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> parents of teenage daughters argue more about parenting than do the parents of sons From my own experience. When my daughter hit 12 it was a fucking nightmar

> parents of teenage daughters argue more about parenting than do the parents of sons From my own experience. When my daughter hit 12 it was a fucking nightmare. The hormones hit girls hard and they can become incredibly difficult. That said, now she’s 13 things are much easier and look to be getting easier by the week. Although my wife and I both have to be very understanding and on the same team to deal with difficult behaviour — we have a lot of strategy meetings. Lacking empathy, and wanting independence without responsibility are part of being a teenager. But 12-year old girls can sometimes be super charged griefers. On the flip side, teenagers are actually awesome to hang out with and total joys full of creativity and fun — if you work through the refusal to clean their room, general lack of hygiene and the drama.

lifeplusplus 6y ago
I feel western culture defines teen culture in a certain way and then 'teens' act in that way. Even now and in the past, you were see as an adult by 15. https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/02/23/the-invention-of-adolescence/ https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/02/23/the-inventi... Often by age 12 girls would be fully contributing household member doing all work done by adult women and by age 14-15 so would be boys doing everything an adult men would be doing. Even now that's the case in many places in developing countries, teenagers act like complete adults in mannerism, thoughtfulness and responsibilities. Teenager is a phase that is a luxury, where despite being capable you use more than you bring/produce. In west, it gets you to be an adult without any consequences.
dgb23 6y ago
Stay strong! It’s a marathon, not a sprint.
- DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
  Nice sentiment, but I'd liken it so a 26.2 mile sprint.
ars 6y ago
> and look to be getting easier by the week. Good luck :) From my understanding the worst age is actually closer to 14/15, and only by 17 or so do things get better.
- rantwasp 6y ago
  you had to be that person that took away the hope... :))
  - sdenton4 6y ago
    Well, if it helps, different kids are different, and hit their hard times at various ages. (As a one time camp counselor, I've seen all kinds of easy and problem kids of all different ages!)
- biehl 6y ago
  From my time as a school teacher substitute in Denmark my experience is that 12-14 (7th and 8th grade) is the worst.
Angostura 6y ago
> On the flip side, teenagers are actually awesome to hang out with and total joys full of creativity and fun I absolutely agree.
DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
> if you work through the refusal to clean their room Well, is it their room or not? If it’s their room, viz. their inviolable space, what basis[1] do you have to enforce your standards on others’ spaces? Unless it’s an actual hygiene/H&S/hoarding situation, or part of the de-jure shared living space (like a Jack+Jill bathroom) then a messy room isn’t a real problem, and raising a fuss about it is only going to create conflict. [1]: “my house, my rules” is not a convincing argument: your kids have no choice w.r.t. where they live. EDIT: as you can tell, I’m not a parent - and am still too mentally close to adolescence :)
- Someone1234 6y ago
  The role of a parent is to help children grow into healthy functioning adults. Avoiding unnecessary conflict is something we should all strive for, avoiding all conflict is tantamount to simply not parenting. Frankly this entire argument feels like an intentional twisting of the common expression "their room."
  - DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
    I took it to mean their bedroom specifically, assuming they have a bedroom to themselves. I’m fine with having family “team cleans”: it’s a positive shared experience, and I can’t protest instilling discipline for tidiness either - I just draw the line at “tidy your room” as overstepping a crucial boundary that arbitrarily encroaches on our autonomy. By analogy, it’s like if my parents forced me to use a particular desktop wallpaper image on my computer, or restricting what I wore on weekends without a better reasoned argument than “because I said so”.
    - Someone1234 6y ago
      > I just draw the line at “tidy your room” as overstepping a crucial boundary that arbitrarily encroaches on our autonomy. Teenagers don't have full autonomy, that's why they aren't adults. Parents exist to set boundaries and expectations for teenager's future adulthood (or more specifically their viewpoint on what a normal adult is). Many teenagers enter adulthood and realize their parent's expectations weren't who they wish to be. But generally their parent's version is a good enough starting point to discover who they wish to become as an adult. If new adults decide they want to live in a mess, at that time they can choose to do so because they hopefully understand the social, functional, and health consequences of that choice. An understanding a teenager may lack.
steve_adams_86 6y ago
The last part about them being a joy to hang out with is crucial. We need to remember we were like them once. They’re little extensions of us. Whenever I have troubles with my kids I try to remember that I was a kid not that long ago. If I zoom out a little, it was just a blink. I’ll spend more of my life with my kids being adults, fate permitting, and the struggles of them figuring things out (and me as well) will be another blink. I really want to make the most of it.
- john-radio 6y ago
  > We need to remember we were like them once. To be honest I'm just barely hanging in trying to pretend I'm different now at 33.
  - steve_adams_86 6y ago
    I’m not a psychologist. All of my reflecting and self analyzing suggests current me and past me were basically the same people though. I’ve developed skills and my brain works better for certain things, but more or less the same person inside. I don’t think it’s a bad thing. I was taught my entire life that I’d grow into something and certain things would happen that would make me an adult, and i suppose I inferred this would be transformative. Not really though. If I drop that inferred notion I almost find it freeing. I’m not a kid or an adult or anything besides “me”, whatever that needs to mean in the moment.
3131s 6y ago
Consider yourself lucky, I was already in juvenile detention at that age!

lifeplusplus 6y ago

I feel western culture defines teen culture in a certain way and then 'teens' act in that way. Even now and in the past, you were see as an adult by 15. https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/02/23/the-invention-of-adolescence/ https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/02/23/the-inventi... Often by age 12 girls would be fully contributing household member doing all work done by adult women and by age 14-15 so would be boys doing everything an adult men would be doing. Even now that's the case in many places in developing countries, teenagers act like complete adults in mannerism, thoughtfulness and responsibilities. Teenager is a phase that is a luxury, where despite being capable you use more than you bring/produce. In west, it gets you to be an adult without any consequences.

dgb23 6y ago

Stay strong! It’s a marathon, not a sprint.

DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
Nice sentiment, but I'd liken it so a 26.2 mile sprint.

ars 6y ago

> and look to be getting easier by the week. Good luck :) From my understanding the worst age is actually closer to 14/15, and only by 17 or so do things get better.

rantwasp 6y ago
you had to be that person that took away the hope... :))
- sdenton4 6y ago
  Well, if it helps, different kids are different, and hit their hard times at various ages. (As a one time camp counselor, I've seen all kinds of easy and problem kids of all different ages!)
biehl 6y ago
From my time as a school teacher substitute in Denmark my experience is that 12-14 (7th and 8th grade) is the worst.

Angostura 6y ago

> On the flip side, teenagers are actually awesome to hang out with and total joys full of creativity and fun I absolutely agree.

DaiPlusPlus 6y ago

> if you work through the refusal to clean their room Well, is it their room or not? If it’s their room, viz. their inviolable space, what basis[1] do you have to enforce your standards on others’ spaces? Unless it’s an actual hygiene/H&S/hoarding situation, or part of the de-jure shared living space (like a Jack+Jill bathroom) then a messy room isn’t a real problem, and raising a fuss about it is only going to create conflict. [1]: “my house, my rules” is not a convincing argument: your kids have no choice w.r.t. where they live. EDIT: as you can tell, I’m not a parent - and am still too mentally close to adolescence :)

Someone1234 6y ago
The role of a parent is to help children grow into healthy functioning adults. Avoiding unnecessary conflict is something we should all strive for, avoiding all conflict is tantamount to simply not parenting. Frankly this entire argument feels like an intentional twisting of the common expression "their room."
- DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
  I took it to mean their bedroom specifically, assuming they have a bedroom to themselves. I’m fine with having family “team cleans”: it’s a positive shared experience, and I can’t protest instilling discipline for tidiness either - I just draw the line at “tidy your room” as overstepping a crucial boundary that arbitrarily encroaches on our autonomy. By analogy, it’s like if my parents forced me to use a particular desktop wallpaper image on my computer, or restricting what I wore on weekends without a better reasoned argument than “because I said so”.
  - Someone1234 6y ago
    > I just draw the line at “tidy your room” as overstepping a crucial boundary that arbitrarily encroaches on our autonomy. Teenagers don't have full autonomy, that's why they aren't adults. Parents exist to set boundaries and expectations for teenager's future adulthood (or more specifically their viewpoint on what a normal adult is). Many teenagers enter adulthood and realize their parent's expectations weren't who they wish to be. But generally their parent's version is a good enough starting point to discover who they wish to become as an adult. If new adults decide they want to live in a mess, at that time they can choose to do so because they hopefully understand the social, functional, and health consequences of that choice. An understanding a teenager may lack.

steve_adams_86 6y ago

The last part about them being a joy to hang out with is crucial. We need to remember we were like them once. They’re little extensions of us. Whenever I have troubles with my kids I try to remember that I was a kid not that long ago. If I zoom out a little, it was just a blink. I’ll spend more of my life with my kids being adults, fate permitting, and the struggles of them figuring things out (and me as well) will be another blink. I really want to make the most of it.

john-radio 6y ago
> We need to remember we were like them once. To be honest I'm just barely hanging in trying to pretend I'm different now at 33.
- steve_adams_86 6y ago
  I’m not a psychologist. All of my reflecting and self analyzing suggests current me and past me were basically the same people though. I’ve developed skills and my brain works better for certain things, but more or less the same person inside. I don’t think it’s a bad thing. I was taught my entire life that I’d grow into something and certain things would happen that would make me an adult, and i suppose I inferred this would be transformative. Not really though. If I drop that inferred notion I almost find it freeing. I’m not a kid or an adult or anything besides “me”, whatever that needs to mean in the moment.

3131s 6y ago

Consider yourself lucky, I was already in juvenile detention at that age!