13 ms·

Indonesia bans forced religious attire in schools

183 points by hassanahmad 6y ago

sradman 6y ago
> Indonesia has banned public schools from making religious attire compulsory, after the story of a Christian student being pressured to wear a headscarf in class went viral. A small victory for liberty to offset the setback in Myanmar. The other ASEAN [1] countries have an opportunity to improve liberty as the rest of the world backslides into protectionism and authoritarianism. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASEAN https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASEAN
- Triv888 6y ago
  Then, this is not about forcing religious attire... it is about forcing a religion since that person was not even from that religion.
  - derefr 6y ago
    Freedom from the demands of religion tends to only really evolve in the context of freedom of religion, at the edges that form where people are practicing different religions that have conflicting access needs. It’s similar to how accessibility measures get implemented: you need a vocal group that’s disparately affected, and who needs the change in order to function properly, before anyone will bother to change how they do things. You need a “lobby.” Religious freedom is an accessibility need where “functioning properly” means “being able to adhere to the tenets of their own religious beliefs.” So the friction responsible for change only comes up where you have a “lobby” of people of another religion, where that other religion has a conflicting requirement.
    - dfee 6y ago
      The situation where an individual or group of individuals need to petition another group of individuals, to change the status quo so the first group can function - is broken. Just a reminder that utilitarianism wrongs the minority group by definition, and is barbaric.
bpodgursky 6y ago
It's a good ruling, but framing it as good news masks the fact that the law is only necessary because intolerance and religious coercion is growing at the social and local level. It was passed in direct response to a videotaped incident.
- jamesrcole 6y ago
  "Good news" doesn't have to mean "the overall trends are good". Something good can happen among a trend of bad things, and acknowledging the good thing doesn't mean denying the bad things.
FriedrichN 6y ago
This is good news. Indonesia has been on a road to become quite intolerant of other religions over the past years with some very tragic outcomes like lynchings. I have little hope that this is a sign of that process slowing down or halting or even reversing, but a win is a win I guess.
- gogopuppygogo 6y ago
  They just whipped two gay men in the streets after a burglar broke into their home and caught them in bed together. A win is a win but this isn’t a huge milestone IMHO.
  - lainga 6y ago
    Are you and GP thinking of all Indonesia or just Aceh?
    - FriedrichN 6y ago
      Aceh is especially bad, but it's happening outside of Aceh as well. There's mob violence against Christians and non-Sunni muslims, they imprisoned a Christian governor of Jakarta over "blasphemy", the state pretty much does not hire non-muslims anymore.
      - zakki 6y ago
        You should update/add your information source. There has been many non moslems, including Christian, become minister or governor or head of city/town all over Indonesia. Since its independence until now. In the beginning of current presidential period (2019-2024) there were 5 ministers as a Christian. However last year 1 is replaced due to unpopular take on COVID-19 handling and another 1 is sacked due to corruption on social programs during Jakarta’s lockdown last year. Even the governor you talked about is now becoming a commissioner for a state owned oil company. Imagine. someone out of jail, a Christian but hold a prestigious position in a state owned oil company.
jedimind 6y ago
The framing is odd though describing it as "forced" instead of simply the school's dress code. Especially when comparing it to a case in Britain a few weeks ago where a girl was threatened [1] with legal action because her skirt was 'too long'. Or how france forces girls to remove their hijabs [2]. One can always find rhetoric to justify one's decision, what I find odd tho is how a group of people will use words like "forced" in one case but will bend over backwards to justify the same forced rulings with more euphemistic language when it's in favor of their own worldview. You'll hear "it's just the law" kind of excuses, while not realizing that their own arguments could easily be used to justify the opposing case as well. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/jan/12/school-threatens-legal-action-muslim-girl-siham-hamud-skirt-too-long https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/jan/12/school-thr... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_scarf_controversy_in_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_scarf_controversy_in_F...
- underseacables 6y ago
  I don’t think you’re putting enough thought into what it means to be forced to do something. Girls in France are forced by their elders to wear the hijab. People around the planet are forced to do things according to a religious code that violently oppresses free will and freedom of expression. France has done the right thing, it has allowed girls to choose, unfortunately this has led to their parents and others who make choices for them to choose instead to force them to adhere to a strict religious code and keep them out of School, and the public. Anything that forces you to adhere to a code by means of force means a lack of free will. Now, you have free will to violate that code, but the consequences of a young woman choosing not to wear the hijab could be life-threatening. That is not free will. That is inhumane terrorism
  - jedimind 6y ago
    > Girls in France are forced by their elders to wear the hijab. That's a vile and bigoted generalization. While that can be sometimes the case, it certainly isn't mostly so. A huge number of girls who are forced to remove their hijab feel oppressed and alienated. > France has done the right thing, it has allowed girls to choose No, this is nonfactual. France forces girl to remove their hijabs that's a fact. Your rhetoric is exactly what I was referring to, not only nonfactual but grossly misleading and outright deceptive.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
GordonS 6y ago
I remember the first time I went to Indonesia, back around 2005 or so, a work trip to the small island of Batam, a ferry ride from Singapore. When Indonesian colleagues there met me for the first time, they would almost always ask what religion I practiced, in the same sort of casual way as people in the Western world might ask where you lived. I thought it was a bit weird! Anyway, I'd always say "no religion", since I don't practice or believe in any gods, afterlife etc - but this was totally incomprehensible! Heads would tilt, and I'd get baffled looks like I was mad - "uh... no, but what god you you follow?". No matter how many times or ways I said it, they just didn't seem to believe me. Someone later explained that in Indonesia you legally had to tell the government what religion you followed, and "none" was not an option.
- eunos 6y ago
  >Someone later explained that in Indonesia you legally had to tell the government what religion you followed, and "none" was not an option. That is correct, furthermore, the government only acknowledges 6 religions, although I heard that they started acknowledging some folks religion recently.
- Kye 6y ago
  It's an interesting contrast to here in the US where you're assumed Christian, and certain sects actively try to force everyone (including other Christians) to live by their specific beliefs. I'd take confusion at not following any god over anger at not following a specific version of one.
  - Retric 6y ago
    That’s really not been my experience. I don’t think I have had a religious conversation or even a question outside my immediate family in the last decade. The US is a huge country and you will experience vastly different things in different areas.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      I didn’t experience anything like the grandparent post even in places with higher proportions of religious people in the US. I even attended catholic and Lutheran schools as a kid, and no one cared about my religion (or lack of).
S53Vflnr4n 6y ago
Meanwhile Quebec banned religious attire for government servants which disproportionately affects Muslim women.
- jedimind 6y ago
  Wait for the mental gymnastics to justify that oppression with the loftiest of rhetoric.
knolax 6y ago
This has absolutely nothing to do with hacking and Indonesian school uniform regulations hardly count as "intellectually gratifying". Even if I wanted to learn more about school uniforms in a country I've never been to, whose language and culture I know nothing about, why the hell would I read about it coming from the state media of a another country I've never been to, whose journalists also know nothing about the language, culture, and political situation there?
- itisit 6y ago
  Relax. It’s good news. Women deserve way more respect than they get. This is a welcome change in just one pocket of the world.
  - aptidude187 6y ago
    Exactly, now we need schools in Britain to respect women more, instead of persecuting them for wearing skirts that are 'too long'. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/jan/12/school-threatens-legal-action-muslim-girl-siham-hamud-skirt-too-long https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/jan/12/school-thr...
  - knolax 6y ago
    It's not "news" at all. Have you ever been to Indonesia? Do you speak Indonesian? Have you even interacted with any Indonesians? Have ever read a book in Indonesian? Neither you or I have any contextual information to qualify this as good or bad news. We sure as hell shouldn't trust the BBC of all people to give us that contextual information either. The only reason people on HN care is because it's framed as a part of some weird culture/religious war. This constant projection of values on people you know nothing about is a waste time at best.
    - itisit 6y ago
      Culture doesn’t enjoy a special force field against criticism and scrutiny. And humanity transcends geography. Women the world over are entitled to respect and truly equal rights, not mere lip service. FWIW: https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2019/country-chapters/indonesia# https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2019/country-chapters/indon...
aerodog 6y ago
Are we allowed to force kids to a curriculum? If you say "yes", then what is wrong with forcing kids to a dress code? Why is force ok in one sense and not in another?
- elisaado 6y ago
  Why is it ok to force your kid to eat breakfast in the morning but not ok to force them to do <insert horrible thing>.
  - aptidude187 6y ago
    Why is it ok to force kids to remove their hijabs but not ok to force them to do <insert horrible thing>. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_scarf_controversy_in_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_scarf_controversy_in_F...
  - aerodog 6y ago
    you've presumed that forcing kids to a dress code is horrible. it isn't horrible. it's just that you (seem to not) value modesty in dress, which they do.
- neurostimulant 6y ago
  The problem is this was done is a public school, funded by taxpayer money. Although most of its population are muslim, Indonesia is not an islamic country (except Aceh, which is a special region with its own laws and autonomous government), so the public schools must accommodate every religion recognized by the country (there are 6 of them). If it's happening in a private school (e.g. islamic boarding schools or catholic schools), no one would bat an eye.
alsetmusic 6y ago
I'd like to recommend this book: The Jakarta Method[0]. Essentially, the US aided in the dismantling of a free democratic society in favor of a coup and a military dictatorship. Examples of the same being done in other countries are also provided. This was in service of obtaining natural resources. Disclaimer: It's politics are very left of center. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Jakarta-Method-Washingtons-Anticommunist-Crusade/dp/1541742400/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1PLL9SMILHCXZ&dchild=1&keywords=jakarta+method&qid=1612655186&sprefix=jakarta+%2Caps%2C211&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/Jakarta-Method-Washingtons-Anticommun...

183 points by hassanahmad 6y ago

> Indonesia has banned public schools from making religious attire compulsory, after the story of a Christian student being pressured to wear a headscarf in class went viral. A small victory for liberty to offset the setback in Myanmar. The other ASEAN [1] countries have an opportunity to improve liberty as the rest of the world backslides into protectionism and authoritarianism. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASEAN https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASEAN

Triv888 6y ago
Then, this is not about forcing religious attire... it is about forcing a religion since that person was not even from that religion.
- derefr 6y ago
  Freedom from the demands of religion tends to only really evolve in the context of freedom of religion, at the edges that form where people are practicing different religions that have conflicting access needs. It’s similar to how accessibility measures get implemented: you need a vocal group that’s disparately affected, and who needs the change in order to function properly, before anyone will bother to change how they do things. You need a “lobby.” Religious freedom is an accessibility need where “functioning properly” means “being able to adhere to the tenets of their own religious beliefs.” So the friction responsible for change only comes up where you have a “lobby” of people of another religion, where that other religion has a conflicting requirement.
  - dfee 6y ago
    The situation where an individual or group of individuals need to petition another group of individuals, to change the status quo so the first group can function - is broken. Just a reminder that utilitarianism wrongs the minority group by definition, and is barbaric.

bpodgursky 6y ago

It's a good ruling, but framing it as good news masks the fact that the law is only necessary because intolerance and religious coercion is growing at the social and local level. It was passed in direct response to a videotaped incident.

jamesrcole 6y ago
"Good news" doesn't have to mean "the overall trends are good". Something good can happen among a trend of bad things, and acknowledging the good thing doesn't mean denying the bad things.

FriedrichN 6y ago

This is good news. Indonesia has been on a road to become quite intolerant of other religions over the past years with some very tragic outcomes like lynchings. I have little hope that this is a sign of that process slowing down or halting or even reversing, but a win is a win I guess.

gogopuppygogo 6y ago
They just whipped two gay men in the streets after a burglar broke into their home and caught them in bed together. A win is a win but this isn’t a huge milestone IMHO.
- lainga 6y ago
  Are you and GP thinking of all Indonesia or just Aceh?
  - FriedrichN 6y ago
    Aceh is especially bad, but it's happening outside of Aceh as well. There's mob violence against Christians and non-Sunni muslims, they imprisoned a Christian governor of Jakarta over "blasphemy", the state pretty much does not hire non-muslims anymore.
    - zakki 6y ago
      You should update/add your information source. There has been many non moslems, including Christian, become minister or governor or head of city/town all over Indonesia. Since its independence until now. In the beginning of current presidential period (2019-2024) there were 5 ministers as a Christian. However last year 1 is replaced due to unpopular take on COVID-19 handling and another 1 is sacked due to corruption on social programs during Jakarta’s lockdown last year. Even the governor you talked about is now becoming a commissioner for a state owned oil company. Imagine. someone out of jail, a Christian but hold a prestigious position in a state owned oil company.

jedimind 6y ago

The framing is odd though describing it as "forced" instead of simply the school's dress code. Especially when comparing it to a case in Britain a few weeks ago where a girl was threatened [1] with legal action because her skirt was 'too long'. Or how france forces girls to remove their hijabs [2]. One can always find rhetoric to justify one's decision, what I find odd tho is how a group of people will use words like "forced" in one case but will bend over backwards to justify the same forced rulings with more euphemistic language when it's in favor of their own worldview. You'll hear "it's just the law" kind of excuses, while not realizing that their own arguments could easily be used to justify the opposing case as well. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/jan/12/school-threatens-legal-action-muslim-girl-siham-hamud-skirt-too-long https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/jan/12/school-thr... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_scarf_controversy_in_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_scarf_controversy_in_F...

underseacables 6y ago
I don’t think you’re putting enough thought into what it means to be forced to do something. Girls in France are forced by their elders to wear the hijab. People around the planet are forced to do things according to a religious code that violently oppresses free will and freedom of expression. France has done the right thing, it has allowed girls to choose, unfortunately this has led to their parents and others who make choices for them to choose instead to force them to adhere to a strict religious code and keep them out of School, and the public. Anything that forces you to adhere to a code by means of force means a lack of free will. Now, you have free will to violate that code, but the consequences of a young woman choosing not to wear the hijab could be life-threatening. That is not free will. That is inhumane terrorism
- jedimind 6y ago
  > Girls in France are forced by their elders to wear the hijab. That's a vile and bigoted generalization. While that can be sometimes the case, it certainly isn't mostly so. A huge number of girls who are forced to remove their hijab feel oppressed and alienated. > France has done the right thing, it has allowed girls to choose No, this is nonfactual. France forces girl to remove their hijabs that's a fact. Your rhetoric is exactly what I was referring to, not only nonfactual but grossly misleading and outright deceptive.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

GordonS 6y ago

I remember the first time I went to Indonesia, back around 2005 or so, a work trip to the small island of Batam, a ferry ride from Singapore. When Indonesian colleagues there met me for the first time, they would almost always ask what religion I practiced, in the same sort of casual way as people in the Western world might ask where you lived. I thought it was a bit weird! Anyway, I'd always say "no religion", since I don't practice or believe in any gods, afterlife etc - but this was totally incomprehensible! Heads would tilt, and I'd get baffled looks like I was mad - "uh... no, but what god you you follow?". No matter how many times or ways I said it, they just didn't seem to believe me. Someone later explained that in Indonesia you legally had to tell the government what religion you followed, and "none" was not an option.

eunos 6y ago
>Someone later explained that in Indonesia you legally had to tell the government what religion you followed, and "none" was not an option. That is correct, furthermore, the government only acknowledges 6 religions, although I heard that they started acknowledging some folks religion recently.
Kye 6y ago
It's an interesting contrast to here in the US where you're assumed Christian, and certain sects actively try to force everyone (including other Christians) to live by their specific beliefs. I'd take confusion at not following any god over anger at not following a specific version of one.
- Retric 6y ago
  That’s really not been my experience. I don’t think I have had a religious conversation or even a question outside my immediate family in the last decade. The US is a huge country and you will experience vastly different things in different areas.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    I didn’t experience anything like the grandparent post even in places with higher proportions of religious people in the US. I even attended catholic and Lutheran schools as a kid, and no one cared about my religion (or lack of).

S53Vflnr4n 6y ago

Meanwhile Quebec banned religious attire for government servants which disproportionately affects Muslim women.

jedimind 6y ago
Wait for the mental gymnastics to justify that oppression with the loftiest of rhetoric.

knolax 6y ago

This has absolutely nothing to do with hacking and Indonesian school uniform regulations hardly count as "intellectually gratifying". Even if I wanted to learn more about school uniforms in a country I've never been to, whose language and culture I know nothing about, why the hell would I read about it coming from the state media of a another country I've never been to, whose journalists also know nothing about the language, culture, and political situation there?

itisit 6y ago
Relax. It’s good news. Women deserve way more respect than they get. This is a welcome change in just one pocket of the world.
- aptidude187 6y ago
  Exactly, now we need schools in Britain to respect women more, instead of persecuting them for wearing skirts that are 'too long'. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/jan/12/school-threatens-legal-action-muslim-girl-siham-hamud-skirt-too-long https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/jan/12/school-thr...
- knolax 6y ago
  It's not "news" at all. Have you ever been to Indonesia? Do you speak Indonesian? Have you even interacted with any Indonesians? Have ever read a book in Indonesian? Neither you or I have any contextual information to qualify this as good or bad news. We sure as hell shouldn't trust the BBC of all people to give us that contextual information either. The only reason people on HN care is because it's framed as a part of some weird culture/religious war. This constant projection of values on people you know nothing about is a waste time at best.
  - itisit 6y ago
    Culture doesn’t enjoy a special force field against criticism and scrutiny. And humanity transcends geography. Women the world over are entitled to respect and truly equal rights, not mere lip service. FWIW: https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2019/country-chapters/indonesia# https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2019/country-chapters/indon...

aerodog 6y ago

Are we allowed to force kids to a curriculum? If you say "yes", then what is wrong with forcing kids to a dress code? Why is force ok in one sense and not in another?

elisaado 6y ago
Why is it ok to force your kid to eat breakfast in the morning but not ok to force them to do <insert horrible thing>.
- aptidude187 6y ago
  Why is it ok to force kids to remove their hijabs but not ok to force them to do <insert horrible thing>. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_scarf_controversy_in_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_scarf_controversy_in_F...
- aerodog 6y ago
  you've presumed that forcing kids to a dress code is horrible. it isn't horrible. it's just that you (seem to not) value modesty in dress, which they do.
neurostimulant 6y ago
The problem is this was done is a public school, funded by taxpayer money. Although most of its population are muslim, Indonesia is not an islamic country (except Aceh, which is a special region with its own laws and autonomous government), so the public schools must accommodate every religion recognized by the country (there are 6 of them). If it's happening in a private school (e.g. islamic boarding schools or catholic schools), no one would bat an eye.

alsetmusic 6y ago

I'd like to recommend this book: The Jakarta Method[0]. Essentially, the US aided in the dismantling of a free democratic society in favor of a coup and a military dictatorship. Examples of the same being done in other countries are also provided. This was in service of obtaining natural resources. Disclaimer: It's politics are very left of center. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Jakarta-Method-Washingtons-Anticommunist-Crusade/dp/1541742400/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1PLL9SMILHCXZ&dchild=1&keywords=jakarta+method&qid=1612655186&sprefix=jakarta+%2Caps%2C211&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/Jakarta-Method-Washingtons-Anticommun...