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Good for him, standing up for his employees who clearly must be very alarmed. B8ta has stores around the globe, and Norby told SFGATE last month that the crime

Good for him, standing up for his employees who clearly must be very alarmed. B8ta has stores around the globe, and Norby told SFGATE last month that the crime in San Francisco is unlike anything the company experiences elsewhere. “This actually doesn’t happen anywhere else in the country,” he said. “We have 17 other stores, including three internationally. This just doesn’t happen anywhere else. It’s only here.” Why do the stores in SF attract violent crime compared to, say, a store in another West Coast city? Is there a gang that specializes in this sort of crime in the Bay Area, or is the level of all kinds of violent street crime off the charts? Or something else?

lol_jono 6y ago
lack of response by police and indifference of city residents towards store owners
- uoaei 6y ago
  Lack of response by police is expected, warranted, and even desired if the reason for this lack is that they are neglecting property crimes to prevent violent crimes elsewhere.
  - ndiscussion 6y ago
    In my experience, police are more likely to focus on corporate property crimes than violent crime. It seems to be a sick game of incentives gone wrong... the police department just needs to grow, so it needs more money. So it protects the corporate taxpayer over everyday victims.
    - scarmig 6y ago
      But this very case is an example of a corporate taxpayer getting screwed over by municipal indifference (to the point where they were hiring private security, but even that was not enough).
      - ndiscussion 6y ago
        You're right, it does seem like a strong counterexample. But I'm not sure how cops would fix this one directly either - they surely can't station an officer at the store all the time. Part of my point is that they spend so much time on things like traffic tickets and civil forfeiture, little time is left for actually prosecuting these criminals. https://priceonomics.com/how-police-officers-seize-cash-from-innocent/ https://priceonomics.com/how-police-officers-seize-cash-from... It's a big cultural change that could take months or years to see the difference in daily shoplifting amounts.
  - thrill 6y ago
    So armed robbery doesn't qualify as a violent crime in SF now?
  - peytn 6y ago
    I believe the crimes in question are muggings and an armed robbery in which a gun was pointed at an employee. It is a stretch to call those strictly property crimes.
- proc0 6y ago
  It got defunded while the state simultaneously reduced the consequences of a large number of smaller crimes and "quality of life" crimes.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
hindsightbias 6y ago
SF leads in all areas of innovation, including crime. In the Covid era, tourists are not present in the quantities required to sustain various career populations, including criminals. Guns aren’t really necessary in SF, so there may be some gang initiation threshold.
- proc0 6y ago
  > SF leads in all areas of innovation, including crime. Not anymore they won't. And you think criminals from outside the city/state don't know that people have no guns there? That's attractive to anyone trying to break the law.
  - gumby 6y ago
    Do people really travel any kind of distance to commit crimes? I thought that most crimes were committed in one's own neighborhood, then nearby ones.
    - liaukovv 6y ago
      That would be a very bad tactic In fact touring crime seems like a better approach, you commit a bunch of crimes in a city and move on, never to be seen there again
      - gumby 6y ago
        That's what I had assumed too, but there are several factors that dominate, statistically: When you do a crime close to home you blend in, you are more likely to know about the opportunities, and you can more quickly/easily escape home. Crimes of passion and opportunity are by definition done where you happen to be, which is likely to be where you typically are anyway. Many "crimes" are really defined to control populations, so the people committing them aren't really criminals and of course such "crimes" are enforced where the target population lives. Of course crimes are also committed by people who don't live nearby, but they seem to be a small minority of crimes, though a large majority of book/movie crimes (otherwise...how boring those stories would be)
tjalfi 6y ago
Proposition 47[0] in 2014 substantially reduced the penalties for shoplifting, grand theft, forgery, fraud, and other crimes. Stealing <$950 is a misdemeanor regardless of how often someone does it. It would be surprising if this didn't lead to a substantial increase in the crime rate. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_California_Proposition_47 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_California_Proposition_47
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > It would be surprising if this didn't lead to a substantial increase in the crime rate. Probably doesn't make a big difference to San Francisco vs other major West Coast cities, since most of the major West Coast cities are also in California.
  - ghufran_syed 6y ago
    that makes sense - I suspect it’s this in addition to local prosecutors failing to prosecute. There was an article last year about how the thieves know to stay in san francisco county and not cross into san mateo county, because the chances of being arrested and prosecuted is much higher in san mateo county
    - mc32 6y ago
      Right. Daly City is next door and crime gets prosecuted there therefore fewer of these types of crimes.
- stonesweep 6y ago
  I personally think it leads to this theory which my life experience tends to agree with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory
  - uoaei 6y ago
    Broken windows policing doesn't directly address crime rates, it artificially inflates the levels of perceived crime in order to boost police reputation through reported statistics. Real crime rates have been falling ever since they started measuring it, and there is no demonstrable correlation with increased police presence or strength/brutality of their weapons.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> Why do the stores in SF attract violent crime compared to, say, a store in another West Coast city? Population density and economic inequality are probably the big factors.
- fortran77 6y ago
  Manhattan is much more dense, and even in the 70s and early 80s, when I was there, it wasn't as bad as San Francisco. I live 40 miles south of SF and I refuse to go there.
  - naebother 6y ago
    > I live 40 miles south of SF and I refuse to go there. Then how do you know it's worse than Manhattan in the 70s/80s?
greatjack613 6y ago
Liberalism.
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into ideological flamewar. We want curious conversation here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
jjj123 6y ago
Could it be the extreme wealth and extreme poverty that the Bay Area has? We have California’s highest levels of income inequality, not sure how we compare with the rest of the us [1]. 1: https://www.kqed.org/news/11799308/bay-area-has-highest-income-inequality-in-california https://www.kqed.org/news/11799308/bay-area-has-highest-inco...
- fortran77 6y ago
  What are you saying? These people are stealing and pointing guns at people only because they feel it's "unfair" that other people have more money than they do?
  - ALittleLight 6y ago
    I think that's part of it. Imagine doing demanding or demeaning labor all day and making a tenth of what the guy spending 7-8 hours a day typing on a computer and playing Ping Pong makes. That would certainly seem unfair to me. Can't afford nice stuff, but you could take it... On top of that, SF refuses to punish crimes like theft, so...
    - ilaksh 6y ago
      I doubt that the people doing the robbery do demeaning or dema ding labor all day. They are probably career criminals or drug addicts or both. It seems that those groups flourish in such neighborhoods in SF.
      - naebother 6y ago
        And how does one become a career criminal or a drug addict? Not saying it's the only cause, but poverty and societal dysfunction definitely play a major role.
        ilaksh 6y ago
        That's true. I totally agree. I was just thinking that most of the hard-working poor people should not get lumped in with the criminals. But I think it's important to point out the strong link between crime and poverty. And personally I think that the best ways to address crime start with addressing structural inequality. I also personally think we should have a lot more mental institutions rather than relying on prisons or just letting everyone with problems fend for themselves. As long as they don't start lobotomizing people again or something.
fortran77 6y ago
> Why do the stores in SF attract violent crime compared to, say, a store in another West Coast city? Because the people of San Francisco allow it.
snapetom 6y ago
Guarantee you if the Seattle store was in Downtown, you would see the same thing. The physical environment is right - huge population of drug addicts and homeless and less populated due to COVID. The political climate is right - the Attorney General barely prosecutes violent assaults, and flat out doesn't prosecute property crimes. The voters are fine with this. The B8ta store here is in an upscale mall in the University District. If violent crime starts affecting these more affluent areas, then maybe voters will care.
- paxys 6y ago
  There is no real "upscale" shopping area in San Francisco. Hayes Valley, where this store is located, is actually considered quite fancy. Union Square, the tourist/shopping hotspot, is in an even worse condition.
- Proven 6y ago
  > The voters are fine with this. Not all voters, but those who vote for the Dems.
scelerat 6y ago
> Why do the stores in SF attract violent crime compared to, say, a store in another West Coast city? Vast wealth right next to abject poverty and hopelessness. Like a spark that, with sufficient potential, jumps a gap.
- kevrc 6y ago
  I don’t think this is the full explanation (or even the biggest factor). I have lived in foreign cities with FAR more income inequality than sf, and I never saw the blatant crime I see in sf. It’s to the point where seeing live shoplifting or robbery isn’t even a surprising or notable occurrence for most people. There is simply no will to enforce the law.
- conanbatt 6y ago
  What is crazy is that the vast wealth doesn't defend it's own skin here. Some day some tech figure will get stabbed for an empty wallet and people will be shocked.
diogenescynic 6y ago
Because criminals know they won’t be prosecuted or arrested or convicted in SF. This emboldens crime.

lol_jono 6y ago

lack of response by police and indifference of city residents towards store owners

uoaei 6y ago
Lack of response by police is expected, warranted, and even desired if the reason for this lack is that they are neglecting property crimes to prevent violent crimes elsewhere.
- ndiscussion 6y ago
  In my experience, police are more likely to focus on corporate property crimes than violent crime. It seems to be a sick game of incentives gone wrong... the police department just needs to grow, so it needs more money. So it protects the corporate taxpayer over everyday victims.
  - scarmig 6y ago
    But this very case is an example of a corporate taxpayer getting screwed over by municipal indifference (to the point where they were hiring private security, but even that was not enough).
    - ndiscussion 6y ago
      You're right, it does seem like a strong counterexample. But I'm not sure how cops would fix this one directly either - they surely can't station an officer at the store all the time. Part of my point is that they spend so much time on things like traffic tickets and civil forfeiture, little time is left for actually prosecuting these criminals. https://priceonomics.com/how-police-officers-seize-cash-from-innocent/ https://priceonomics.com/how-police-officers-seize-cash-from... It's a big cultural change that could take months or years to see the difference in daily shoplifting amounts.
- thrill 6y ago
  So armed robbery doesn't qualify as a violent crime in SF now?
- peytn 6y ago
  I believe the crimes in question are muggings and an armed robbery in which a gun was pointed at an employee. It is a stretch to call those strictly property crimes.
proc0 6y ago
It got defunded while the state simultaneously reduced the consequences of a large number of smaller crimes and "quality of life" crimes.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

hindsightbias 6y ago

SF leads in all areas of innovation, including crime. In the Covid era, tourists are not present in the quantities required to sustain various career populations, including criminals. Guns aren’t really necessary in SF, so there may be some gang initiation threshold.

proc0 6y ago
> SF leads in all areas of innovation, including crime. Not anymore they won't. And you think criminals from outside the city/state don't know that people have no guns there? That's attractive to anyone trying to break the law.
- gumby 6y ago
  Do people really travel any kind of distance to commit crimes? I thought that most crimes were committed in one's own neighborhood, then nearby ones.
  - liaukovv 6y ago
    That would be a very bad tactic In fact touring crime seems like a better approach, you commit a bunch of crimes in a city and move on, never to be seen there again
    - gumby 6y ago
      That's what I had assumed too, but there are several factors that dominate, statistically: When you do a crime close to home you blend in, you are more likely to know about the opportunities, and you can more quickly/easily escape home. Crimes of passion and opportunity are by definition done where you happen to be, which is likely to be where you typically are anyway. Many "crimes" are really defined to control populations, so the people committing them aren't really criminals and of course such "crimes" are enforced where the target population lives. Of course crimes are also committed by people who don't live nearby, but they seem to be a small minority of crimes, though a large majority of book/movie crimes (otherwise...how boring those stories would be)

tjalfi 6y ago

Proposition 47[0] in 2014 substantially reduced the penalties for shoplifting, grand theft, forgery, fraud, and other crimes. Stealing <$950 is a misdemeanor regardless of how often someone does it. It would be surprising if this didn't lead to a substantial increase in the crime rate. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_California_Proposition_47 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_California_Proposition_47

dragonwriter 6y ago
> It would be surprising if this didn't lead to a substantial increase in the crime rate. Probably doesn't make a big difference to San Francisco vs other major West Coast cities, since most of the major West Coast cities are also in California.
- ghufran_syed 6y ago
  that makes sense - I suspect it’s this in addition to local prosecutors failing to prosecute. There was an article last year about how the thieves know to stay in san francisco county and not cross into san mateo county, because the chances of being arrested and prosecuted is much higher in san mateo county
  - mc32 6y ago
    Right. Daly City is next door and crime gets prosecuted there therefore fewer of these types of crimes.
stonesweep 6y ago
I personally think it leads to this theory which my life experience tends to agree with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory
- uoaei 6y ago
  Broken windows policing doesn't directly address crime rates, it artificially inflates the levels of perceived crime in order to boost police reputation through reported statistics. Real crime rates have been falling ever since they started measuring it, and there is no demonstrable correlation with increased police presence or strength/brutality of their weapons.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> Why do the stores in SF attract violent crime compared to, say, a store in another West Coast city? Population density and economic inequality are probably the big factors.

fortran77 6y ago
Manhattan is much more dense, and even in the 70s and early 80s, when I was there, it wasn't as bad as San Francisco. I live 40 miles south of SF and I refuse to go there.
- naebother 6y ago
  > I live 40 miles south of SF and I refuse to go there. Then how do you know it's worse than Manhattan in the 70s/80s?

greatjack613 6y ago

Liberalism.

dang 6y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into ideological flamewar. We want curious conversation here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

jjj123 6y ago

Could it be the extreme wealth and extreme poverty that the Bay Area has? We have California’s highest levels of income inequality, not sure how we compare with the rest of the us [1]. 1: https://www.kqed.org/news/11799308/bay-area-has-highest-income-inequality-in-california https://www.kqed.org/news/11799308/bay-area-has-highest-inco...

fortran77 6y ago
What are you saying? These people are stealing and pointing guns at people only because they feel it's "unfair" that other people have more money than they do?
- ALittleLight 6y ago
  I think that's part of it. Imagine doing demanding or demeaning labor all day and making a tenth of what the guy spending 7-8 hours a day typing on a computer and playing Ping Pong makes. That would certainly seem unfair to me. Can't afford nice stuff, but you could take it... On top of that, SF refuses to punish crimes like theft, so...
  - ilaksh 6y ago
    I doubt that the people doing the robbery do demeaning or dema ding labor all day. They are probably career criminals or drug addicts or both. It seems that those groups flourish in such neighborhoods in SF.
    - naebother 6y ago
      And how does one become a career criminal or a drug addict? Not saying it's the only cause, but poverty and societal dysfunction definitely play a major role.
      - ilaksh 6y ago
        That's true. I totally agree. I was just thinking that most of the hard-working poor people should not get lumped in with the criminals. But I think it's important to point out the strong link between crime and poverty. And personally I think that the best ways to address crime start with addressing structural inequality. I also personally think we should have a lot more mental institutions rather than relying on prisons or just letting everyone with problems fend for themselves. As long as they don't start lobotomizing people again or something.

fortran77 6y ago

> Why do the stores in SF attract violent crime compared to, say, a store in another West Coast city? Because the people of San Francisco allow it.

snapetom 6y ago

Guarantee you if the Seattle store was in Downtown, you would see the same thing. The physical environment is right - huge population of drug addicts and homeless and less populated due to COVID. The political climate is right - the Attorney General barely prosecutes violent assaults, and flat out doesn't prosecute property crimes. The voters are fine with this. The B8ta store here is in an upscale mall in the University District. If violent crime starts affecting these more affluent areas, then maybe voters will care.

paxys 6y ago
There is no real "upscale" shopping area in San Francisco. Hayes Valley, where this store is located, is actually considered quite fancy. Union Square, the tourist/shopping hotspot, is in an even worse condition.
Proven 6y ago
> The voters are fine with this. Not all voters, but those who vote for the Dems.

scelerat 6y ago

> Why do the stores in SF attract violent crime compared to, say, a store in another West Coast city? Vast wealth right next to abject poverty and hopelessness. Like a spark that, with sufficient potential, jumps a gap.

kevrc 6y ago
I don’t think this is the full explanation (or even the biggest factor). I have lived in foreign cities with FAR more income inequality than sf, and I never saw the blatant crime I see in sf. It’s to the point where seeing live shoplifting or robbery isn’t even a surprising or notable occurrence for most people. There is simply no will to enforce the law.
conanbatt 6y ago
What is crazy is that the vast wealth doesn't defend it's own skin here. Some day some tech figure will get stabbed for an empty wallet and people will be shocked.

diogenescynic 6y ago

Because criminals know they won’t be prosecuted or arrested or convicted in SF. This emboldens crime.