, falafel burger, etc.
watwut 6y ago
> If you get fake meat close enough in taste/texture/price you’ll move a large amount of product. But you are not getting them close enough for that. They taste different. They also have different nutritional composition, so if you will just replace meat by then brainlessly you are setting yourself up to failure. Vegetarians who did not eate meat for years claim the taste is similar, but nobody else. And these could be good, if someone did not raised expectations up to "like meet" to sell it and then failed to execute.
- henrikschroder 6y ago
  > But you are not getting them close enough for that. They taste different. They also have different nutritional composition, so if you will just replace meat by then brainlessly you are setting yourself up to failure. Have you actually tried Beyond Meat or Impossible Burger? If you haven't please do. Just go to your nearest Burger King and order an Impossible Whopper and a regular Whopper and compare them. They're very close to the taste and texture of real ground beef now, and I think they'll get even better with time, and that they can become as tasty as the real deal, as nutritious as the real deal, and cheaper.

hunter-gatherer 6y ago

> People eat meat because they like the taste and the texture, but at the same time everyone knows that meat is produced by killing animals, and that it's much less sustainable than vegetarian food. I think this is too generous. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but the implicit message here is that people actually care about the animals and sustainability of meat farming. My spouse is vegetarian and I'm whatever. I don't buy meat but if it finds itself in front of me I'll eat it. I have had the conversation of the horrors of meat production many times at the dinner table with a spectrum of people, and nobody changed their habits. Yes, this is anecdotal, and I'm willing to read a source and change my opinion if there is some evidence that people actually give a shit about the animals. As far as I can tell, it is all just virtue signaling at best. I agree with OP. I think we would be better served in the long run creating good consumables that have the caloric density and amino acid profiles found in meats and encourage people to eat those instead of trying to replicate something we should be horrified about.

scottLobster 6y ago
As an avid meat-eater (because nature almost by definition is living things eating other living things and humans evolved to be omnivorous for various nutritional reasons), my answer to the animal cruelty argument is just to buy the top-shelf, pasture-raised meats. It's better for my health and much better for the animals. Obviously I have no control over where restaurants source their food from, but I try to preference those who claim ethical/sustainable practices. As for sustainability, the answer to that is to develop systems that price in environmental externalities. The issue isn't going to be solved through a meat boycott. Farm raised fish is also quite sustainable. I'm personally looking forward to economically viable lab-grown meat. Once perfected it'll likely be the most sustainable option with none of the nutritional deficits and none of the ethical concerns. Plus we'll be able to engineer meat with tastes that don't exist in nature, endless variety!
- f430 6y ago
  > my answer to the animal cruelty argument is just to buy the top-shelf, pasture-raised meats. So the solution is to pay more. Got it.

Grustaf 6y ago

Well you could also just promote delicious vegetarian dishes. There are entire cultures that mostly eat vegetarian. Fake meat is such a silly concept.

jayphen 6y ago
Tofu and wheat gluten have been used for centuries as meat analogues in many cultures (especially those that mostly eat vegetarian). It’s not a silly concept at all, and opens up a world of delicious culinary options to those of us who don’t eat animal flesh.
- Grustaf 6y ago
  Tofu is nothing like meat in neither taste nor texture, and I’m pretty sure it has never been seen as a meat substitute traditionally.
  - runarberg 6y ago
    I don’t think parent was ever saying that tofu was (nor should) be similar to meat in taste nor texture. That is not the point. You can still prepare and spice tofu just like you would do with meat, and get a complete meal that replaces meat with something else that adds to the quality of the meal just like meat would, regardless of whether the substitute replicates the texture or taste at all.
    - Grustaf 6y ago
      That is much closer to my standpoint then. I think it’s silly to imitate meat, when there are plenty of delicious vegetarian dishes. For example tofu dishes.
      - jayphen 6y ago
        During my life as a vegetarian/vegan I regularly consume “fake meat” products because they are simple to prepare and allow me to use recipes that are not vegetarian. For example, it’s extremely hard to find a good vegetarian burger — the beyond burger was a revelation the first time I tried it. I still like burgers, even though there are many wonderful vegetarian dishes. I didn’t stop eating meat because I don’t like the taste of meat. Imagine that many of your favourite dishes, those you grew up with, were suddenly unavailable to you because some ingredient no longer existed. If a new ingredient hit the market that was not quite the same but was a convincing substitute in taste and texture, would you consider it silly and avoid it?

monkeycantype 6y ago

I agree. The marketing innovation that has made plant meat successful (at least where I am) has been marketing it to meat eaters in the meat aisle, stripping away the vegetarian identity association

aylmao 6y ago

Not OP, but as someone who is not vegetarian/vegan and is from a country with a cuisine that revolves heavily around meat (Mexican) I have to agree with OP. > If you want to get people to switch to meat alternatives, you have to keep everything that's great about meat (taste, texture, proteins), while removing everything that's bad about meat (slaughter, livestock industry). I think one thing is making sure it's great, and another thing is making sure it's the same, and you can have something that's great and heavily impacts the market without having it be the same. Just thinking of a random example where this worked; MDF is very much not wood, but it's pretty great for most things. People still buy a lot of wooden furniture, surfaces, etc but for a lot of use-cases MDF does just fine. MDF isn't trying to have the same weight, the exact same texture, or be as solid as wood. It's another material and it's marketed as another material, not as "replacement wood" or something along those lines. Thinking of an example where this hasn't worked; Stadia. Google is very much trying to replace consoles and is focusing on AAA games, but the thing is, as it stands today, Stadia is not a console replacement. The way google is positioning Stadia though puts it in the eyes of hardcore gamers who care about the details: the latency, the streaming resolution, etc. Perhaps if they weren't trying to sell it as your next AAA-game console, they would attract a section of the population that just wants to play games easily, and don't care so much about the specifics. The goal here is to not fully replace the market, but shrink it. Another point worth making is that it's hard to imagine we can reverse the trend in global warming keeping excessive consumer habits— people need to change too. Sure, electric cars will consume less CO2 and they are an easy short-term solution in a car-centric society, but cities need to be planned better so car use in general decreases. Sure, recycled plastics can reduce or plastic waste, but we shouldn't be producing so many water bottles in the first place. Plant-based "meat" are likewise a step in the right direction, but it's also the case meant consumption is just very high. Trying to offer solutions that don't tackle the underlying problem make hard to guarantee long-term sustainability.

henrikschroder 6y ago
> Trying to offer solutions that don't tackle the underlying problem make hard to guarantee long-term sustainability. Maybe, but solutions that go against human nature are doomed to fail in the first place. Asceticism doesn't work. Asking people to do the right thing only has a tiny marginal effect. The only solution to get long-term sustainability is to offer people a better, greener, more sustainable alternative, that doesn't inconvenience people. To overcome the force of habit, your alternative has to be both better and cheaper if you want to see mass adoption. Otherwise you'll just get niche adoption, which is pretty much useless on the grand scale of things.

foerbert 6y ago

I think you and OP are talking about different things. For most products, and virtually all that aren't particularly modern, they suffer from being set up as direct replacements for meat. Take fake deli meats, for example. There are options that make a good sandwich. But they don't make a good $specific-meat sandwich. If they found a way to position themselves more in the vein of ham vs turkey vs plant-based sandwich they would do far, far better. Instead they position themselves as fake-ham or something, and then some unsuspecting person trying out plant-based alternatives goes in expecting a ham sandwich and ends up with their expectations rather violated. People don't like that, particularly with food. But they went in just expecting some kind of sandwich, I think they very well might enjoy it. I've been vegetarian-tending-towards-vegan for over a decade and I still occasionally fall into that trap if I'm not careful. Products like Impossible are the exception. They are so notable because they are getting into the realm where a direct comparison with meat actually works in their favor. I think that's great. I think you are right that this is the key for convincing many people to move away from meat. It's so much easier to market something as another version of meat, rather than a whole new thing. But I also think it's worth keeping in mind that they are exceptional products, and what works for them may not be the best for others.

Baeocystin 6y ago
I agree with you. I know more than one person who would turn up their nose at a 'veggie meat' sandwich, but would happily tuck in to a falafel wrap. Marketing matters!
- asutekku 6y ago
  Yes, but those people are usually already vegetarians. ”Fake meat” is meant for people who still do it meat, not for someone who has completely banished it from their lives.
  - foerbert 6y ago
    Is it? I find it hard to believe that. If that was true, the market for these products would be vanishingly small. Every potential customer would be merely in the process of transitioning out of the market. I'm certainly a counter-example, and know a few others. Though I also do know one person that has no desire for them, but they also tend to avoid more prepared or processed foods entirely.

runarberg 6y ago

> People eat meat because they like the taste and the texture AFAIK people usually don’t like the flavor nor texture of meat. If that was the case, you would see more people boiling the meat and not spice it. But AFAIK meat eaters tend to spice their meat a lot, to an extent where there it is the spice is the primary taste. They then oil the meat and prefer it fried or grilled which alters the texture as well. With plant based food you have all these options and more.

jfim 6y ago
> AFAIK people usually don’t like the flavor nor texture of meat. If that was the case, you would see more people boiling the meat and not spice it. If that was true, steaks would not be a thing. A good steak has some coarse salt and pepper for seasoning, but not much else. Boiling meat is pretty much the worst way to prepare any cut of meat, and will ensure that it has a tough and unpleasant texture, strip all of the fats making it dry, and overall ruin a perfectly good cut of meat. > But AFAIK meat eaters tend to spice their meat a lot, to an extent where there it is the spice is the primary taste. That's just like saying "if people liked the taste of vegetables they wouldn't put salt or pepper on them." Most people wouldn't eat plain tofu either, but it doesn't mean that it's bad, just means that it needs to be prepared as part of a dish, just like any other ingredient.
- themeiguoren 6y ago
  > Boiling meat is pretty much the worst way to prepare any cut of meat Pulled chicken and pork would like to have a word. The trick is to let the meat cool down in the water after boiling so that it reabsorbs the fluid it lost. You get wonderfully tender and juicy pulled meat, plus a good stock. And the world of braising is a deep and delicious one. Not to mention meat-based stews, soups, and chowders. I’d suggest that if you hate meat that’s been boiled, it’s been from someone who doesn’t know how to do it. Which I mean not as a dig, but as a way of saying that there’s a lot of good cooking out there waiting to be discovered!
- runarberg 6y ago
  You are just reiterating my point exactly. People like to alter the taste and texture of the food we eat. We do it with our plant based food, and—to a much greater extent—we do it to our meat based food. Also, salt is a very powerful spice.

sigmaprimus 6y ago

>I think you are completely wrong. Not completely wrong, You mentioned earlier attemps failing and as a person who opened their mind and wallet, I ate at a vegan restaurant in the 90s and can say it ruined tofu and taro root for me. Also the livestock industry is not all bad, many industrial livestock operations could be considered "bad" but there are still ethical people that raise animals for food just like I'm sure there are unethical vegans out there...some sell drugs. Some commit crime. Some are rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.

gcanyon 6y ago

I think it's a function of the quality of the imitation by vegetarian options. Years back I said the same think as the person you're responding to, because the "meat" was in no way a reasonable substitute. It wasn't at all similar to actual meat, so why bother calling it "meat"? Now that they're getting close, I agree with you and it makes more sense to call it "meat" because it's very close to being indistinguishable. I love a good hamburger or steak, but I'll happily give it up when there's something not-animal-based that's as good.

tomjen3 6y ago

I eat meat because I like the taste, but I don't give a hoot about the slaughter/animals. I don't want a replacement for my steak that is a bad steak, and I don't want to ruin great vegetables by making them into something that is not.