5 ms·

The pretty awesome "Philosophize This" podcast* episode on Foucault, where he discusses crime and punishment over the years, makes an interesting point that alw

The pretty awesome "Philosophize This" podcast* episode on Foucault, where he discusses crime and punishment over the years, makes an interesting point that always stuck with me regarding punishment of white collar crime: "9 times out of 10 they are not going to see the inside of a prison cell because their behavior...doesn't really need much reformation in the eyes of the people in power. Keep doing almost everything you're doing...keep working, keep creating jobs, keep starting new companies and going to badminton on Sundays...just pay your taxes. Whereas the guy that robbed the Taco Bell...it doesn't matter if he marches back into the store...hands over the 85 bucks directly to the manager...baby birds the burrito supreme back into his mouth...9 times out of 10 that guy is going to jail because the goal of the penal system is reforming criminals to fit a pre-existing mold of what a normal person is." Of course this doesn't get into the very real issues of how modern US police departments work, systematic racism and other factors, but it's still an interesting perspective IMO. *transcript: https://www.philosophizethis.org/podcast/episode-121-transcript https://www.philosophizethis.org/podcast/episode-121-transcr...

bobthepanda 6y ago
It’s not really for reforming criminals into a normal person, that would require a rehabilitative system purposefully optimizing for lower recidivism rates. What we have is a vengeful, punishment oriented prison system that is designed to bludgeon people for not fitting in, and also incidentally using them for slave labor.
- imtringued 6y ago
  I don't understand the point of prison. Vengeance only makes sense if you have committed a crime so great that you could never undo it and the only way to balance the situation is to take an equal amount of damage as the victim. That's an even stronger argument in favor of prison time for white collar crime because you cannot rehabilitate the perpetrator, you can only punish him. Meanwhile for someone who is prone to violent behavior it is the opposite. That person still has the potential to do less damage in the future.
  - bobthepanda 6y ago
    That’s because reducing crime is really a secondary benefit of prison as practiced in America. The primary reason for its current form is to appease the “fire and brimstone” folks who think that crime must be a result of inherent moral failings that can never be stamped out, so it’s simply what those folks deserve. It’s the flip side of the so-called Protestant work ethic. Go to literally any news article regarding a crime, and there are still plenty of eligible voters who want even more tough-on-crime, as if that has ever solved anything. For reasons of a systemic nature, people seem to not call for this so passionately for white collar crime or the type of criminals who tend to perform it. There are very rare exceptions like Bernie Madoff but that is the exception and not the rule.
throwawayboise 6y ago
I think it simpler than that. White collar crime isn't punished because half the government would be in prison if it were. Your average city government is at least as corrupt as your average corporate organization, and probably much more so. And it gets worse the higher up you go. The government operates essentially like the mafia, only it's legal when they do it.

bobthepanda 6y ago

It’s not really for reforming criminals into a normal person, that would require a rehabilitative system purposefully optimizing for lower recidivism rates. What we have is a vengeful, punishment oriented prison system that is designed to bludgeon people for not fitting in, and also incidentally using them for slave labor.

imtringued 6y ago
I don't understand the point of prison. Vengeance only makes sense if you have committed a crime so great that you could never undo it and the only way to balance the situation is to take an equal amount of damage as the victim. That's an even stronger argument in favor of prison time for white collar crime because you cannot rehabilitate the perpetrator, you can only punish him. Meanwhile for someone who is prone to violent behavior it is the opposite. That person still has the potential to do less damage in the future.
- bobthepanda 6y ago
  That’s because reducing crime is really a secondary benefit of prison as practiced in America. The primary reason for its current form is to appease the “fire and brimstone” folks who think that crime must be a result of inherent moral failings that can never be stamped out, so it’s simply what those folks deserve. It’s the flip side of the so-called Protestant work ethic. Go to literally any news article regarding a crime, and there are still plenty of eligible voters who want even more tough-on-crime, as if that has ever solved anything. For reasons of a systemic nature, people seem to not call for this so passionately for white collar crime or the type of criminals who tend to perform it. There are very rare exceptions like Bernie Madoff but that is the exception and not the rule.

throwawayboise 6y ago

I think it simpler than that. White collar crime isn't punished because half the government would be in prison if it were. Your average city government is at least as corrupt as your average corporate organization, and probably much more so. And it gets worse the higher up you go. The government operates essentially like the mafia, only it's legal when they do it.