8 ms·

Prop. 22 faces first legal challenge as SEIU, ride-hail drivers file suit

53 points by sharkweek 6y ago

Simulacra 6y ago
For those of us who are not familiar with California's proposition system, have there been others like this that have been successfully challenged in court?
- djrogers 6y ago
  The most famous ballot prop ever struck down was Prop 187, passed (overwhelmingly) in 1994 and struck down as unconstitutional.
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    "Overwhelmingly" is a stretch, I'd say. According to Wikipedia,[0] it passed with 58.93% of the vote. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_California_Proposition_187 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_California_Proposition_18...
    - djrogers 6y ago
      59-41 is an 18% swing, and would be considered an overwhelming majority in most political endeavors. Both modern and contemporaneous accounts of that particular election refer to the results as such, but feel free to attach whatever modifier you wish.
      - colejohnson66 6y ago
        Idk. For me, if I had 20 friends, and 12 agreed to do something, I wouldn’t say they “overwhelmingly agree”. I’d just say a majority. But politics is on a much bigger scale.
        triceratops 6y ago
        Your friends are more likely to agree with you (and each other) on things because that's one of the reasons you're friends. I can think of very few things, other than the basics like "murder is bad", that 58% of the general public agrees on.
        throw_away 6y ago
        We're not even at 59% for "ghosts don't exist": https://today.yougov.com/topics/lifestyle/articles-reports/2019/10/21/paranormal-beliefs-ghosts-demons-poll https://today.yougov.com/topics/lifestyle/articles-reports/2...
      - Narkov 6y ago
        Nit pick...but in a binary decision (yes/no), the margin is only 9% as every loss on one side is a gain on the other. For example, a 9% swing results in a tie.
    - northisup 6y ago
      as far as votes go, anything over a 1-2% margin is usually considered "overwhelming"
  - neilparikh 6y ago
    Sort of OT, but it's interesting to consider that on the net, Prop 187 might have actually been a positive thing for non Americans: better benefits for immigrants will generally lead to further restrictions on immigration, since the cost per immigrant goes up (and people complain about "immigrants stealing American tax dollars"). Sure, having benefits is nice, but most illegal immigrants aren't coming to the US for the benefits, so if their options are "less are allowed, but the ones that are allowed get benefits", and "more are allowed, but no benefits", almost all non-Americans would chose the second (because America even without benefits would be a massive increase in their quality of life [0]). [0] - Or it wouldn't be a increase in quality of life, in which they wouldn't come either way. I just have a hard time thinking of many people (compared to the size of the "always better" and "always worse" groups) whose quality of life in America without benefits would be worse relative to their home country, but better than their home country if given benefits (those that are normally given to Americans) in America.
- ummonk 6y ago
  A big example would be Prop 8. After courts ruled there was a constitutional right for gay marriages, a slim majority voted to pass an amendment to the state constitution banning gay marriage. This was ruled unconstitutional by a federal court. It was really weird because at the time, gay marriage was not a constitutional right nationally, so the federal courts were essentially ruling "gay marriage doesn't need to be allowed in your state, but if it is, you can't take away the right".
random5634 6y ago
Without getting into the merits of the whole are ride hail drivers employees thing, I do have close experience with AB5. AB5 - union drafted, is an absolute unworkable travesty. A key tell - for a "principled" law - they had to keep on adding so many carveouts and exceptions (and there are lots missed still). I know folks - who are actively trying to do the right thing - tearing their hair out over AB5. AB5 has really soured me on some of the labor rights stuff. AB5 is in no way a model solution - I hope other states can come up with more practical approaches - with some thought to the folks who just want a simple way to do the right thing without endless carveouts and classification arguments.
- ChuckMcM 6y ago
  Pretty much the history of labor rights :-) One of the interesting language aspects of this debate are the differences between people who call it the labor market and people who call it labor rights. I read a great book on the history of the labor movement in the US (sorry I've forgotten the title it was a long time ago) and there was a great discussion between the point of view that governments manage rights and companies manage markets.
- underseacables 6y ago
  A similar issue can be found in occupational licensure laws. Carve outs for everyone, and they keep coming. There is a serious effort underway to require a license for florists, interior designers, and hair braiders, and the exemptions and carve outs have gotten so bad that it’s hard to justify these licenses as beneficial to protect the public.
  - thaumasiotes 6y ago
    > the exemptions and carve outs have gotten so bad that it’s hard to justify these licenses as beneficial to protect the public. I don't follow the logic. If there were no exemptions or carveouts, it would be even harder to claim that the licensures were beneficial.
    - underseacables 6y ago
bquest2 6y ago
Reminder, before the commentors come in and complain about the 7/8 reqirement for changing prop 22, Propositions can only be changed with another proposition by default. edit: removed snarky ""
- dang 6y ago
  Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your reference to "commentors", but it looks to me like an insinuation of the sort that the HN guidelines ask people not to post: "Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... You've done that sort of thing more than once before. Please don't. If you think you're seeing evidence of abuse, obviously we want to know about that and will take a look if you let us know. But cheap accusations of manipulation are one of the worst, most widespread toxins degrading this place, so please omit those.
gumby 6y ago
I do very much hope they win, but I can't see their strategy working (by definition a constitutional change overrides legislative powers). But IANAL. If they do win it may positively affect certain other unreasonable constraints that won referenda.
- diebeforei485 6y ago
  Looks like they've already lost- https://techcrunch.com/2021/02/03/ca-supreme-court-denies-lawsuit-challenging-prop-22s-constitutionality/ https://techcrunch.com/2021/02/03/ca-supreme-court-denies-la... They can try to re-file in a lower court.
- tannedNerd 6y ago
  - Why so we can go back to political carveouts of AB5? - Why are you ok with only these freelancers being allowed in California? "Recording arts, music, performing arts. landscape architecture, translation of documents, copy editing and illustrations, registered professional forestry real estate appraising ,home inspections , insurance underwriting inspections, auditing, and risk management and loss control, manufactured housing sales, international and cultural exchange services, competition judging, digital content and feedback aggregation, master class performance." https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/ab2257-not-much-better-than-ab5-for-35040/ https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/ab2257-not-much-better-tha... So you are ok with California government deciding who can and can't be a freelancer?
  - _jal 6y ago
    Are you OK with special-interest legislation effectively rewriting the constitution to support their business model? Do you really believe it has to be one or the other?
    - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      Unfortunately, it seems that it does have to be one or the other. AB5 was itself special-interest legislation, with a huge list of exemptions to support the Assembly's favored business models.
bhupy 6y ago
It appears they've already lost -> https://techcrunch.com/2021/02/03/ca-supreme-court-denies-lawsuit-challenging-prop-22s-constitutionality/ https://techcrunch.com/2021/02/03/ca-supreme-court-denies-la...
mixmastamyk 6y ago
AB5 outlawed a lucrative software contract I had in DC, unfortunately even on HN only Uber drivers get any press.
supernova87a 6y ago
AB5/2257 were so ridiculous in practice, I couldn't bring myself to agree with the principle they stood for. And aside from that, if a party can sue over a proposition saying that it unconstitutionally hobbles the legislature from doing its job, doesn't that defeat the notion of propositions in general? That's the whole point of propositions. The ABs had a list of exceptions a mile long, I suppose put there by the labor interests that wrote the bill. I didn't see why some of these contractors aren't equally exploited and subject to the whim of big evil corporations. What did it matter then, to carve out one more exception for Lyft/Uber drivers to join this list? A commercial fisherman is less worthy of being protected than a Lyft or Uber driver? You've got to be kidding me. --------------- https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm... Exempted fields: Professional services that include: (A) Marketing, (B) Administrator of human resources (C) Travel agent services (D) Graphic design. (E) Grant writer. (F) (i) Fine artist. (G) Services provided by an enrolled agent (H) Payment processing agent through an independent sales organization. (i) Still photographer, photojournalist, videographer, or photo editor (ii) Digital content aggregator (J) Freelance writer, translator, editor, copy editor, illustrator, or newspaper cartoonist (K) Content contributor, advisor, producer, narrator, or cartographer (L) Licensed esthetician, licensed electrologist, licensed manicurist, licensed barber, or licensed cosmetologist (N) Appraiser (O) Registered professional foresters (1) A real estate licensee (2) A home inspector (3) A repossession agency (A) Recording artists (B) Songwriters, lyricists, composers, and proofers. (C) Managers of recording artists. (D) Record producers and directors. (E) Musical engineers and mixers engaged in the creation of sound recordings. (F) Musicians engaged in the creation of sound recordings, subject to the below. (G) Vocalists (H) Photographers working on recording photo shoots, album covers, and other press and publicity purposes. (I) Independent radio promoters. (J) Any other individual engaged to render any creative, production, marketing, or independent music publicist services related primarily to the creation, marketing, promotion, or distribution of sound recordings or musical compositions. (A) Film and television unit production crew (B) Publicists who are not independent music publicists. (a) A person or organization who is licensed by the Department of Insurance (b) A physician and surgeon, dentist, podiatrist, psychologist, or veterinarian (c) lawyer, architect, landscape architect, engineer, private investigator, or accountant. (d) A securities broker-dealer or investment adviser (e) A direct sales salesperson (f) A manufactured housing salesperson (g) A commercial fisher working on an American vessel. (h) A newspaper distributor (i) An... international exchange visitor (j) A competition judge

53 points by sharkweek 6y ago

For those of us who are not familiar with California's proposition system, have there been others like this that have been successfully challenged in court?

djrogers 6y ago
The most famous ballot prop ever struck down was Prop 187, passed (overwhelmingly) in 1994 and struck down as unconstitutional.
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  "Overwhelmingly" is a stretch, I'd say. According to Wikipedia,[0] it passed with 58.93% of the vote. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_California_Proposition_187 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_California_Proposition_18...
  - djrogers 6y ago
    59-41 is an 18% swing, and would be considered an overwhelming majority in most political endeavors. Both modern and contemporaneous accounts of that particular election refer to the results as such, but feel free to attach whatever modifier you wish.
    - colejohnson66 6y ago
      Idk. For me, if I had 20 friends, and 12 agreed to do something, I wouldn’t say they “overwhelmingly agree”. I’d just say a majority. But politics is on a much bigger scale.
      - triceratops 6y ago
        Your friends are more likely to agree with you (and each other) on things because that's one of the reasons you're friends. I can think of very few things, other than the basics like "murder is bad", that 58% of the general public agrees on.
        throw_away 6y ago
        We're not even at 59% for "ghosts don't exist": https://today.yougov.com/topics/lifestyle/articles-reports/2019/10/21/paranormal-beliefs-ghosts-demons-poll https://today.yougov.com/topics/lifestyle/articles-reports/2...
    - Narkov 6y ago
      Nit pick...but in a binary decision (yes/no), the margin is only 9% as every loss on one side is a gain on the other. For example, a 9% swing results in a tie.
  - northisup 6y ago
    as far as votes go, anything over a 1-2% margin is usually considered "overwhelming"
- neilparikh 6y ago
  Sort of OT, but it's interesting to consider that on the net, Prop 187 might have actually been a positive thing for non Americans: better benefits for immigrants will generally lead to further restrictions on immigration, since the cost per immigrant goes up (and people complain about "immigrants stealing American tax dollars"). Sure, having benefits is nice, but most illegal immigrants aren't coming to the US for the benefits, so if their options are "less are allowed, but the ones that are allowed get benefits", and "more are allowed, but no benefits", almost all non-Americans would chose the second (because America even without benefits would be a massive increase in their quality of life [0]). [0] - Or it wouldn't be a increase in quality of life, in which they wouldn't come either way. I just have a hard time thinking of many people (compared to the size of the "always better" and "always worse" groups) whose quality of life in America without benefits would be worse relative to their home country, but better than their home country if given benefits (those that are normally given to Americans) in America.
ummonk 6y ago
A big example would be Prop 8. After courts ruled there was a constitutional right for gay marriages, a slim majority voted to pass an amendment to the state constitution banning gay marriage. This was ruled unconstitutional by a federal court. It was really weird because at the time, gay marriage was not a constitutional right nationally, so the federal courts were essentially ruling "gay marriage doesn't need to be allowed in your state, but if it is, you can't take away the right".

random5634 6y ago

Without getting into the merits of the whole are ride hail drivers employees thing, I do have close experience with AB5. AB5 - union drafted, is an absolute unworkable travesty. A key tell - for a "principled" law - they had to keep on adding so many carveouts and exceptions (and there are lots missed still). I know folks - who are actively trying to do the right thing - tearing their hair out over AB5. AB5 has really soured me on some of the labor rights stuff. AB5 is in no way a model solution - I hope other states can come up with more practical approaches - with some thought to the folks who just want a simple way to do the right thing without endless carveouts and classification arguments.

ChuckMcM 6y ago
Pretty much the history of labor rights :-) One of the interesting language aspects of this debate are the differences between people who call it the labor market and people who call it labor rights. I read a great book on the history of the labor movement in the US (sorry I've forgotten the title it was a long time ago) and there was a great discussion between the point of view that governments manage rights and companies manage markets.
underseacables 6y ago
A similar issue can be found in occupational licensure laws. Carve outs for everyone, and they keep coming. There is a serious effort underway to require a license for florists, interior designers, and hair braiders, and the exemptions and carve outs have gotten so bad that it’s hard to justify these licenses as beneficial to protect the public.
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  > the exemptions and carve outs have gotten so bad that it’s hard to justify these licenses as beneficial to protect the public. I don't follow the logic. If there were no exemptions or carveouts, it would be even harder to claim that the licensures were beneficial.
  - underseacables 6y ago

bquest2 6y ago

Reminder, before the commentors come in and complain about the 7/8 reqirement for changing prop 22, Propositions can only be changed with another proposition by default. edit: removed snarky ""

dang 6y ago
Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your reference to "commentors", but it looks to me like an insinuation of the sort that the HN guidelines ask people not to post: "Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... You've done that sort of thing more than once before. Please don't. If you think you're seeing evidence of abuse, obviously we want to know about that and will take a look if you let us know. But cheap accusations of manipulation are one of the worst, most widespread toxins degrading this place, so please omit those.

gumby 6y ago

I do very much hope they win, but I can't see their strategy working (by definition a constitutional change overrides legislative powers). But IANAL. If they do win it may positively affect certain other unreasonable constraints that won referenda.

diebeforei485 6y ago
Looks like they've already lost- https://techcrunch.com/2021/02/03/ca-supreme-court-denies-lawsuit-challenging-prop-22s-constitutionality/ https://techcrunch.com/2021/02/03/ca-supreme-court-denies-la... They can try to re-file in a lower court.
tannedNerd 6y ago
- Why so we can go back to political carveouts of AB5? - Why are you ok with only these freelancers being allowed in California? "Recording arts, music, performing arts. landscape architecture, translation of documents, copy editing and illustrations, registered professional forestry real estate appraising ,home inspections , insurance underwriting inspections, auditing, and risk management and loss control, manufactured housing sales, international and cultural exchange services, competition judging, digital content and feedback aggregation, master class performance." https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/ab2257-not-much-better-than-ab5-for-35040/ https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/ab2257-not-much-better-tha... So you are ok with California government deciding who can and can't be a freelancer?
- _jal 6y ago
  Are you OK with special-interest legislation effectively rewriting the constitution to support their business model? Do you really believe it has to be one or the other?
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    Unfortunately, it seems that it does have to be one or the other. AB5 was itself special-interest legislation, with a huge list of exemptions to support the Assembly's favored business models.

bhupy 6y ago

It appears they've already lost -> https://techcrunch.com/2021/02/03/ca-supreme-court-denies-lawsuit-challenging-prop-22s-constitutionality/ https://techcrunch.com/2021/02/03/ca-supreme-court-denies-la...

mixmastamyk 6y ago

AB5 outlawed a lucrative software contract I had in DC, unfortunately even on HN only Uber drivers get any press.

supernova87a 6y ago

AB5/2257 were so ridiculous in practice, I couldn't bring myself to agree with the principle they stood for. And aside from that, if a party can sue over a proposition saying that it unconstitutionally hobbles the legislature from doing its job, doesn't that defeat the notion of propositions in general? That's the whole point of propositions. The ABs had a list of exceptions a mile long, I suppose put there by the labor interests that wrote the bill. I didn't see why some of these contractors aren't equally exploited and subject to the whim of big evil corporations. What did it matter then, to carve out one more exception for Lyft/Uber drivers to join this list? A commercial fisherman is less worthy of being protected than a Lyft or Uber driver? You've got to be kidding me. --------------- https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm... Exempted fields: Professional services that include: (A) Marketing, (B) Administrator of human resources (C) Travel agent services (D) Graphic design. (E) Grant writer. (F) (i) Fine artist. (G) Services provided by an enrolled agent (H) Payment processing agent through an independent sales organization. (i) Still photographer, photojournalist, videographer, or photo editor (ii) Digital content aggregator (J) Freelance writer, translator, editor, copy editor, illustrator, or newspaper cartoonist (K) Content contributor, advisor, producer, narrator, or cartographer (L) Licensed esthetician, licensed electrologist, licensed manicurist, licensed barber, or licensed cosmetologist (N) Appraiser (O) Registered professional foresters (1) A real estate licensee (2) A home inspector (3) A repossession agency (A) Recording artists (B) Songwriters, lyricists, composers, and proofers. (C) Managers of recording artists. (D) Record producers and directors. (E) Musical engineers and mixers engaged in the creation of sound recordings. (F) Musicians engaged in the creation of sound recordings, subject to the below. (G) Vocalists (H) Photographers working on recording photo shoots, album covers, and other press and publicity purposes. (I) Independent radio promoters. (J) Any other individual engaged to render any creative, production, marketing, or independent music publicist services related primarily to the creation, marketing, promotion, or distribution of sound recordings or musical compositions. (A) Film and television unit production crew (B) Publicists who are not independent music publicists. (a) A person or organization who is licensed by the Department of Insurance (b) A physician and surgeon, dentist, podiatrist, psychologist, or veterinarian (c) lawyer, architect, landscape architect, engineer, private investigator, or accountant. (d) A securities broker-dealer or investment adviser (e) A direct sales salesperson (f) A manufactured housing salesperson (g) A commercial fisher working on an American vessel. (h) A newspaper distributor (i) An... international exchange visitor (j) A competition judge