17 ms·

It really shouldn't be called "meat". It should be called plant-based protein or meat-substitute. The definition of "meat" shouldn't change because you press

It really shouldn't be called "meat". It should be called plant-based protein or meat-substitute. The definition of "meat" shouldn't change because you press some soy to look like a chicken leg.

zionic 6y ago
I completely agree. That's one area where europe is much better than the US, they tend to force stuff to be labeled what it is.
- jdthedisciple 6y ago
  Yup, very true. Just recently German chocolate producer "RitterSport" made a new chocolate product but were disallowed to call it chocolate because it doesn't contain any sugar (they used some substitute), which according to the definition a chocolate product has to contain to be called chocolate.
  - pantalaimon 6y ago
    That turned out to be a marketing stunt https://uebermedien.de/57277/wie-man-eine-neue-schokoladensorte-in-alle-medien-bringt/ https://uebermedien.de/57277/wie-man-eine-neue-schokoladenso...
- maxerickson 6y ago
  The US has lots of those rules. It's likely enough they would apply to more specific terms, beef/chicken/pork, and so on, though.
- yreg 6y ago
  Just recently EP considered banning veggie burgers with the reasoning that something called a burger needs to contain dead animal parts.[0] I'm glad they changed their mind. [0] - https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-lawmakers-set-to-vote-on-fate-of-veggie-burgers/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-lawmakers-set-to-vote-on-...
  - ben_w 6y ago
    Likewise, but the issue there is slightly different — if they had ruled that “burgers” had to contain meat, there would be a similar but stronger argument to force “hamburgers” to only refer to those made of ham. Hamburgers are named after the place they were invented (the city of Hamburg), itself named after a big castle which in German is “Burg”. And before anyone suggests one could also argue that “they’re only allowed to be called hamburgers if they’re from Hamburg and otherwise are just sparkling fried meat patties”, I apologise for spoiling the obvious joke by having looked up the EU rules for when something can be protected with a geographical designation (feta cheese, champagne, etc.) and discovered none of that sort of thing would apply.
- neilparikh 6y ago
  I'm not sure I'd consider regulatory capture and artificial barriers to entry by existing industries to be a good outcome, which is what this is; they rules aren't implemented to protect customers.
tomrod 6y ago
Call it protein and move on?
avolcano 6y ago
I don't really understand this. I've never seen a package of plant-based meat and found myself confused, much in the same way I've never seen a carton of oat milk and thought it contained dairy. What's the concern here?
- dabbledash 6y ago
  I don’t know about the meat issue, but I’ve seen women in mother’s groups ask “what kind of milk” people were going to be giving their babies after they were done giving breast milk or formula. Some people seemed to genuinely think that something called almond milk is actually a type of milk in some meaningful sense just because of the name.
  - tedunangst 6y ago
    Wait until they find out peanut butter isn't a type of butter.
    - ben_w 6y ago
      Nor made of nuts ;)
      - FalconSensei 6y ago
        My peanut butter ingredients list: peanuts. Seems that it is made of peanuts.
        tomrod 6y ago
        Which aren't peas or nuts.
  - Falling3 6y ago
    Are you implying that children that are weaned shouldn't have non-dairy milk substitutes?
delibes 6y ago
Yes, as long as this isn't going down the route of "consumers will get confused" by terms like "oat milk". People aren't that stupid and the arguments against using the word milk annoy me. I think it's a sign that people are changing their diet and the dairy industry is worried.
- gus_massa 6y ago
  I once bought "I Can't Believe It's Not <bold><huge>Butter</huge></bold>!". I'm that stupid :(. https://www.google.com/search?q=I+can%27t+believe+it%27s+not+butter&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=I+can%27t+believe+it%27s+not...
  - delibes 6y ago
    :) There's always one. FWIW I noticed Flora do a plant-based range now that's quite good. They label the 'butter' as Plant B+tter.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- pelasaco 6y ago
  > People aren't that stupid and the arguments against using the word milk annoy me. People are not stupid to try to kill corona with disinfectant: https://time.com/5835244/accidental-poisonings-trump/ https://time.com/5835244/accidental-poisonings-trump/
- YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
  >> People aren't that stupid and the arguments against using the word milk annoy me. I think it's a sign that people are changing their diet and the dairy industry is worried. Well, calling plant mince patties "burgers" annoys me and I'm not the dairy industry, nor affiliated with it. Can we leave the annoyance aside and have a reasonable conversation about it? Here's my concern: it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that everyone should eat less meat than they eat (or rather, not everyone; just the people in cough, certain regions of the world where "meat" is synonymous with "food"; that is really not the case everywhere in the world). But in that case, let's promote plant-based cuisines, like Indian or Mediterrannean, with dishes that can be cooked at home with cheap and healthy ingredients and that do not rely on the production lines of the same large agribuisenesses that are responsible for destroying the environment with industrial farming (which includes mass-produced meat- and plant-based foods).
TECHBEAST2k 6y ago
Meat-substitute just sounds like a more generic way to say plant-based meat? Meat is also defined as the edible part of a fruit or nut. /shrug
wavefunction 6y ago
What about "nut meat" that seems to be a precedent.
websites222 6y ago
Why shouldn’t it be called meat?
- bearbawl 6y ago
  Because that’s not meat?
  - websites222 6y ago
    Sure it is. It’s right there on the label. Things are called what they are called not because they have properties which match a platonic ideal and those properties are inextricably linked with the phonetic and orthographic representations of a language. No, things are called what they are called because lots of people make those sounds or write those symbols and associate it with that thing, which people receive as information and then use themselves. In other words, you’ve already lost this battle, and you’ve lost it in many languages and countries at once. Whatever world you wish to preserve in which, for whatever reasons of comfort you insist that plant-based meat isn’t meat, no longer exists.
    - bearbawl 6y ago
      By the amount of words I’m sure I’ve lost indeed. In « many many » languages and countries, everywhere around the world, and particularly in our very small new extremism world. I have one question: why do people trying to eat only vegetables (is « vegetables » still ok?) insist so much to call that « plant-based » food « meat »?
      - websites222 6y ago
        > I have one question: why do people trying to eat only vegetables (is « vegetables » still ok?) insist so much to call that « plant-based » food « meat »? That don’t. They just read what’s on the label and call it that. It’s preservationists who see a war here: everyone else has moved on.
        6y ago
DanBC 6y ago
Meat == food, not just flesh. This is a very old definition for the word. It's also still used to describe the bits of nuts that we eat ("coconut meat"). meat, n. 1. a. Food in general; anything used as nourishment for men or animals; usually, solid food, in contradistinction to drink. Now arch. and dial. green meat: grass or green vegetables used for food or fodder (see green a. 4). See also hard meat, horsemeat, whitemeat. meal of meat, meal's meat: see meal n. 2 1e. a900: tr. Bæda's Hist. v. iv. (Schipper) 568 “He eode on his hus & þær mete [v.r. mæte] þyᵹede.” c975: Rushw. Gosp. Luke xii. 23 “Sawel mara is ðonne mett.” a1050: Liber Scintill. xlvii. (1889) 153 “Nys rice godes meta & drinc.” c1175: Lamb. Hom. 135 “Ne sculen ȝe nawiht ȝimstones leggen Swinen to mete.” c1200: Ormin 3213 “Hiss drinnch wass waterr aȝȝ occ aȝȝ, Hiss mete wilde rotess.” a1240: Lofsong in Cott. Hom. 205 “Ich habbe i-suneged ine mete and ine drunche.” a1300: Cursor M. 898 “Mold sal be þi mete for nede.” c1380: Wyclif Wks. (1880) 206 “Alas, þat so gret cost & bisynesse is sette abouten þe roten body, þat is wormes mete.” c1440: Pol. Rel. & L. Poems (1903) 185 “Thy mete shall be mylk, honye, & wyne.” 1477: Norton Ord. Alch. v. in Ashm. (1652) 76 “Without Liquor no Meate is good.” 1578: Lyte Dodoens ii. xlvi. 205 “These kindes of lillies are neither used in meate nor medicine.” 1623: Cockeram ii, “Meate of the Gods, Ambrosia, Manna.” meat, n. e. The edible part of fruits, nuts, eggs, etc.: the pulp, kernel, yolk and white, etc. in contradistinction to the rind, peel, or shell. ?Now only U.S. exc. in proverbial phrase (see quot. 1592). Also, the animal substance of a shell-fish. c1420: Pallad. on Husb. iii. 708 “A stanry pere is seyd to chaunge his mete In esy lond ygraffed yf he be.” 1530: Palsgr. 245/1 “Meate of any frute, le bon.” a1562: G. Cavendish Wolsey (1893) 30 “A very fayer orrynge wherof the mete or substaunce within was taken owt.” 1592: Shakes. Rom. & Jul. iii. i. 25 “Thy head is as full of quarrels, as an egge is full of meat.” 1613: Purchas Pilgrimage (1614) 506 “Of the meat of the Nut dried, they make oyle.” 1679: J. Skeat Art Cookery 30 “First take all the meat out of the lobster.” 1766: Museum Rust. I. lxxxiii. 370 “Low or swampy grounds don't answer well for potatoes,..the meat being generally scabby, close, wet and heavy.” 1802: Paley Nat. Theol. xx. (1819) 313 note, “The meat of a plum.” 1900: Boston Even. Transcr. 29 Mar. 7/3 “Force through a meat chopper with one-half pound nut-meats, using English walnut meats, pecan-nut meats.” 1902: Fortn. Rev. June 1012 “A bit of crab-meat.”
- ben_w 6y ago
  I guess that explains “mince pies” in the UK. For non-Brits: they are a traditional Christmas sweet pastry the size and shape of a cupcake, filled with “mincemeat”, which is meat-free and not to be confused with “minced meat”.
exyi 6y ago
The goal is to taste / look / behave like meat so why not call it plant-based meat? In the end, the properties matter, not the production process.
nomagicbullet 6y ago
I agree. Why call something that is not meat "meat"? It seems that the only valid arguments is that the term is used as a marketing strategy to confuse consumers or appeal to their subconscious.
- simias 6y ago
  It's because it's meant as a meat substitute. As far as I'm concerned it's very much conscious, if you want to make the veggie version of, say, a chicken dish you'll buy "veggie chicken" which is meant to have similar characteristics (usually in terms of flavor, appearance and consistence, not necessarily nutritional). It's hard for me not to dismiss these concerns are pure pearl clutching (or is it concern trolling? I'm not up to date on my internet debate lingo). If people really don't pay attention to the meat products they buy and they end up with veggie meat by mistake, there's a very good chance that they would've very easily ended up with some crappy ultra-processed low quality "technically meat" product instead. They might actually be better off with the plant option, quality-wise.
danShumway 6y ago
Is anyone really confused by this though? To be honest, this sounds like the same controversy as people complaining about almond "milk". I just don't see a lot of evidence that people are regularly accidentally buying vegan food. Meat has been used to refer to non-animal products for a long time, particularly around nuts. I don't think that the definition has changed as much as people are using a commonly understood term to refer to a category of food that's all used in similar situations and for similar purposes.
- WaitWaitWha 6y ago
  In my experience I think so, as I wrote on this thread. I work with some inner city folk and yes, they are convinced it is meat, just really bad meat. As with almond milk, they think it is milk with almond added to it (even when I pull out the container from the fridge and show the ingredient list).
  - therealdrag0 6y ago
    So does that make them more or less inclined to eat if?
- hoppla 6y ago
  I do not think people are confused, but the plants that are trying to be something they are not.
unsigner 6y ago
This. In the EU, you can't sell a concoction of palm oil, whey protein, fillers, flavors and colorings as "cheese" - you need to label it as "breakfast spread" or something like that. There are different words you are allowed to use for fruit-based drinks depending on how removed they are from actual fruit. Why not apply similar standards to the ersatz meat?
- websites222 6y ago
  That's because of some lobbying by the meat industry, not out of a concern for the consumer. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/oct/16/eu-ban-veggie-burger-label-parliament-vote-meat https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/oct/16/eu-ban-v...
sparrc 6y ago
should we also rename coconut milk? coconut cream? peanut butter? should we rename mincemeat since it rarely if ever contains meat anymore? and what about hot dogs...those don't contain dog do they? do we have to rename those too?
dirtyid 6y ago
>press some soy to look like a chicken leg. Are we even that there yet, seems like wide marketing died off after innovation in the space churned out one ground beef patty mcnugget meat product after another. I don't mind deceptive labelling if for mass appeal. I do want meat substitutes that actually behave and taste like meat in more than ground form. It's not viable substitute for vast majority of cuisine from around the world, that's before even getting into delicacies like offal.

It really shouldn't be called "meat". It should be called plant-based protein or meat-substitute. The definition of "meat" shouldn't change because you press some soy to look like a chicken leg.

zionic 6y ago

I completely agree. That's one area where europe is much better than the US, they tend to force stuff to be labeled what it is.

jdthedisciple 6y ago
Yup, very true. Just recently German chocolate producer "RitterSport" made a new chocolate product but were disallowed to call it chocolate because it doesn't contain any sugar (they used some substitute), which according to the definition a chocolate product has to contain to be called chocolate.
- pantalaimon 6y ago
  That turned out to be a marketing stunt https://uebermedien.de/57277/wie-man-eine-neue-schokoladensorte-in-alle-medien-bringt/ https://uebermedien.de/57277/wie-man-eine-neue-schokoladenso...
maxerickson 6y ago
The US has lots of those rules. It's likely enough they would apply to more specific terms, beef/chicken/pork, and so on, though.
yreg 6y ago
Just recently EP considered banning veggie burgers with the reasoning that something called a burger needs to contain dead animal parts.[0] I'm glad they changed their mind. [0] - https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-lawmakers-set-to-vote-on-fate-of-veggie-burgers/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-lawmakers-set-to-vote-on-...
- ben_w 6y ago
  Likewise, but the issue there is slightly different — if they had ruled that “burgers” had to contain meat, there would be a similar but stronger argument to force “hamburgers” to only refer to those made of ham. Hamburgers are named after the place they were invented (the city of Hamburg), itself named after a big castle which in German is “Burg”. And before anyone suggests one could also argue that “they’re only allowed to be called hamburgers if they’re from Hamburg and otherwise are just sparkling fried meat patties”, I apologise for spoiling the obvious joke by having looked up the EU rules for when something can be protected with a geographical designation (feta cheese, champagne, etc.) and discovered none of that sort of thing would apply.
neilparikh 6y ago
I'm not sure I'd consider regulatory capture and artificial barriers to entry by existing industries to be a good outcome, which is what this is; they rules aren't implemented to protect customers.

tomrod 6y ago

Call it protein and move on?

avolcano 6y ago

I don't really understand this. I've never seen a package of plant-based meat and found myself confused, much in the same way I've never seen a carton of oat milk and thought it contained dairy. What's the concern here?

dabbledash 6y ago
I don’t know about the meat issue, but I’ve seen women in mother’s groups ask “what kind of milk” people were going to be giving their babies after they were done giving breast milk or formula. Some people seemed to genuinely think that something called almond milk is actually a type of milk in some meaningful sense just because of the name.
- tedunangst 6y ago
  Wait until they find out peanut butter isn't a type of butter.
  - ben_w 6y ago
    Nor made of nuts ;)
    - FalconSensei 6y ago
      My peanut butter ingredients list: peanuts. Seems that it is made of peanuts.
      - tomrod 6y ago
        Which aren't peas or nuts.
- Falling3 6y ago
  Are you implying that children that are weaned shouldn't have non-dairy milk substitutes?

delibes 6y ago

Yes, as long as this isn't going down the route of "consumers will get confused" by terms like "oat milk". People aren't that stupid and the arguments against using the word milk annoy me. I think it's a sign that people are changing their diet and the dairy industry is worried.

gus_massa 6y ago
I once bought "I Can't Believe It's Not <bold><huge>Butter</huge></bold>!". I'm that stupid :(. https://www.google.com/search?q=I+can%27t+believe+it%27s+not+butter&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=I+can%27t+believe+it%27s+not...
- delibes 6y ago
  :) There's always one. FWIW I noticed Flora do a plant-based range now that's quite good. They label the 'butter' as Plant B+tter.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
pelasaco 6y ago
> People aren't that stupid and the arguments against using the word milk annoy me. People are not stupid to try to kill corona with disinfectant: https://time.com/5835244/accidental-poisonings-trump/ https://time.com/5835244/accidental-poisonings-trump/
YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
>> People aren't that stupid and the arguments against using the word milk annoy me. I think it's a sign that people are changing their diet and the dairy industry is worried. Well, calling plant mince patties "burgers" annoys me and I'm not the dairy industry, nor affiliated with it. Can we leave the annoyance aside and have a reasonable conversation about it? Here's my concern: it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that everyone should eat less meat than they eat (or rather, not everyone; just the people in cough, certain regions of the world where "meat" is synonymous with "food"; that is really not the case everywhere in the world). But in that case, let's promote plant-based cuisines, like Indian or Mediterrannean, with dishes that can be cooked at home with cheap and healthy ingredients and that do not rely on the production lines of the same large agribuisenesses that are responsible for destroying the environment with industrial farming (which includes mass-produced meat- and plant-based foods).

TECHBEAST2k 6y ago

Meat-substitute just sounds like a more generic way to say plant-based meat? Meat is also defined as the edible part of a fruit or nut. /shrug

wavefunction 6y ago

What about "nut meat" that seems to be a precedent.

websites222 6y ago

Why shouldn’t it be called meat?

bearbawl 6y ago
Because that’s not meat?
- websites222 6y ago
  Sure it is. It’s right there on the label. Things are called what they are called not because they have properties which match a platonic ideal and those properties are inextricably linked with the phonetic and orthographic representations of a language. No, things are called what they are called because lots of people make those sounds or write those symbols and associate it with that thing, which people receive as information and then use themselves. In other words, you’ve already lost this battle, and you’ve lost it in many languages and countries at once. Whatever world you wish to preserve in which, for whatever reasons of comfort you insist that plant-based meat isn’t meat, no longer exists.
  - bearbawl 6y ago
    By the amount of words I’m sure I’ve lost indeed. In « many many » languages and countries, everywhere around the world, and particularly in our very small new extremism world. I have one question: why do people trying to eat only vegetables (is « vegetables » still ok?) insist so much to call that « plant-based » food « meat »?
    - websites222 6y ago
      > I have one question: why do people trying to eat only vegetables (is « vegetables » still ok?) insist so much to call that « plant-based » food « meat »? That don’t. They just read what’s on the label and call it that. It’s preservationists who see a war here: everyone else has moved on.
      - 6y ago

DanBC 6y ago

Meat == food, not just flesh. This is a very old definition for the word. It's also still used to describe the bits of nuts that we eat ("coconut meat"). meat, n. 1. a. Food in general; anything used as nourishment for men or animals; usually, solid food, in contradistinction to drink. Now arch. and dial. green meat: grass or green vegetables used for food or fodder (see green a. 4). See also hard meat, horsemeat, whitemeat. meal of meat, meal's meat: see meal n. 2 1e. a900: tr. Bæda's Hist. v. iv. (Schipper) 568 “He eode on his hus & þær mete [v.r. mæte] þyᵹede.” c975: Rushw. Gosp. Luke xii. 23 “Sawel mara is ðonne mett.” a1050: Liber Scintill. xlvii. (1889) 153 “Nys rice godes meta & drinc.” c1175: Lamb. Hom. 135 “Ne sculen ȝe nawiht ȝimstones leggen Swinen to mete.” c1200: Ormin 3213 “Hiss drinnch wass waterr aȝȝ occ aȝȝ, Hiss mete wilde rotess.” a1240: Lofsong in Cott. Hom. 205 “Ich habbe i-suneged ine mete and ine drunche.” a1300: Cursor M. 898 “Mold sal be þi mete for nede.” c1380: Wyclif Wks. (1880) 206 “Alas, þat so gret cost & bisynesse is sette abouten þe roten body, þat is wormes mete.” c1440: Pol. Rel. & L. Poems (1903) 185 “Thy mete shall be mylk, honye, & wyne.” 1477: Norton Ord. Alch. v. in Ashm. (1652) 76 “Without Liquor no Meate is good.” 1578: Lyte Dodoens ii. xlvi. 205 “These kindes of lillies are neither used in meate nor medicine.” 1623: Cockeram ii, “Meate of the Gods, Ambrosia, Manna.” meat, n. e. The edible part of fruits, nuts, eggs, etc.: the pulp, kernel, yolk and white, etc. in contradistinction to the rind, peel, or shell. ?Now only U.S. exc. in proverbial phrase (see quot. 1592). Also, the animal substance of a shell-fish. c1420: Pallad. on Husb. iii. 708 “A stanry pere is seyd to chaunge his mete In esy lond ygraffed yf he be.” 1530: Palsgr. 245/1 “Meate of any frute, le bon.” a1562: G. Cavendish Wolsey (1893) 30 “A very fayer orrynge wherof the mete or substaunce within was taken owt.” 1592: Shakes. Rom. & Jul. iii. i. 25 “Thy head is as full of quarrels, as an egge is full of meat.” 1613: Purchas Pilgrimage (1614) 506 “Of the meat of the Nut dried, they make oyle.” 1679: J. Skeat Art Cookery 30 “First take all the meat out of the lobster.” 1766: Museum Rust. I. lxxxiii. 370 “Low or swampy grounds don't answer well for potatoes,..the meat being generally scabby, close, wet and heavy.” 1802: Paley Nat. Theol. xx. (1819) 313 note, “The meat of a plum.” 1900: Boston Even. Transcr. 29 Mar. 7/3 “Force through a meat chopper with one-half pound nut-meats, using English walnut meats, pecan-nut meats.” 1902: Fortn. Rev. June 1012 “A bit of crab-meat.”

ben_w 6y ago
I guess that explains “mince pies” in the UK. For non-Brits: they are a traditional Christmas sweet pastry the size and shape of a cupcake, filled with “mincemeat”, which is meat-free and not to be confused with “minced meat”.

exyi 6y ago

The goal is to taste / look / behave like meat so why not call it plant-based meat? In the end, the properties matter, not the production process.

nomagicbullet 6y ago

I agree. Why call something that is not meat "meat"? It seems that the only valid arguments is that the term is used as a marketing strategy to confuse consumers or appeal to their subconscious.

simias 6y ago
It's because it's meant as a meat substitute. As far as I'm concerned it's very much conscious, if you want to make the veggie version of, say, a chicken dish you'll buy "veggie chicken" which is meant to have similar characteristics (usually in terms of flavor, appearance and consistence, not necessarily nutritional). It's hard for me not to dismiss these concerns are pure pearl clutching (or is it concern trolling? I'm not up to date on my internet debate lingo). If people really don't pay attention to the meat products they buy and they end up with veggie meat by mistake, there's a very good chance that they would've very easily ended up with some crappy ultra-processed low quality "technically meat" product instead. They might actually be better off with the plant option, quality-wise.

danShumway 6y ago

Is anyone really confused by this though? To be honest, this sounds like the same controversy as people complaining about almond "milk". I just don't see a lot of evidence that people are regularly accidentally buying vegan food. Meat has been used to refer to non-animal products for a long time, particularly around nuts. I don't think that the definition has changed as much as people are using a commonly understood term to refer to a category of food that's all used in similar situations and for similar purposes.

WaitWaitWha 6y ago
In my experience I think so, as I wrote on this thread. I work with some inner city folk and yes, they are convinced it is meat, just really bad meat. As with almond milk, they think it is milk with almond added to it (even when I pull out the container from the fridge and show the ingredient list).
- therealdrag0 6y ago
  So does that make them more or less inclined to eat if?
hoppla 6y ago
I do not think people are confused, but the plants that are trying to be something they are not.

unsigner 6y ago

This. In the EU, you can't sell a concoction of palm oil, whey protein, fillers, flavors and colorings as "cheese" - you need to label it as "breakfast spread" or something like that. There are different words you are allowed to use for fruit-based drinks depending on how removed they are from actual fruit. Why not apply similar standards to the ersatz meat?

websites222 6y ago
That's because of some lobbying by the meat industry, not out of a concern for the consumer. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/oct/16/eu-ban-veggie-burger-label-parliament-vote-meat https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/oct/16/eu-ban-v...

sparrc 6y ago

should we also rename coconut milk? coconut cream? peanut butter? should we rename mincemeat since it rarely if ever contains meat anymore? and what about hot dogs...those don't contain dog do they? do we have to rename those too?

dirtyid 6y ago

>press some soy to look like a chicken leg. Are we even that there yet, seems like wide marketing died off after innovation in the space churned out one ground beef patty mcnugget meat product after another. I don't mind deceptive labelling if for mass appeal. I do want meat substitutes that actually behave and taste like meat in more than ground form. It's not viable substitute for vast majority of cuisine from around the world, that's before even getting into delicacies like offal.