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It is so annoying to see that HN and general media have collectively decided that Google and everything it does is evil, but honestly you have no idea how good

by seaman1921 6y ago

It is so annoying to see that HN and general media have collectively decided that Google and everything it does is evil, but honestly you have no idea how good you have it right now. Google is not abusing your user data like you are made to think. If you talk to a Google engineer, you would realise the countlesss number of measures they take to safeguard user's data - human access is next to impossible. Only machines roles are allowed to request for decryption keys and each access is logged and audited. And even the data a machine gets to see is annonymized and only aggregated analysis is usually allowed which is also required to be approved by dedicated Legal and Security teams. Having worked at a start-up I know how much these smaller companies care about privacy - trust me you are way better with your data lying in Google servers than one of these random small companies claiming to 'protect your privacy'. I would rather trust the brilliant minds at Google to safeguard my data any day.

IanSanders 6y ago
I never understood why an individual would go out of their way to defend a corporation. Otherwise, found a "google engineer". The issue most people have with it is the amount of data collected unnecessarily, rather than the practices around safeguarding it. Many "small startups" wouldn't collect it in the first place and it would be a non-issue. Even when "small startups" are collecting more information as they should, it's not in one basket and has less value without context.
fungi 6y ago
false dichotomy
local_dev 6y ago
I would say that we have different definitions of 'abuse' in the case of Google. Of course, Google doesn't sell your data directly to anyone, allow anyone to get your metadata, or allow anyone to view your data. In that sense, I also completely trust Google to be good stewards of my data. That said, while I agree that Google does not 'abuse' my data by giving it to others in any form, Google absolutely does use my data to try to sell me things. From my perspective, this is abuse. Google is using data that I generated to psychologically manipulate my behavior. When Google Search, gmail, and other like services from Google were released, Google was a tech company first and foremost. These properties/services were offered for "free". At the time, most people didn't realize that "free" meant paying with your data. Now, Google is an advertising company and I do not want them to have my data because of that fact. In a similar vein, if The Trade Desk or another adtech company provided a "free" email service it would likely not be widely adopted as it would be well understood that users are paying with their data.
- mav3rick 6y ago
  PLEASE DON"T USE ANY GOOGLE PRODUCTS. Problem solved.
  - ttt0 6y ago
    And I don't, but some people are more or less forced to use either Google or Microsoft products by their employers. I really wish the solution was as simple as that.
    - tylerhou 6y ago
      The solution is as simple as: Go into your privacy settings, and turn off ad personalization. Takes like three clicks. https://adssettings.google.com/authenticated?hl=en https://adssettings.google.com/authenticated?hl=en I have it off for both my personal and Google corporate accounts. (Disclaimer: I work at Google.) If you don't want to be signed in at all, you can install a Chrome extension. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/iba-opt-out-by-google/gbiekjoijknlhijdjbaadobpkdhmoebb https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/iba-opt-out-by-goo...
      - ttt0 6y ago
        That's really cool, but didn't you guys got sued for tracking people even after they opted out? https://www.cnet.com/news/google-sued-for-allegedly-tracking-users-in-apps-even-after-opting-out/ https://www.cnet.com/news/google-sued-for-allegedly-tracking... If I remember correctly you were also tracking logged out users. Are you still doing that or how do I opt out if I don't have an account? Do I have to install Chrome?
        tylerhou 6y ago
        Everything below is my opinion, or information to the best of my personal knowledge. I don't speak for Google. That lawsuit alleges that Google was tracking people (with analytics) during incognito mode, which is different from opting out of ad personalization. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23552967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23552967 for HN discussion on the topic. If you use Firefox, you can install https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/interest-advertising-opt-out/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/interest-adve... to also opt out of ad-personalization. Turning off ad personalization doesn't turn off tracking; it just prevents that data from being used in ads. If you want to turn off data collection altogether (for your Google account) you can manage activity altogether https://myactivity.google.com/activitycontrols https://myactivity.google.com/activitycontrols. (I don't know whether this affects analytics; I assume it does, though.) If you want to disable analytics tracking when you're logged out, you can install another extension (https://tools.google.com/dlpage/gaoptout https://tools.google.com/dlpage/gaoptout) or just install a content blocker like uBlock Origin that blocks the analytics.js/gtag.js scripts altogether.
JKCalhoun 6y ago
I don't doubt you are correct. So Google, let me turn the data collection off.
- dodobirdlord 6y ago
  You pretty much can, and they'll drop what data they have stored as well, if you ask. https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/7660719 https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/7660719
- judge2020 6y ago
  You can, but you obviously lose features [like most Google Assistant functionality if you turn off 'web and search activity' 1] or anti-features [can't view youtube or search ads if you install an ad blocker] by doing so. 1: https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/54068 https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/54068
eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 6y ago
> but honestly you have no idea how good you have it right now. Do me a favor: Grab an Android phone with all the Google crap still on it, factory reset it, and actually read the obnoxious ways in which Google asks you to give it permission to track you. "We want to improve your search results!!! Click yes!" The small print: and thereby enable us to log EVERYWHERE you walk, drive, commute ALL DAY LONG. And that example is rather poor, I can't even properly reiterate how brazenly they lie into your face when they make up reasons for those confirmation dialogs. The last time I did this, I actually had to laugh at how shameless the text was worded. Everything is phrased as if it were 100% to your benefit even though it is 1% to yours and 99% to theirs. It's straight up manipulation.
- Google234 6y ago
  You do get better search results with location tracking though...
  - eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 6y ago
    If I want (which I don't in general!) Google to serve me location specific results I will just enter the desired location into Google Maps along with the keywords. No need to be tracked for that all day and possibly get implicated into random crimes because I happened to be near them. That's an insanely disproportionate cost compared to the effort it spares of having to enter a location into Maps once every few weeks.
- johnisgood 6y ago
  And do not forget the fact that you cannot delete any of these apps, and IIRC Gboard (Google's keyboard) requires Internet access, does it not? In any case, I disabled all Google apps and replaced it with alternatives. I should just root my phone and delete all of it, but sadly I need "Courier Services" and whatnot. Google is everywhere, you cannot even get rid of it.
  - freebuju 6y ago
    Though there's little you can do to escape Google if you are using Android, what gives me some sort of peace is blocking internet access to apps like gboard. (AFAIK it's the only keyboard with support to inline autofill; this is literally the only reason keeping me from torching the app) https://github.com/ukanth/afwall https://github.com/ukanth/afwall
Aerroon 6y ago
My worry is that one day Google may decide that they are going to severely abuse my data. If they build up the idea over the years that they have your data then the jump to abusing it will be much smaller.
- dodobirdlord 6y ago
  Then ask them to delete it all. You, like most people, probably won't ask - because it's extremely convenient to have Google store all of this data. But if you think the upside isn't worth the risk, just ask and they will destroy it all for you. You don't even have to claim you live in the EU or California or somewhere else with at data protection law. https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/7660719 https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/7660719
  - robin_reala 6y ago
    To be specific, that only gets Google to delete personal data associated with an account, not any shadow profiles they’ve built up.
  - amf12 6y ago
    You don't even have to request it every time you see a privacy post online. The control allow you to set up an auto deletion policy (min is 3 months).
  - swiley 6y ago
    You'll probably have the choice of abandoning your account or consenting to let them use at least the new data. I know a lot of people who have decided they've had enough only to realize that so much of their life has been integrated into their Google/Apple account that they can't actually leave.

IanSanders 6y ago

I never understood why an individual would go out of their way to defend a corporation. Otherwise, found a "google engineer". The issue most people have with it is the amount of data collected unnecessarily, rather than the practices around safeguarding it. Many "small startups" wouldn't collect it in the first place and it would be a non-issue. Even when "small startups" are collecting more information as they should, it's not in one basket and has less value without context.

fungi 6y ago

false dichotomy

local_dev 6y ago

I would say that we have different definitions of 'abuse' in the case of Google. Of course, Google doesn't sell your data directly to anyone, allow anyone to get your metadata, or allow anyone to view your data. In that sense, I also completely trust Google to be good stewards of my data. That said, while I agree that Google does not 'abuse' my data by giving it to others in any form, Google absolutely does use my data to try to sell me things. From my perspective, this is abuse. Google is using data that I generated to psychologically manipulate my behavior. When Google Search, gmail, and other like services from Google were released, Google was a tech company first and foremost. These properties/services were offered for "free". At the time, most people didn't realize that "free" meant paying with your data. Now, Google is an advertising company and I do not want them to have my data because of that fact. In a similar vein, if The Trade Desk or another adtech company provided a "free" email service it would likely not be widely adopted as it would be well understood that users are paying with their data.

mav3rick 6y ago
PLEASE DON"T USE ANY GOOGLE PRODUCTS. Problem solved.
- ttt0 6y ago
  And I don't, but some people are more or less forced to use either Google or Microsoft products by their employers. I really wish the solution was as simple as that.
  - tylerhou 6y ago
    The solution is as simple as: Go into your privacy settings, and turn off ad personalization. Takes like three clicks. https://adssettings.google.com/authenticated?hl=en https://adssettings.google.com/authenticated?hl=en I have it off for both my personal and Google corporate accounts. (Disclaimer: I work at Google.) If you don't want to be signed in at all, you can install a Chrome extension. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/iba-opt-out-by-google/gbiekjoijknlhijdjbaadobpkdhmoebb https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/iba-opt-out-by-goo...
    - ttt0 6y ago
      That's really cool, but didn't you guys got sued for tracking people even after they opted out? https://www.cnet.com/news/google-sued-for-allegedly-tracking-users-in-apps-even-after-opting-out/ https://www.cnet.com/news/google-sued-for-allegedly-tracking... If I remember correctly you were also tracking logged out users. Are you still doing that or how do I opt out if I don't have an account? Do I have to install Chrome?
      - tylerhou 6y ago
        Everything below is my opinion, or information to the best of my personal knowledge. I don't speak for Google. That lawsuit alleges that Google was tracking people (with analytics) during incognito mode, which is different from opting out of ad personalization. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23552967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23552967 for HN discussion on the topic. If you use Firefox, you can install https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/interest-advertising-opt-out/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/interest-adve... to also opt out of ad-personalization. Turning off ad personalization doesn't turn off tracking; it just prevents that data from being used in ads. If you want to turn off data collection altogether (for your Google account) you can manage activity altogether https://myactivity.google.com/activitycontrols https://myactivity.google.com/activitycontrols. (I don't know whether this affects analytics; I assume it does, though.) If you want to disable analytics tracking when you're logged out, you can install another extension (https://tools.google.com/dlpage/gaoptout https://tools.google.com/dlpage/gaoptout) or just install a content blocker like uBlock Origin that blocks the analytics.js/gtag.js scripts altogether.

JKCalhoun 6y ago

I don't doubt you are correct. So Google, let me turn the data collection off.

dodobirdlord 6y ago
You pretty much can, and they'll drop what data they have stored as well, if you ask. https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/7660719 https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/7660719
judge2020 6y ago
You can, but you obviously lose features [like most Google Assistant functionality if you turn off 'web and search activity' 1] or anti-features [can't view youtube or search ads if you install an ad blocker] by doing so. 1: https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/54068 https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/54068

eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 6y ago

> but honestly you have no idea how good you have it right now. Do me a favor: Grab an Android phone with all the Google crap still on it, factory reset it, and actually read the obnoxious ways in which Google asks you to give it permission to track you. "We want to improve your search results!!! Click yes!" The small print: and thereby enable us to log EVERYWHERE you walk, drive, commute ALL DAY LONG. And that example is rather poor, I can't even properly reiterate how brazenly they lie into your face when they make up reasons for those confirmation dialogs. The last time I did this, I actually had to laugh at how shameless the text was worded. Everything is phrased as if it were 100% to your benefit even though it is 1% to yours and 99% to theirs. It's straight up manipulation.

Google234 6y ago
You do get better search results with location tracking though...
- eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 6y ago
  If I want (which I don't in general!) Google to serve me location specific results I will just enter the desired location into Google Maps along with the keywords. No need to be tracked for that all day and possibly get implicated into random crimes because I happened to be near them. That's an insanely disproportionate cost compared to the effort it spares of having to enter a location into Maps once every few weeks.
johnisgood 6y ago
And do not forget the fact that you cannot delete any of these apps, and IIRC Gboard (Google's keyboard) requires Internet access, does it not? In any case, I disabled all Google apps and replaced it with alternatives. I should just root my phone and delete all of it, but sadly I need "Courier Services" and whatnot. Google is everywhere, you cannot even get rid of it.
- freebuju 6y ago
  Though there's little you can do to escape Google if you are using Android, what gives me some sort of peace is blocking internet access to apps like gboard. (AFAIK it's the only keyboard with support to inline autofill; this is literally the only reason keeping me from torching the app) https://github.com/ukanth/afwall https://github.com/ukanth/afwall

Aerroon 6y ago

My worry is that one day Google may decide that they are going to severely abuse my data. If they build up the idea over the years that they have your data then the jump to abusing it will be much smaller.

dodobirdlord 6y ago
Then ask them to delete it all. You, like most people, probably won't ask - because it's extremely convenient to have Google store all of this data. But if you think the upside isn't worth the risk, just ask and they will destroy it all for you. You don't even have to claim you live in the EU or California or somewhere else with at data protection law. https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/7660719 https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/7660719
- robin_reala 6y ago
  To be specific, that only gets Google to delete personal data associated with an account, not any shadow profiles they’ve built up.
- amf12 6y ago
  You don't even have to request it every time you see a privacy post online. The control allow you to set up an auto deletion policy (min is 3 months).
- swiley 6y ago
  You'll probably have the choice of abandoning your account or consenting to let them use at least the new data. I know a lot of people who have decided they've had enough only to realize that so much of their life has been integrated into their Google/Apple account that they can't actually leave.