7 ms·

Tips are fundamentally broken. If you didn't know about tips, and someone offered you a job and said, "I'll pay you crap wages, but you can ask the customers fo

by ben509 6y ago

Tips are fundamentally broken. If you didn't know about tips, and someone offered you a job and said, "I'll pay you crap wages, but you can ask the customers for more money. Don't worry, they'll pay or their friends won't like them," you'd think it was a scam because it's such an obviously terrible deal. Tips are an awful way to incentivize good service. I'm neither qualified to judge my server's performance, and I've got very limited and potentially misleading information about what a reasonable expectation is. I've got no idea what small crises my server had to deal with, or how other customers are treating him. And because tips are everywhere now, nobody knows the going rate for most tips. Obviously tourists have no idea how much to tip. If I reduce the tip, the waiter is only finding out that I was unsatisfied after it's too late to fix anything. But tipping up front makes the exercise entirely pointless. And the moralizing of tips is stupid. Many moral arguments paint people in the service industry as paupers or victims, but a basic level of respsect has to assume they're competent professionals who chose this line of work. A tip is not an act of generosity, either, you're paying a fee for a service rendered. And that's why, as a system, the morality of tipping is entirely backwards: it rewards people who rip off their servers. The thing that really bothers me are the awful motivations behind tipping: being control freaks, conspicuous consumption and all the slimy business incentives to push their payroll onto their customers.

ARandomerDude 6y ago
You're absolutely right, given the premise that we tip to incentivize good service. In reality, we tip so businesses can advertise an $18 meal for $14.99.
- ryoshu 6y ago
  Exactly. We aren't necessarily pushing the payroll onto the customer, we're discounting the cost of a dish at the expense of the server. And to the parent's post, that's an arbitrary decision that sometimes works out and sometimes doesn't for the person making half of minimum wage.
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  And also so that customers can dangle a tip in front of an underpaid, overworked employee, only to snatch it away if they don't smile or go to church or insert some arbitrary reason here. It's both consumers and employers who keep the tipping culture and its toxicity alive. I mean the one time I was in the US having breakfast or lunch at some random place. They had at least five staff milling around for twenty-five customers, probably more (staff I mean). You don't need to have two teens frantically going around with pitchers of water, just plop one down on the table and pay the remaining employees a good wage. A good wage is not minimum wage either. Minimum wage is a "what is the least I can legally pay this employee", while as an employer your mindset should be "how much is this employee worth and how can I make them feel appreciated"
- VBprogrammer 6y ago
  The tipping culture in Spain seems to account for this acceptably well. 1-2€ left on the table for a staff member who poured you a couple of drinks seems to be generally well received. Of course, they know a table of American tourists is likely to be a gold mine so far as tips are concerned. In the UK tipping is very hit or miss. Especially now that cash payments are becoming rare. I've noticed that food delivery drivers will be half way down the street by the time I open the door these days. They obviously don't expect anything. If there is a service charge on the bill I typically don't leave anything in particular, and I'd prefer it this way.
  - madeofpalk 6y ago
    > In the UK tipping is very hit or miss. Often there's an 'optional' service charge on bills now (well, before) which we'll always begrudgingly pay. Only once have we asked them to remove it.
    - VBprogrammer 6y ago
      Same. One time we were out at a restaurant and having all had full meals a couple of us were getting some extras like milkshakes when the Waitress came over to tell us in no uncertain terms that she needed the table back.
- watt 6y ago
  This is a very good insight, however the way you say it comes across like you seem to like it or are OK with it. Sarcasm does not come across. We should point out this really is not OK and is not a desirable by anyone except the ownership class.
reader_mode 6y ago
>I'm neither qualified to judge my server's performance, and I've got very limited and potentially misleading information about what a reasonable expectation is. I've got no idea what small crises my server had to deal with, or how other customers are treating him. That's ridiculous. If you're not qualified to judge the value of service to yourself then your probably not qualified for a lot of spending decisions in your life. Reasonable expectation ? If you're a reasonable person you'll have reasonable expectation and it's really easy to notice when someone makes the experience more pleasant. And if a car mechanic returned your car smelling like shit would you not be mad because he had digestion issues ?
- BeetleB 6y ago
  > Reasonable expectation ? If you're a reasonable person you'll have reasonable expectation Tautology anyone?
  - reader_mode 6y ago
    My point exactly - what's reasonable is relative so if you consider yourself reasonable you should have reasonable expectations.
- imtringued 6y ago
  >That's ridiculous. If you're not qualified to judge the value of service to yourself then your probably not qualified for a lot of spending decisions in your life. I can trivially judge the necessity of service but unless I am an expert in the domain I cannot judge the quality of service and very often the entire point of the service is to outsource expertise. I sent my car in for an oil change. They didn't replace the clogged oil filter and it started leaking a little. I had to sent it in again. Clearly I know that I need an oil change but unless I do my own inspections (the very thing I am paying for) how am I supposed to know that something went wrong?
  - reader_mode 6y ago
    >I can trivially judge the necessity of service but unless I am an expert in the domain I cannot judge the quality of service and very often the entire point of the service is to outsource expertise. The entire point of this service is to improve your subjective experience - if you can't evaluate that then you probably need a legal guardian.
bigmattystyles 6y ago
It’s even worse, in most places, tips are pooled and split evenly from what’s left over after you as the waiter tip out the bussers, bartenders, etc.. It makes for awful office politics.
- ornornor 6y ago
  Tips even go to the manager and owner very often.
  - leetcrew 6y ago
    this may be true, but it is definitely illegal. the owner can keep a tip if directly given to them by a customer (eg, while serving a table), but they may not participate in any sort of tip pool. of course, "illegal" is very different from "doesn't happen" in the restaurant biz. the owner of the place I worked would often reach into the tip jar to pay himself back when we made mistakes.
    - ornornor 6y ago
      > definitely illegal haha, right. I've seen it done in most places I've worked when I was younger. It's also illegal to clock people out during their shift when business is slow and yet many many places do it (because it's not enough to underpay and have employee rely on tips/charity from customers).
    - 93po 6y ago
      I think virtually every restaurant or bar has fine print that any tip over a certain dollar amount goes to the owners. The excess does, that is, and the staff keeps the part of the tip that is under the threshold. It's usually somewhere between $1k-$5k.
cush 6y ago
Tell that to the career bartender taking home $70k in cash a year. It depends entirely on the business. Some are great for tips, and others suck.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  You shouldn't be downvoted. A lot of people make a lot of money off of tips. Does that translate to most? No, but this incentivizes many people to be pro-tip.
emptysongglass 6y ago
Can we talk about why service is astronomically better in the US than countries with very high worker protections and base wages like Denmark? I'm genuinely curious what you think the factors are in their difference because when I live in Denmark (as I do now) it feels like the waiter could give less of a s** whether the service is good or not whereas when I live in LA or NYC I feel like I am the golden child of their day. The mind first reaches to "it must be tips" but I am genuinely curious what you think the primary factor of this yawning gap in service is if not tips. I mean I even worked for a Danish guy who was Noma's head chef's former sous chef (he had just opened a new restaurant in NYC at the time) and the American staff he employed there was just leagues beyond anything I had ever seen in DK.
- abandonliberty 6y ago
  It's cultural. You can get amazing service in other countries with little or no tipping culture. Sure, tipping may be an incentive as well, but most people I know won't go below 10% even if the service is terrible.
  - emptysongglass 6y ago
    Which other countries with little to no tipping culture do you receive amazing service? Again, I am curious, not combative, so please take care if applying disdain to my comments.
    - tomp 6y ago
      Japan. Really awkward as well. Basically the whole staff was waving at us until we went around the corner and they couldn’t see us any more. Didn’t know what to do - ignore, acknowledge, turn back and keep eye contact while still walking forward, smile, stop, wave ... This was a high-end restaurant though.
    - drewwwwww 6y ago
      japan
    - 6y ago
silvestrov 6y ago
I think people like tipping because they like this amount of power: enough to feel a bit powerful over other people, but also not so much they have a responsibility to carry. That's why you're not allowed to tip 0% if the services rendered were worth 0%.
pelliphant 6y ago
> And because tips are everywhere now As a european, I really don't think that's true.
gwd 6y ago
> A tip is not an act of generosity, either, you're paying a fee for a service rendered. I once took a cab from my hotel in Zhengzhou (in central China) to the airport. It was during rush hour, so what would otherwise have been a 15-minute drive took over an hour. But the meter was obviously set to work only on distance travelled, and the fare seemed to me to be obscenely low for over an hour of work. I knew in China that tipping wasn't a thing, but having been raised in the US, I felt obligated to try in this situation. You should have seen the insulted look on her face. She was doing an honest job for an agreed-upon price, and didn't need any "largesse" from me.

by ben509 6y ago

ARandomerDude 6y ago

You're absolutely right, given the premise that we tip to incentivize good service. In reality, we tip so businesses can advertise an $18 meal for $14.99.

ryoshu 6y ago
Exactly. We aren't necessarily pushing the payroll onto the customer, we're discounting the cost of a dish at the expense of the server. And to the parent's post, that's an arbitrary decision that sometimes works out and sometimes doesn't for the person making half of minimum wage.
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
And also so that customers can dangle a tip in front of an underpaid, overworked employee, only to snatch it away if they don't smile or go to church or insert some arbitrary reason here. It's both consumers and employers who keep the tipping culture and its toxicity alive. I mean the one time I was in the US having breakfast or lunch at some random place. They had at least five staff milling around for twenty-five customers, probably more (staff I mean). You don't need to have two teens frantically going around with pitchers of water, just plop one down on the table and pay the remaining employees a good wage. A good wage is not minimum wage either. Minimum wage is a "what is the least I can legally pay this employee", while as an employer your mindset should be "how much is this employee worth and how can I make them feel appreciated"
VBprogrammer 6y ago
The tipping culture in Spain seems to account for this acceptably well. 1-2€ left on the table for a staff member who poured you a couple of drinks seems to be generally well received. Of course, they know a table of American tourists is likely to be a gold mine so far as tips are concerned. In the UK tipping is very hit or miss. Especially now that cash payments are becoming rare. I've noticed that food delivery drivers will be half way down the street by the time I open the door these days. They obviously don't expect anything. If there is a service charge on the bill I typically don't leave anything in particular, and I'd prefer it this way.
- madeofpalk 6y ago
  > In the UK tipping is very hit or miss. Often there's an 'optional' service charge on bills now (well, before) which we'll always begrudgingly pay. Only once have we asked them to remove it.
  - VBprogrammer 6y ago
    Same. One time we were out at a restaurant and having all had full meals a couple of us were getting some extras like milkshakes when the Waitress came over to tell us in no uncertain terms that she needed the table back.
watt 6y ago
This is a very good insight, however the way you say it comes across like you seem to like it or are OK with it. Sarcasm does not come across. We should point out this really is not OK and is not a desirable by anyone except the ownership class.

reader_mode 6y ago

>I'm neither qualified to judge my server's performance, and I've got very limited and potentially misleading information about what a reasonable expectation is. I've got no idea what small crises my server had to deal with, or how other customers are treating him. That's ridiculous. If you're not qualified to judge the value of service to yourself then your probably not qualified for a lot of spending decisions in your life. Reasonable expectation ? If you're a reasonable person you'll have reasonable expectation and it's really easy to notice when someone makes the experience more pleasant. And if a car mechanic returned your car smelling like shit would you not be mad because he had digestion issues ?

BeetleB 6y ago
> Reasonable expectation ? If you're a reasonable person you'll have reasonable expectation Tautology anyone?
- reader_mode 6y ago
  My point exactly - what's reasonable is relative so if you consider yourself reasonable you should have reasonable expectations.
imtringued 6y ago
>That's ridiculous. If you're not qualified to judge the value of service to yourself then your probably not qualified for a lot of spending decisions in your life. I can trivially judge the necessity of service but unless I am an expert in the domain I cannot judge the quality of service and very often the entire point of the service is to outsource expertise. I sent my car in for an oil change. They didn't replace the clogged oil filter and it started leaking a little. I had to sent it in again. Clearly I know that I need an oil change but unless I do my own inspections (the very thing I am paying for) how am I supposed to know that something went wrong?
- reader_mode 6y ago
  >I can trivially judge the necessity of service but unless I am an expert in the domain I cannot judge the quality of service and very often the entire point of the service is to outsource expertise. The entire point of this service is to improve your subjective experience - if you can't evaluate that then you probably need a legal guardian.

bigmattystyles 6y ago

It’s even worse, in most places, tips are pooled and split evenly from what’s left over after you as the waiter tip out the bussers, bartenders, etc.. It makes for awful office politics.

ornornor 6y ago
Tips even go to the manager and owner very often.
- leetcrew 6y ago
  this may be true, but it is definitely illegal. the owner can keep a tip if directly given to them by a customer (eg, while serving a table), but they may not participate in any sort of tip pool. of course, "illegal" is very different from "doesn't happen" in the restaurant biz. the owner of the place I worked would often reach into the tip jar to pay himself back when we made mistakes.
  - ornornor 6y ago
    > definitely illegal haha, right. I've seen it done in most places I've worked when I was younger. It's also illegal to clock people out during their shift when business is slow and yet many many places do it (because it's not enough to underpay and have employee rely on tips/charity from customers).
  - 93po 6y ago
    I think virtually every restaurant or bar has fine print that any tip over a certain dollar amount goes to the owners. The excess does, that is, and the staff keeps the part of the tip that is under the threshold. It's usually somewhere between $1k-$5k.

cush 6y ago

Tell that to the career bartender taking home $70k in cash a year. It depends entirely on the business. Some are great for tips, and others suck.

ntsplnkv2 6y ago
You shouldn't be downvoted. A lot of people make a lot of money off of tips. Does that translate to most? No, but this incentivizes many people to be pro-tip.

emptysongglass 6y ago

Can we talk about why service is astronomically better in the US than countries with very high worker protections and base wages like Denmark? I'm genuinely curious what you think the factors are in their difference because when I live in Denmark (as I do now) it feels like the waiter could give less of a s** whether the service is good or not whereas when I live in LA or NYC I feel like I am the golden child of their day. The mind first reaches to "it must be tips" but I am genuinely curious what you think the primary factor of this yawning gap in service is if not tips. I mean I even worked for a Danish guy who was Noma's head chef's former sous chef (he had just opened a new restaurant in NYC at the time) and the American staff he employed there was just leagues beyond anything I had ever seen in DK.

abandonliberty 6y ago
It's cultural. You can get amazing service in other countries with little or no tipping culture. Sure, tipping may be an incentive as well, but most people I know won't go below 10% even if the service is terrible.
- emptysongglass 6y ago
  Which other countries with little to no tipping culture do you receive amazing service? Again, I am curious, not combative, so please take care if applying disdain to my comments.
  - tomp 6y ago
    Japan. Really awkward as well. Basically the whole staff was waving at us until we went around the corner and they couldn’t see us any more. Didn’t know what to do - ignore, acknowledge, turn back and keep eye contact while still walking forward, smile, stop, wave ... This was a high-end restaurant though.
  - drewwwwww 6y ago
    japan
  - 6y ago

silvestrov 6y ago

I think people like tipping because they like this amount of power: enough to feel a bit powerful over other people, but also not so much they have a responsibility to carry. That's why you're not allowed to tip 0% if the services rendered were worth 0%.

pelliphant 6y ago

> And because tips are everywhere now As a european, I really don't think that's true.

gwd 6y ago

> A tip is not an act of generosity, either, you're paying a fee for a service rendered. I once took a cab from my hotel in Zhengzhou (in central China) to the airport. It was during rush hour, so what would otherwise have been a 15-minute drive took over an hour. But the meter was obviously set to work only on distance travelled, and the fare seemed to me to be obscenely low for over an hour of work. I knew in China that tipping wasn't a thing, but having been raised in the US, I felt obligated to try in this situation. You should have seen the insulted look on her face. She was doing an honest job for an agreed-upon price, and didn't need any "largesse" from me.