10 ms·

Totally agree. One side constantly levels wild accusations of racism, supremacism, insurrection, attempted murder, etc, while for the most part the other side j

by Tycho 6y ago

Totally agree. One side constantly levels wild accusations of racism, supremacism, insurrection, attempted murder, etc, while for the most part the other side just rolls its eyes and cracks jokes to “own the libs.” One side thinks the other is evil, the other lot just think they’re foolish. One side invents stuff like Critical Race Theory and works with their media allies to overhaul the education system and infuse everything with divisive/polarising concepts like “privilege” and “systemic racism”, while the other side just continues writing stuffy journal articles about old economic theory. Of course you can find fringe lunatics on either side saying anything, but I’m talking about that which is mainstreamed in Congress, in the NYT, on the big TV networks.

TylerE 6y ago
Which party claims MTG, DT, and the MyPillow guy? They’re the crazy ones.
- Tycho 6y ago
  “MTG” is the exception that proves the rule.
  - cozuya 6y ago
    MTG believes that Nancy Pelosi should be murdered. Half of the Republican caucus in the house, today, gave MTG a standing ovation. https://twitter.com/cam_joseph/status/1357116355988910080 https://twitter.com/cam_joseph/status/1357116355988910080 More Republican (citizens) have a favorable opinion of MTG than an unfavorable one. https://twitter.com/ArgoJournal/status/1356995117396201474 https://twitter.com/ArgoJournal/status/1356995117396201474 MTG is the Republican party. Have fun with that, and especially, have fun defending that.
    - Tycho 6y ago
      They applauded her after she apologized for promoting QAnon. It’s incredible how rather than indulge in a microsecond of self reflection, people like you just latch onto the most extreme caricature of your opponents that your media vendors can muster, ignoring the substantive reality.
      - cozuya 6y ago
        Source? Also, looks like you might have missed this one. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26021189 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26021189
        cozuya 6y ago
        So no source then?
        Tycho 6y ago
        The source was the Vice article linked in the Twitter thread you posted. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en/article/bvxbn3/republicans-wont-punish-qanon-congresswoman-marjorie-taylor-greene https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en/article/b... I don’t want to keep spending time on this. My position is that QAnon is a fringe internet phenomenon that is a total unknown to most people. Of the people who do have some knowledge of it, few take it seriously. A few crazies do, sure. But its somber elevation to grave significance by the liberal media is totally ridiculous (and gave it more attention than it ever would have gotten otherwise).
        cozuya 6y ago
        Did a few crazies invade the capitol in attempt to hang the Vice President, causing 5 deaths? Did a few crazies elect MTG, who advocates for murdering Nancy Pelosi, and then refuses to censor her/remove her from commitees? You can minimize this stuff all you want and deflect blame to librul media, but YOUR PARTY (that you have constantly defended in these threads) is and holds these positions. The Republican party is the party of murdering their political foes, even ones in their own party. The Republican party is the party of Barack Obama is a Muslim (something MTG has said on video and refuses to retract). Just own it.
        cozuya 6y ago
        Weird that you didn't disavow hanging Mike Pence. Strange!
    - rayiner 6y ago
      > MTG believes that Nancy Pelosi should be murdered Oh please. This sort of rhetoric, while distasteful, is such a common sort of exaggeration that there’s a Supreme Court case on it: https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/707/watts-v-united-states https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/707/watts-v-uni... > Robert Watts, attended an anti-war rally at the Washington Monument.... Watts allegedly said: “I am not going. If they ever make me carry a rifle the first man I want to get in my sights is L.B.J.” > The Court agreed with Watts’s counsel’s characterization of Watts’s speech as “a kind of very crude offensive method of stating a political opposition to the President” that did not qualify as a true threat. The phrase “deserves a bullet to the head” or the like is a (juvenile and violent, but common) figure of speech. It’s invariably used figuratively not literally.
      - tptacek 6y ago
        That's a little hard to square with the mob that descended on the Capitol, which included people who apparently seriously hoped to kill politicians. We all get that "I'm going to kill him!" is usually just an expletive. It's not always, though. MTG seems like a strange hill to die on. I assume you pretty much share the contempt everyone else has for her.
        rayiner 6y ago
        What does the mob have to do with MTG’s liking a violent comment about Pelosi a year earlier? I think MTG is a nut and should go the way of Steve King. But someone being a bigot and a nut and a conspiracy theorist isn’t an excuse for accusing them of sincerely wanting to murder people for using clearly hyperbolic rhetoric.
        idlewords 6y ago
        Such hyperbolic accusations aren't limited to MTG; see the effort to accuse Lauren Boebert of endangering her colleagues by allegedly carrying weapons onto the House floor (open carry is part of her schtick) or allegedly endangering the life of the Speaker of the House by "tweeting her location" (in reference to a tweet that said that the Speaker was being evacuated). Reframing controversial political disagreements as uncontroversial issues of personal safety is a cancel culture trope that has worked well elsewhere and now being imported into our political life. Hence the ongoing theater with metal detectors and armed military guards, as well as the baseless accusations that legislators pose some physical risk to their colleagues and must therefore be expelled.
- rayiner 6y ago
  Which side claims Robin DiAngelo?
  - eli_gottlieb 6y ago
    Neither the MyPillow guy nor Robin DiAngelo, grifters though they may be, are elected officials.
    - rayiner 6y ago
      I was offering a counterpart to MyPillow guy. I agree MTG and DJT are much more dangerous.
  - tptacek 6y ago
    Robin DiAngelo is bad, but she's not "overthrow the government" bad. I know it's a message board and you can axiomatically six-degrees your way into saying anyone is as bad as anyone else (try it: Paul Graham vs. Slavoj Zizek, bonus points for connecting through Short Round). But DiAngelo is simply a grifter, not a menace.
    - rayiner 6y ago
      Sure, but she might be “Jewish space lasers bad.”
      - pvg 6y ago
        Hang on, one of these things is straight-up anti-semitism, one of the most destructive bigotries around with a long baleful record to prove it. The other thing is... whatever it is, how is it anywhere close to anti-semitism?
        rayiner 6y ago
        What Di Angelo peddles is the same thing: racism. She has said she tries to “be a little less white every day.” If you told me I should “be a little less Bangladeshi every day” you’d get a trip to HR and probably fired. But HR invites a bigot like Di Angelo to come lecture people about race. I don’t perceive the two as being any different (particularly because I can’t help but imagine someone saying it to my half white kids when I hear it). There is a line between explaining to a racial majority they can be insensitive or oblivious or defensive, and saying stuff like that which implies that their race is bad and they should try to minimize it. Di Angelo pole vaults over that line.
vimy 6y ago
For those that don’y know what ctr is, an example of what critical race theory in practice looks like can be found here: https://christopherrufo.com/woke-elementary/ https://christopherrufo.com/woke-elementary/ It’s scary how this racist neo-marxism is rapidly replacing liberal values in the US.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
  Giving you the benefit of the doubt that crt is bad, can it also be true that minority Americans are victims of racism? Assuming yes, then the problem becomes what's a better approach to embedded racism than crt.
  - vimy 6y ago
    You can't fix racism by making everyone obsessed about race. This seems like a much healthier approach: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/can-chloe-valdary-sell-skeptics-dei/617875/?utm_source=feed https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/can-chloe-...
    - Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
      I can agree with that on face. I'm fine with trying things out, evaluating results, considering novel methods with history in mind and trying new things when the old ones are no longer suitable. I'm not fine with giving up on fighting racism because crt is flawed.
hooande 6y ago
> "while for the most part the other side just rolls its eyes and cracks jokes to 'own the libs.'" They literally stormed the capitol, dude. Here's the bottom line: there is not an equivalent of qanon or MTG on the left. You can exaggerate any number of things you don't like about liberals to ridiculous proportions, but this fact will still be true. Honest discussions require looking at the world bluntly and clearly. If you want to list various social trends you don't like, start a thread for that. We're trying to discuss whether the parties are fundamentally different, or not.
- vimy 6y ago
  >Here's the bottom line: there is not an equivalent of qanon or MTG on the left. The left is currently re-enacting the Chinese cultural revolution and most people won't realize it until it's too late. Learn about critical race theory: https://newdiscourses.com/2021/01/what-is-critical-race-theory/ https://newdiscourses.com/2021/01/what-is-critical-race-theo...
  - 8note 6y ago
    You should go actually learn about critical race theory, from critical race theorists, rather than from someone's opinion of a straw man
    - vimy 6y ago
      It’s racist. It's literally based on Marxism. There are so many examples where it leads to racism once you apply it in practice: https://www.city-journal.org/racial-equity-programs-seattle-schools https://www.city-journal.org/racial-equity-programs-seattle-... Where are the examples of it improving the world? There are none. It’s an evil ideology.
- Tycho 6y ago
  Assembling a mob is almost always a bad idea as it tends to get out of control. What’s notable about the Capitol riot is that it was a rare instance of Republicans doing this. The only other instance that springs to mind is “Charlottesville”, which of course the media talked about for years afterwards. Meanwhile, “the left” formed mobs all summer - in city centres, outside police precincts, outside the White House, etc. When “the left” does QAnon it’s called the Mueller Investigation and the Rachel Maddow Show and it’s broadly embraced rather than limited to a bunch of cooks on social media.
mint2 6y ago
Sooo about the 45th president of the United States, the man who regularly labeled people enemies. Which party was he the leader of again? Was there anything you didn’t like about his rhetoric? Do you think Mexican American immigrants enjoyed it when he labeled them all as... I don’t even want to repeat it. Do you not remember any of that or did a filter bubble prevent you from learning any of those things?

by Tycho 6y ago

TylerE 6y ago

Which party claims MTG, DT, and the MyPillow guy? They’re the crazy ones.

Tycho 6y ago
“MTG” is the exception that proves the rule.
- cozuya 6y ago
  MTG believes that Nancy Pelosi should be murdered. Half of the Republican caucus in the house, today, gave MTG a standing ovation. https://twitter.com/cam_joseph/status/1357116355988910080 https://twitter.com/cam_joseph/status/1357116355988910080 More Republican (citizens) have a favorable opinion of MTG than an unfavorable one. https://twitter.com/ArgoJournal/status/1356995117396201474 https://twitter.com/ArgoJournal/status/1356995117396201474 MTG is the Republican party. Have fun with that, and especially, have fun defending that.
  - Tycho 6y ago
    They applauded her after she apologized for promoting QAnon. It’s incredible how rather than indulge in a microsecond of self reflection, people like you just latch onto the most extreme caricature of your opponents that your media vendors can muster, ignoring the substantive reality.
    - cozuya 6y ago
      Source? Also, looks like you might have missed this one. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26021189 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26021189
      - cozuya 6y ago
        So no source then?
        Tycho 6y ago
        The source was the Vice article linked in the Twitter thread you posted. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en/article/bvxbn3/republicans-wont-punish-qanon-congresswoman-marjorie-taylor-greene https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en/article/b... I don’t want to keep spending time on this. My position is that QAnon is a fringe internet phenomenon that is a total unknown to most people. Of the people who do have some knowledge of it, few take it seriously. A few crazies do, sure. But its somber elevation to grave significance by the liberal media is totally ridiculous (and gave it more attention than it ever would have gotten otherwise).
        cozuya 6y ago
        Did a few crazies invade the capitol in attempt to hang the Vice President, causing 5 deaths? Did a few crazies elect MTG, who advocates for murdering Nancy Pelosi, and then refuses to censor her/remove her from commitees? You can minimize this stuff all you want and deflect blame to librul media, but YOUR PARTY (that you have constantly defended in these threads) is and holds these positions. The Republican party is the party of murdering their political foes, even ones in their own party. The Republican party is the party of Barack Obama is a Muslim (something MTG has said on video and refuses to retract). Just own it.
        cozuya 6y ago
        Weird that you didn't disavow hanging Mike Pence. Strange!
  - rayiner 6y ago
    > MTG believes that Nancy Pelosi should be murdered Oh please. This sort of rhetoric, while distasteful, is such a common sort of exaggeration that there’s a Supreme Court case on it: https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/707/watts-v-united-states https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/707/watts-v-uni... > Robert Watts, attended an anti-war rally at the Washington Monument.... Watts allegedly said: “I am not going. If they ever make me carry a rifle the first man I want to get in my sights is L.B.J.” > The Court agreed with Watts’s counsel’s characterization of Watts’s speech as “a kind of very crude offensive method of stating a political opposition to the President” that did not qualify as a true threat. The phrase “deserves a bullet to the head” or the like is a (juvenile and violent, but common) figure of speech. It’s invariably used figuratively not literally.
    - tptacek 6y ago
      That's a little hard to square with the mob that descended on the Capitol, which included people who apparently seriously hoped to kill politicians. We all get that "I'm going to kill him!" is usually just an expletive. It's not always, though. MTG seems like a strange hill to die on. I assume you pretty much share the contempt everyone else has for her.
      - rayiner 6y ago
        What does the mob have to do with MTG’s liking a violent comment about Pelosi a year earlier? I think MTG is a nut and should go the way of Steve King. But someone being a bigot and a nut and a conspiracy theorist isn’t an excuse for accusing them of sincerely wanting to murder people for using clearly hyperbolic rhetoric.
        idlewords 6y ago
        Such hyperbolic accusations aren't limited to MTG; see the effort to accuse Lauren Boebert of endangering her colleagues by allegedly carrying weapons onto the House floor (open carry is part of her schtick) or allegedly endangering the life of the Speaker of the House by "tweeting her location" (in reference to a tweet that said that the Speaker was being evacuated). Reframing controversial political disagreements as uncontroversial issues of personal safety is a cancel culture trope that has worked well elsewhere and now being imported into our political life. Hence the ongoing theater with metal detectors and armed military guards, as well as the baseless accusations that legislators pose some physical risk to their colleagues and must therefore be expelled.
rayiner 6y ago
Which side claims Robin DiAngelo?
- eli_gottlieb 6y ago
  Neither the MyPillow guy nor Robin DiAngelo, grifters though they may be, are elected officials.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    I was offering a counterpart to MyPillow guy. I agree MTG and DJT are much more dangerous.
- tptacek 6y ago
  Robin DiAngelo is bad, but she's not "overthrow the government" bad. I know it's a message board and you can axiomatically six-degrees your way into saying anyone is as bad as anyone else (try it: Paul Graham vs. Slavoj Zizek, bonus points for connecting through Short Round). But DiAngelo is simply a grifter, not a menace.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    Sure, but she might be “Jewish space lasers bad.”
    - pvg 6y ago
      Hang on, one of these things is straight-up anti-semitism, one of the most destructive bigotries around with a long baleful record to prove it. The other thing is... whatever it is, how is it anywhere close to anti-semitism?
      - rayiner 6y ago
        What Di Angelo peddles is the same thing: racism. She has said she tries to “be a little less white every day.” If you told me I should “be a little less Bangladeshi every day” you’d get a trip to HR and probably fired. But HR invites a bigot like Di Angelo to come lecture people about race. I don’t perceive the two as being any different (particularly because I can’t help but imagine someone saying it to my half white kids when I hear it). There is a line between explaining to a racial majority they can be insensitive or oblivious or defensive, and saying stuff like that which implies that their race is bad and they should try to minimize it. Di Angelo pole vaults over that line.

vimy 6y ago

For those that don’y know what ctr is, an example of what critical race theory in practice looks like can be found here: https://christopherrufo.com/woke-elementary/ https://christopherrufo.com/woke-elementary/ It’s scary how this racist neo-marxism is rapidly replacing liberal values in the US.

Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
Giving you the benefit of the doubt that crt is bad, can it also be true that minority Americans are victims of racism? Assuming yes, then the problem becomes what's a better approach to embedded racism than crt.
- vimy 6y ago
  You can't fix racism by making everyone obsessed about race. This seems like a much healthier approach: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/can-chloe-valdary-sell-skeptics-dei/617875/?utm_source=feed https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/can-chloe-...
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
    I can agree with that on face. I'm fine with trying things out, evaluating results, considering novel methods with history in mind and trying new things when the old ones are no longer suitable. I'm not fine with giving up on fighting racism because crt is flawed.

hooande 6y ago

> "while for the most part the other side just rolls its eyes and cracks jokes to 'own the libs.'" They literally stormed the capitol, dude. Here's the bottom line: there is not an equivalent of qanon or MTG on the left. You can exaggerate any number of things you don't like about liberals to ridiculous proportions, but this fact will still be true. Honest discussions require looking at the world bluntly and clearly. If you want to list various social trends you don't like, start a thread for that. We're trying to discuss whether the parties are fundamentally different, or not.

vimy 6y ago
>Here's the bottom line: there is not an equivalent of qanon or MTG on the left. The left is currently re-enacting the Chinese cultural revolution and most people won't realize it until it's too late. Learn about critical race theory: https://newdiscourses.com/2021/01/what-is-critical-race-theory/ https://newdiscourses.com/2021/01/what-is-critical-race-theo...
- 8note 6y ago
  You should go actually learn about critical race theory, from critical race theorists, rather than from someone's opinion of a straw man
  - vimy 6y ago
    It’s racist. It's literally based on Marxism. There are so many examples where it leads to racism once you apply it in practice: https://www.city-journal.org/racial-equity-programs-seattle-schools https://www.city-journal.org/racial-equity-programs-seattle-... Where are the examples of it improving the world? There are none. It’s an evil ideology.
Tycho 6y ago
Assembling a mob is almost always a bad idea as it tends to get out of control. What’s notable about the Capitol riot is that it was a rare instance of Republicans doing this. The only other instance that springs to mind is “Charlottesville”, which of course the media talked about for years afterwards. Meanwhile, “the left” formed mobs all summer - in city centres, outside police precincts, outside the White House, etc. When “the left” does QAnon it’s called the Mueller Investigation and the Rachel Maddow Show and it’s broadly embraced rather than limited to a bunch of cooks on social media.

mint2 6y ago

Sooo about the 45th president of the United States, the man who regularly labeled people enemies. Which party was he the leader of again? Was there anything you didn’t like about his rhetoric? Do you think Mexican American immigrants enjoyed it when he labeled them all as... I don’t even want to repeat it. Do you not remember any of that or did a filter bubble prevent you from learning any of those things?