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B8ta closing another San Francisco store after armed robbery
- ilamont 6y agoGood for him, standing up for his employees who clearly must be very alarmed. B8ta has stores around the globe, and Norby told SFGATE last month that the crime in San Francisco is unlike anything the company experiences elsewhere. “This actually doesn’t happen anywhere else in the country,” he said. “We have 17 other stores, including three internationally. This just doesn’t happen anywhere else. It’s only here.” Why do the stores in SF attract violent crime compared to, say, a store in another West Coast city? Is there a gang that specializes in this sort of crime in the Bay Area, or is the level of all kinds of violent street crime off the charts? Or something else?
- lol_jono 6y agolack of response by police and indifference of city residents towards store owners
- uoaei 6y agoLack of response by police is expected, warranted, and even desired if the reason for this lack is that they are neglecting property crimes to prevent violent crimes elsewhere.
- ndiscussion 6y agoIn my experience, police are more likely to focus on corporate property crimes than violent crime. It seems to be a sick game of incentives gone wrong... the police department just needs to grow, so it needs more money. So it protects the corporate taxpayer over everyday victims.
- scarmig 6y agoBut this very case is an example of a corporate taxpayer getting screwed over by municipal indifference (to the point where they were hiring private security, but even that was not enough).
- ndiscussion 6y agoYou're right, it does seem like a strong counterexample. But I'm not sure how cops would fix this one directly either - they surely can't station an officer at the store all the time. Part of my point is that they spend so much time on things like traffic tickets and civil forfeiture, little time is left for actually prosecuting these criminals. https://priceonomics.com/how-police-officers-seize-cash-from-innocent/ https://priceonomics.com/how-police-officers-seize-cash-from... It's a big cultural change that could take months or years to see the difference in daily shoplifting amounts.
- thrill 6y agoSo armed robbery doesn't qualify as a violent crime in SF now?
- peytn 6y agoI believe the crimes in question are muggings and an armed robbery in which a gun was pointed at an employee. It is a stretch to call those strictly property crimes.
- proc0 6y agoIt got defunded while the state simultaneously reduced the consequences of a large number of smaller crimes and "quality of life" crimes.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- hindsightbias 6y agoSF leads in all areas of innovation, including crime. In the Covid era, tourists are not present in the quantities required to sustain various career populations, including criminals. Guns aren’t really necessary in SF, so there may be some gang initiation threshold.
- proc0 6y ago> SF leads in all areas of innovation, including crime. Not anymore they won't. And you think criminals from outside the city/state don't know that people have no guns there? That's attractive to anyone trying to break the law.
- gumby 6y agoDo people really travel any kind of distance to commit crimes? I thought that most crimes were committed in one's own neighborhood, then nearby ones.
- liaukovv 6y agoThat would be a very bad tactic In fact touring crime seems like a better approach, you commit a bunch of crimes in a city and move on, never to be seen there again
- gumby 6y agoThat's what I had assumed too, but there are several factors that dominate, statistically: When you do a crime close to home you blend in, you are more likely to know about the opportunities, and you can more quickly/easily escape home. Crimes of passion and opportunity are by definition done where you happen to be, which is likely to be where you typically are anyway. Many "crimes" are really defined to control populations, so the people committing them aren't really criminals and of course such "crimes" are enforced where the target population lives. Of course crimes are also committed by people who don't live nearby, but they seem to be a small minority of crimes, though a large majority of book/movie crimes (otherwise...how boring those stories would be)
- tjalfi 6y agoProposition 47[0] in 2014 substantially reduced the penalties for shoplifting, grand theft, forgery, fraud, and other crimes. Stealing <$950 is a misdemeanor regardless of how often someone does it. It would be surprising if this didn't lead to a substantial increase in the crime rate. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_California_Proposition_47 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_California_Proposition_47
- dragonwriter 6y ago> It would be surprising if this didn't lead to a substantial increase in the crime rate. Probably doesn't make a big difference to San Francisco vs other major West Coast cities, since most of the major West Coast cities are also in California.
- ghufran_syed 6y agothat makes sense - I suspect it’s this in addition to local prosecutors failing to prosecute. There was an article last year about how the thieves know to stay in san francisco county and not cross into san mateo county, because the chances of being arrested and prosecuted is much higher in san mateo county
- mc32 6y agoRight. Daly City is next door and crime gets prosecuted there therefore fewer of these types of crimes.
- stonesweep 6y agoI personally think it leads to this theory which my life experience tends to agree with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory
- uoaei 6y agoBroken windows policing doesn't directly address crime rates, it artificially inflates the levels of perceived crime in order to boost police reputation through reported statistics. Real crime rates have been falling ever since they started measuring it, and there is no demonstrable correlation with increased police presence or strength/brutality of their weapons.
- dragonwriter 6y ago> Why do the stores in SF attract violent crime compared to, say, a store in another West Coast city? Population density and economic inequality are probably the big factors.
- fortran77 6y agoManhattan is much more dense, and even in the 70s and early 80s, when I was there, it wasn't as bad as San Francisco. I live 40 miles south of SF and I refuse to go there.
- naebother 6y ago> I live 40 miles south of SF and I refuse to go there. Then how do you know it's worse than Manhattan in the 70s/80s?
- greatjack613 6y agoLiberalism.
- dang 6y agoPlease don't take HN threads further into ideological flamewar. We want curious conversation here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- jjj123 6y agoCould it be the extreme wealth and extreme poverty that the Bay Area has? We have California’s highest levels of income inequality, not sure how we compare with the rest of the us [1]. 1: https://www.kqed.org/news/11799308/bay-area-has-highest-income-inequality-in-california https://www.kqed.org/news/11799308/bay-area-has-highest-inco...
- fortran77 6y agoWhat are you saying? These people are stealing and pointing guns at people only because they feel it's "unfair" that other people have more money than they do?
- ALittleLight 6y agoI think that's part of it. Imagine doing demanding or demeaning labor all day and making a tenth of what the guy spending 7-8 hours a day typing on a computer and playing Ping Pong makes. That would certainly seem unfair to me. Can't afford nice stuff, but you could take it... On top of that, SF refuses to punish crimes like theft, so...
- ilaksh 6y agoI doubt that the people doing the robbery do demeaning or dema ding labor all day. They are probably career criminals or drug addicts or both. It seems that those groups flourish in such neighborhoods in SF.
- naebother 6y agoAnd how does one become a career criminal or a drug addict? Not saying it's the only cause, but poverty and societal dysfunction definitely play a major role.
- ilaksh 6y agoThat's true. I totally agree. I was just thinking that most of the hard-working poor people should not get lumped in with the criminals. But I think it's important to point out the strong link between crime and poverty. And personally I think that the best ways to address crime start with addressing structural inequality. I also personally think we should have a lot more mental institutions rather than relying on prisons or just letting everyone with problems fend for themselves. As long as they don't start lobotomizing people again or something.
- fortran77 6y ago> Why do the stores in SF attract violent crime compared to, say, a store in another West Coast city? Because the people of San Francisco allow it.
- snapetom 6y agoGuarantee you if the Seattle store was in Downtown, you would see the same thing. The physical environment is right - huge population of drug addicts and homeless and less populated due to COVID. The political climate is right - the Attorney General barely prosecutes violent assaults, and flat out doesn't prosecute property crimes. The voters are fine with this. The B8ta store here is in an upscale mall in the University District. If violent crime starts affecting these more affluent areas, then maybe voters will care.
- paxys 6y agoThere is no real "upscale" shopping area in San Francisco. Hayes Valley, where this store is located, is actually considered quite fancy. Union Square, the tourist/shopping hotspot, is in an even worse condition.
- Proven 6y ago> The voters are fine with this. Not all voters, but those who vote for the Dems.
- scelerat 6y ago> Why do the stores in SF attract violent crime compared to, say, a store in another West Coast city? Vast wealth right next to abject poverty and hopelessness. Like a spark that, with sufficient potential, jumps a gap.
- kevrc 6y agoI don’t think this is the full explanation (or even the biggest factor). I have lived in foreign cities with FAR more income inequality than sf, and I never saw the blatant crime I see in sf. It’s to the point where seeing live shoplifting or robbery isn’t even a surprising or notable occurrence for most people. There is simply no will to enforce the law.
- conanbatt 6y agoWhat is crazy is that the vast wealth doesn't defend it's own skin here. Some day some tech figure will get stabbed for an empty wallet and people will be shocked.
- diogenescynic 6y agoBecause criminals know they won’t be prosecuted or arrested or convicted in SF. This emboldens crime.
- jacquesc 6y agoI wonder if the Union square Apple store has this issue, or if PR keeps it hush. I'd imagine it would be really bad for business if customers found out, and they print money at that location
- wombat-man 6y agoI think apple products can be locked remotely if they are known to be stolen.
- aphextron 6y ago>I think apple products can be locked remotely if they are known to be stolen. Doesn't really matter. They can still be flipped for a few hundred bucks for the components.
- canucker2016 6y agoYes, Apple can remotely disable phones stolen from Apple stores. see https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/06/02/apples-software-tracks-iphones-stolen-during-looti.aspx https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/06/02/apples-software-tr... and https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8380857/Apple-Store-looters-learn-wont-able-use-pawn-demo-items-blocking-software.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8380857/Apple-Store... For recent iPhones (11+), batteries and screens are tied to the original iPhone. You can't swap out a battery/screen from a spare iPhone 11 to a non-functioning iPhone 11 and resurrect the dead iPhone. see https://www.ifixit.com/News/32343/apple-is-locking-batteries-to-iphones-now https://www.ifixit.com/News/32343/apple-is-locking-batteries... and https://www.ifixit.com/News/33147/apple-is-discouraging-screen-repair-with-an-iphone-11-genuine-warning https://www.ifixit.com/News/33147/apple-is-discouraging-scre.... For iPhone 12, Apple expanded the locked-to-device components to the camera module. see https://www.ifixit.com/News/45921/is-this-the-end-of-the-repairable-iphone https://www.ifixit.com/News/45921/is-this-the-end-of-the-rep... The iPhone 12 behaviour is sneaky - it looks like the transplanted component works, but it slowly malfunctions.
- jdavis703 6y ago
- tyingq 6y agoI'm not sure how you solve this. They stock products that are smallish, and easily convertible to cash, so robberies are going to happen. The Devialet speaker in the article is a good example. Retails for over $3k, and weighs 12kg.
- ndiscussion 6y agoIt's probably impossible for the store to solve it, hence the closing. This problem is really up to the city to solve, and it doesn't seem the city is interested. Gated communities and all that.
- exolymph 6y agoSeems like you solve this by only having stores in lower-crime areas.
- whoooooo123 6y agoSeems like that's exactly the solution they're going for, since they're closing the store that's in a high-crime area.
- SllX 6y agoWhich now apparently means: not in San Francisco.
- conanbatt 6y agoLike you do with anything else: rule of law and private property.
- tyingq 6y agoRobberies continue to happen in places with over-the-top rule of law.
- BryanBigs 6y agoTrue, but those places don't put up with the rampant public antisocial behavior on the streets San Fran seems to embrace. I've been around the world to many dangerous places for work and service, and the only place I saw someone take a dump in public on a sidewalk was in San Francisco. He was 3 feet from one of the public toilets the city had installed (this was 2001, I think they cost $0.25 to use at the time?) This isn't some new phenomenon.
- fistfucker3000 6y agoThat store is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. I hope it dies along with all the other bougie bullshit in there. Most of it barely works and is unnecessary even if it were to work perfectly.
- gumby 6y agoI don't use the word "bougie" but I have been in the one in Palo Alto a few times (the first time by choice) and honestly have never seen the point. Nothing I've seen there as looked remotely enticing.
- freewilly1040 6y agoHow is this relevant to the article? Even if you don't care about the business it's traumatizing for people involved to be robbed at gunpoint. Do you not care because you don't like the store?
- benjohnson 6y agoIf this isn't what people want then perhaps citizens in SF could reconsider who they vote for to represent them in government.
- tristanb 6y agoIn the last month in San Francisco. - Someone was shot on my doorstep at 6am. Survived. - My friend was woken up on the couch when a bullet landed at his feet. (Was fired up in the air and came down through a skylight). - My wife found a homeless person so dead they had rigor mortis - We tried to buy a house and failed when it had 37 other offers I still love this place, and its been my home for 15 years but it ain't easy.
- ilaksh 6y agoCheck out Playas de Tijuana, Mexico. Occasionally it smells bad, but not usually, and in my neighborhood we have a strong police presence. Also living a block from the beach only costs $500. And on Mondays there is a market on the street right in front of the apartment. I rarely see any homeless people. The dogs and barbed wire are usually enough to prevent most robberies as long as you don't park a really nice car on the street for long. And it only costs $500 per month for rent. Based on the descriptions in this thread, I actually think my neighborhood is safer and more pleasant than many places in San Francisco. It's making me feel better about my own situation.
- officialchicken 6y agoThere are so many of these kinds of locations in Spain, it's hard to list. For $600/mo (2 BR apt/condo), sandwiched between Playa de Las Canteras and Playa de Alcavaneras. And several orders of magnitude safer than US/MX, in terms of crimes per capita.
- cammikebrown 6y agoI'd love to move to Spain, and I'd learn Spanish, but as an American, how do I move there without getting deported?
- nextos 6y agoGetting a visa is not that hard. Spain is also really relaxed about immigration. If you are in the tech industry, many startups and big companies (e.g. Facebook, Google) have offices in Madrid and Barcelona. If you wanna do remote work, the Canary Islands might be soon offering a special visa and a low tax regime. You could also try a digital nomad lifestyle. If you return to the US every now and then, it should be fine.
- someonehere 6y agoFor context a realtor friend I know lived right in that area. It’s overrun with homeless and drug dealers. Hayes Valley used to be the place people wanted to move to because it had good food and local merchants. This was ten years ago. Now it’s just as bad as the b8ta owner makes it out to be. City politics is to blame for this because they spin up programs to help, but it doesn’t fix the systemic problem long term. Most of the people who are homeless or need help don’t want to abide by the rules for a free place to stay or get the help they need. They’d rather stay on the streets and live life how they see fit. This isn’t a political opinion either. It’s a reality of failed policies of the city.
- conanbatt 6y agoHayes Valley 15 years ago was under a highway.
- vmception 6y agoI had a guess it would be Hayes Valley. Not because there are few b8ta stores but because there is no way that will continue to be considered a nice neighborhood For months after the first lockdown, the place practically had a favela setup across $6500/mo rental units until someone tricked business owners in signing a petition to summon the police to come with clubs. The police did come and clear it out. And the Walgreens being continually emptied out despite not being on the main Market St or other typically decrepit neighborhoods was a sign that people would not ignore the place anymore Pretty much every currently “nice neighborhood” was super sketch during the time periods of SF that people seem to reminisce about
- justaj 6y agoFor anyone outside of SF / US is wondering: "b8ta is a retail-as-a-service company with a chain of 22 standalone retail stores, which serve as presentation centers for consumer electronics and home goods. Companies can pay to rent out space for their product to be displayed inside the locations, along with a tablet that each brand customizes with software." Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B8ta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B8ta
- thu2111 6y agoAnd the reason it's called that is because in American English it's pronounced "bay-ta" not "bee-ta". So "b-eight-a" sounds right.
- BryanBigs 6y agoThe good news is, taxes, regulations and rent are so low in SF that they make up for the lack of attention to inhabitants' safety...