9 ms·

Having done a fair bit of AR/VR work in medical and industrial settings, I've always thought the 'killer app' of VR is not in gaming. It's this very weekend: T

Having done a fair bit of AR/VR work in medical and industrial settings, I've always thought the 'killer app' of VR is not in gaming. It's this very weekend: The Super Bowl. Well, not the Super Bowl precisely, but in experiences like sports or other time/space limited events. Sitting ring-side for the next big match. Or at the 50-yard line at the Super Bowl. Or at the finish line of the 100-m dash. All for, I dunno, $15? And the cost for the company is just rigging a google-maps-like camera ball and streaming the data out. Especially as the quarantine grinds onwards, a better form of escapism that AR/VR provides may have a big market for time/space limited events.

xnx 6y ago
VR is very immersive but multiple telephoto camera angles provide much better views of concerts and sporting events.
tenaciousDaniel 6y ago
Yes, no idea why this isn’t already happening
- djitz 6y ago
  It is. The NBA is partnered with Oculus and games can be viewed live in 360 video
  - mlfia 6y ago
    Apple purchased NextVR last year. They had previously been screening NBA matches (and theatre/comedy) on the Quest. They were one of my favourite apps.. https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/14/21211254/apple-confirms-nextvr-acquisition-purchase-vr-virtual-reality-company https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/14/21211254/apple-confirms-n...
- hwjwill 6y ago
  The resolution on today's consumer headsets still isn't there to provide good experience (maybe https://varjo.com/ https://varjo.com/ can work but it's not for consumers). Oculus Quest also last only 2-3 hours after fully charged. Main reason at least for me is it gets quite uncomfortable after wearing it for long (~30 min) due to weight and sweat
  - shock-value 6y ago
    IMO the resolution is there so long as you have one of the latest headsets and are viewing a VR180 8K feed (my reference is the Quest 2). Live casting of an 8K feed probably is the limiting factor here (not the headset hardware).
    - meheleventyone 6y ago
      It’s 8K per eye and to meet latency expectations right now you’d need to send the whole 180/360 video with enough resolution through it’s entirety so that there’s always enough pixels within the spherical polygon the eye frustrums create. Far more than an 8K feed and in particular I don’t know of any cameras capturing at that resolution? 360 video is also quite nauseating for people as it has no positional component (e.g. moving your head forward brings the scene with it). What we really want are streaming light fields.
    - empiricus 6y ago
      VR180 6-8K video at 90hz is such a visible improvement compared with lower quality formats on Quest 2. But there is so little content available at high resolutions and high frame rates. I just hope this will improve (at least slowly) in time.
  - JonathanFly 6y ago
    >The resolution on today's consumer headsets still isn't there to provide good experience (maybe https://varjo.com/ https://varjo.com/ can work but it's not for consumers). I think the display hardware is good enough, but I've only been able to get that quality by manually copying over 8k video files and playing them on the device itself. Not sure why they can't match this quality when streaming...
enos_feedler 6y ago
100% this. Why not do full audio/video capture of the best seat in the house for every sporting event. I am very bearish on VR in general, but as a sports fan this is something I would use about 480 hours per season. Apple actually acquired NextVR that was doing this sort of thing: https://9to5mac.com/2020/05/14/apple-nextr-ar-headset/ https://9to5mac.com/2020/05/14/apple-nextr-ar-headset/
- Fricken 6y ago
  Even the best seat in the house is not the best seat when the action is at the other end of the playfield. I've seen some sporting events where they have multiple cameras set up to always get the best view of the action. They have a man who watches all the camera feeds and switches to whichever one is offering the best view of the action. It's even better than the best seat in the house.
  - bsenftner 6y ago
    Back in the 90's, during the first attempt at mainstream VR, some company surrounded the World Cup Finals with 16 cameras, and they published an application that was the World Cup Finals as a 3D soccer field with 3D players, and a virtual camera that could be placed and moved anywhere during gameplay. The company was one of the video card manufacturers of the time, promoting their large and bulky VR headset. This was around '93-94?
_coveredInBees 6y ago
Ehh. I've owned a VR headset for a long time now, and I think many people underestimate how fundamentally isolating being in VR is. Humans are social creatures and unless you live by yourself and want to escape into VR, you're a lot more likely to enjoy watching the big game with friends and family so you can shoot the shit, and share the experience. Don't get me wrong... VR is and can be a lot of fun, but I just don't see it being this next big thing that people seem to hope it will be. On the other hand, I think when someone solves AR, I suspect that may very well produce a seismic change across society with widespread adoption.
- taurath 6y ago
  VRChat w positional audio is superior to just talking on the phone or thru a video conference I’d say
  - _coveredInBees 6y ago
    I was never arguing that VRChat/social apps are worse than other remote social experiences (phone call / video conference, etc.). My point is that it is very isolating and impossible to share the experience in any meaningful way with folks around you, or just be present at all while doing something in VR. Like I can play Mario on my TV while sharing that experience with my kids or chatting with my wife about things, while still being around my family in a shared living space. VR just isn't cut out for that. I do use it for sim-racing (which is pretty much a perfect fit for VR headsets) which is anyway a situation where you need to be distraction free and kinda isolated from everyone else so it works well in those types of scenarios.
    - slimsag 6y ago
      Counterpoint: The same argument is true of phones, and that has largely not stopped people from being regularly severely distracted by them even in social settings.
    - oarsinsync 6y ago
      > My point is that it is very isolating and impossible to share the experience in any meaningful way with folks around you There are an awfully large number of people who are currently literally isolated and unable to share any experiences with anyone.
beloch 6y ago
To put it another way, the killer app had better not be games if Apple is going to succeed with a $3K headset. Apple, a proprietary Apple processor, and $3K are all things that tend to make game developers run far, far, away.
jayd16 6y ago
I don't really understand your argument. Videogames revenue is higher than movies and NA sports combined. That said, there's enough room for everything. >rigging a google-maps-like camera ball This is also not really how it works at all. Volumetric capture is a lot more complicated than 3D TV which is considered a dud.
xxs 6y ago
>experiences like sports or other time/space limited event How would streaming work with a custom point/angle of view? Can the participant walk, move head - etc. Unless all the possible cameras are streamed AND processed locally the latency would destroy the experience.
rebuilder 6y ago
It's hard to drink beer and eat snacks when you are wearing a headset and are blind to the world around you.
- xnx 6y ago
  I was surprised how good the video passthrough on the Oculus Quest is.
f6v 6y ago
Even better: you're in IMAX movies, but nobody is chewing nachos.
epanchin 6y ago
Sounds like it would avoid the risk of motion sickness too, as your movement in VR would reflect movement in real world.
jonplackett 6y ago
They've been trying to do this but they always put the 360 camera somewhere really dumb, like next to the goal (this is soccer I've tried it with) and just normal head height, so you can't actually see the game at all. I agree if they put the camera somewhere cool, like right above the pitch kind of like god-view, that would be awesome. Not sure I'd pay 3,500 for it though....
- 05 6y ago
  Yeah, they should just put the cameras on the players' helmets.. (not sure if serious).
  - jonplackett 6y ago
    Haha, maybe I would pay 3500 for that...
  - Someone 6y ago
    They could have tens or hundreds of cameras, and reconstruct what a virtual cameraman moving on the field with the action would record. I think such a virtual camera technically almost is possible. Getting a smoothly moving camera image that doesn’t get distracted by ball-like objects (e.g. a bald referee, as happened in soccer recently) and tunes zoom levels to show just enough action probably is the hardest part.
    - jonplackett 6y ago
      Intel did this for American Football but it looks like it needed some serious processing so maybe not possible LIVE yet. Would probably also need some kind of remote GPU too like Google Stadia if you’re going to get any kind of real-life picture quality. https://www.intel.co.uk/content/www/uk/en/sports/technology/true-view.html https://www.intel.co.uk/content/www/uk/en/sports/technology/...
- michaelt 6y ago
  > they always put the 360 camera somewhere really dumb, like next to the goal Human stereo vision doesn't work at long distances, because of the geometry - the exact distance depends on how good your eyesight is, but somewhere around 18 feet [1] the brain starts using other cues because the difference between what your left and right eyes see is so minuscule. This all happens unconsciously so you don't notice - but when you estimate the speed of a car 100 meters away, you actually start comparing its motion to the road markings, using your knowledge of about how big a car is, and so on. So a bird's eye view doesn't really benefit from stereo vision. I suspect they like to put in those weird close-up shots to make the people paying $$$$ for 3D notice the 3D effect and feel they've got their money's worth. [1] http://scecinfo.usc.edu/geowall/stereohow.html http://scecinfo.usc.edu/geowall/stereohow.html
headmelted 6y ago
The problem with this is that it’s not VR though. It’s 3D from a fixed point. You can’t look around unless the camera is mounted on motors to allow for that, and even then you’d need to be the only viewer otherwise who’s head does it track?
- kamarg 6y ago
  Why not do multiple cameras and broadcast each of the feeds? Then it's up to the software for each user to do head tracking.
polishdude20 6y ago
You could probably take it a step further. Use lots of cameras all around the stadium from various angles then use machine learning or whatever to recreate the game in a 3d world. Then, let people move and fly around through that world. Get up close to the players, fly anywhere you want.
drited 6y ago
Add the ability to watch the game with all your friends next to you in VR sharing the excitement just like you would if you were in the stadium sitting next to each other and that's a killer app IMO. I think the sky sports app in oculus is like that but haven't tested it
notSupplied 6y ago
I wonder if the killer feature for AR/VR is as simple and unsexy as replacing my ridiculous array of massive monitors.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

xnx 6y ago

VR is very immersive but multiple telephoto camera angles provide much better views of concerts and sporting events.

tenaciousDaniel 6y ago

Yes, no idea why this isn’t already happening

djitz 6y ago
It is. The NBA is partnered with Oculus and games can be viewed live in 360 video
- mlfia 6y ago
  Apple purchased NextVR last year. They had previously been screening NBA matches (and theatre/comedy) on the Quest. They were one of my favourite apps.. https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/14/21211254/apple-confirms-nextvr-acquisition-purchase-vr-virtual-reality-company https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/14/21211254/apple-confirms-n...
hwjwill 6y ago
The resolution on today's consumer headsets still isn't there to provide good experience (maybe https://varjo.com/ https://varjo.com/ can work but it's not for consumers). Oculus Quest also last only 2-3 hours after fully charged. Main reason at least for me is it gets quite uncomfortable after wearing it for long (~30 min) due to weight and sweat
- shock-value 6y ago
  IMO the resolution is there so long as you have one of the latest headsets and are viewing a VR180 8K feed (my reference is the Quest 2). Live casting of an 8K feed probably is the limiting factor here (not the headset hardware).
  - meheleventyone 6y ago
    It’s 8K per eye and to meet latency expectations right now you’d need to send the whole 180/360 video with enough resolution through it’s entirety so that there’s always enough pixels within the spherical polygon the eye frustrums create. Far more than an 8K feed and in particular I don’t know of any cameras capturing at that resolution? 360 video is also quite nauseating for people as it has no positional component (e.g. moving your head forward brings the scene with it). What we really want are streaming light fields.
  - empiricus 6y ago
    VR180 6-8K video at 90hz is such a visible improvement compared with lower quality formats on Quest 2. But there is so little content available at high resolutions and high frame rates. I just hope this will improve (at least slowly) in time.
- JonathanFly 6y ago
  >The resolution on today's consumer headsets still isn't there to provide good experience (maybe https://varjo.com/ https://varjo.com/ can work but it's not for consumers). I think the display hardware is good enough, but I've only been able to get that quality by manually copying over 8k video files and playing them on the device itself. Not sure why they can't match this quality when streaming...

enos_feedler 6y ago

100% this. Why not do full audio/video capture of the best seat in the house for every sporting event. I am very bearish on VR in general, but as a sports fan this is something I would use about 480 hours per season. Apple actually acquired NextVR that was doing this sort of thing: https://9to5mac.com/2020/05/14/apple-nextr-ar-headset/ https://9to5mac.com/2020/05/14/apple-nextr-ar-headset/

Fricken 6y ago
Even the best seat in the house is not the best seat when the action is at the other end of the playfield. I've seen some sporting events where they have multiple cameras set up to always get the best view of the action. They have a man who watches all the camera feeds and switches to whichever one is offering the best view of the action. It's even better than the best seat in the house.
- bsenftner 6y ago
  Back in the 90's, during the first attempt at mainstream VR, some company surrounded the World Cup Finals with 16 cameras, and they published an application that was the World Cup Finals as a 3D soccer field with 3D players, and a virtual camera that could be placed and moved anywhere during gameplay. The company was one of the video card manufacturers of the time, promoting their large and bulky VR headset. This was around '93-94?

_coveredInBees 6y ago

Ehh. I've owned a VR headset for a long time now, and I think many people underestimate how fundamentally isolating being in VR is. Humans are social creatures and unless you live by yourself and want to escape into VR, you're a lot more likely to enjoy watching the big game with friends and family so you can shoot the shit, and share the experience. Don't get me wrong... VR is and can be a lot of fun, but I just don't see it being this next big thing that people seem to hope it will be. On the other hand, I think when someone solves AR, I suspect that may very well produce a seismic change across society with widespread adoption.

taurath 6y ago
VRChat w positional audio is superior to just talking on the phone or thru a video conference I’d say
- _coveredInBees 6y ago
  I was never arguing that VRChat/social apps are worse than other remote social experiences (phone call / video conference, etc.). My point is that it is very isolating and impossible to share the experience in any meaningful way with folks around you, or just be present at all while doing something in VR. Like I can play Mario on my TV while sharing that experience with my kids or chatting with my wife about things, while still being around my family in a shared living space. VR just isn't cut out for that. I do use it for sim-racing (which is pretty much a perfect fit for VR headsets) which is anyway a situation where you need to be distraction free and kinda isolated from everyone else so it works well in those types of scenarios.
  - slimsag 6y ago
    Counterpoint: The same argument is true of phones, and that has largely not stopped people from being regularly severely distracted by them even in social settings.
  - oarsinsync 6y ago
    > My point is that it is very isolating and impossible to share the experience in any meaningful way with folks around you There are an awfully large number of people who are currently literally isolated and unable to share any experiences with anyone.

beloch 6y ago

To put it another way, the killer app had better not be games if Apple is going to succeed with a $3K headset. Apple, a proprietary Apple processor, and $3K are all things that tend to make game developers run far, far, away.

jayd16 6y ago

I don't really understand your argument. Videogames revenue is higher than movies and NA sports combined. That said, there's enough room for everything. >rigging a google-maps-like camera ball This is also not really how it works at all. Volumetric capture is a lot more complicated than 3D TV which is considered a dud.

xxs 6y ago

>experiences like sports or other time/space limited event How would streaming work with a custom point/angle of view? Can the participant walk, move head - etc. Unless all the possible cameras are streamed AND processed locally the latency would destroy the experience.

rebuilder 6y ago

It's hard to drink beer and eat snacks when you are wearing a headset and are blind to the world around you.

xnx 6y ago
I was surprised how good the video passthrough on the Oculus Quest is.

f6v 6y ago

Even better: you're in IMAX movies, but nobody is chewing nachos.

epanchin 6y ago

Sounds like it would avoid the risk of motion sickness too, as your movement in VR would reflect movement in real world.

jonplackett 6y ago

They've been trying to do this but they always put the 360 camera somewhere really dumb, like next to the goal (this is soccer I've tried it with) and just normal head height, so you can't actually see the game at all. I agree if they put the camera somewhere cool, like right above the pitch kind of like god-view, that would be awesome. Not sure I'd pay 3,500 for it though....

05 6y ago
Yeah, they should just put the cameras on the players' helmets.. (not sure if serious).
- jonplackett 6y ago
  Haha, maybe I would pay 3500 for that...
- Someone 6y ago
  They could have tens or hundreds of cameras, and reconstruct what a virtual cameraman moving on the field with the action would record. I think such a virtual camera technically almost is possible. Getting a smoothly moving camera image that doesn’t get distracted by ball-like objects (e.g. a bald referee, as happened in soccer recently) and tunes zoom levels to show just enough action probably is the hardest part.
  - jonplackett 6y ago
    Intel did this for American Football but it looks like it needed some serious processing so maybe not possible LIVE yet. Would probably also need some kind of remote GPU too like Google Stadia if you’re going to get any kind of real-life picture quality. https://www.intel.co.uk/content/www/uk/en/sports/technology/true-view.html https://www.intel.co.uk/content/www/uk/en/sports/technology/...
michaelt 6y ago
> they always put the 360 camera somewhere really dumb, like next to the goal Human stereo vision doesn't work at long distances, because of the geometry - the exact distance depends on how good your eyesight is, but somewhere around 18 feet [1] the brain starts using other cues because the difference between what your left and right eyes see is so minuscule. This all happens unconsciously so you don't notice - but when you estimate the speed of a car 100 meters away, you actually start comparing its motion to the road markings, using your knowledge of about how big a car is, and so on. So a bird's eye view doesn't really benefit from stereo vision. I suspect they like to put in those weird close-up shots to make the people paying $$$$ for 3D notice the 3D effect and feel they've got their money's worth. [1] http://scecinfo.usc.edu/geowall/stereohow.html http://scecinfo.usc.edu/geowall/stereohow.html

headmelted 6y ago

The problem with this is that it’s not VR though. It’s 3D from a fixed point. You can’t look around unless the camera is mounted on motors to allow for that, and even then you’d need to be the only viewer otherwise who’s head does it track?

kamarg 6y ago
Why not do multiple cameras and broadcast each of the feeds? Then it's up to the software for each user to do head tracking.

polishdude20 6y ago

You could probably take it a step further. Use lots of cameras all around the stadium from various angles then use machine learning or whatever to recreate the game in a 3d world. Then, let people move and fly around through that world. Get up close to the players, fly anywhere you want.

drited 6y ago

Add the ability to watch the game with all your friends next to you in VR sharing the excitement just like you would if you were in the stadium sitting next to each other and that's a killer app IMO. I think the sky sports app in oculus is like that but haven't tested it

notSupplied 6y ago

I wonder if the killer feature for AR/VR is as simple and unsexy as replacing my ridiculous array of massive monitors.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]