10 ms·

Moscow Detention Centers Have Run Out of Space, Filled with Peaceful Protesters

62 points by dondeee 6y ago

dondeee 6y ago
>Russian authorities have arrested so many people in recent weeks that detention centres in Moscow have run out of space This fact astounds me, I cannot believe that the Russian Government still somehow think they are the good guys here.
- vladTheInhaler 6y ago
  Why would you think that they feel a need to be the "good guys"? They are doing their part in perpetuating a power structure that benefits them personally.
  - dondeee 6y ago
    To be frank, I do not think they feel such a need, I was just trying to get the conversation in the comments started because I feel the need to attract as much attention to this as I personally can.
  - netsharc 6y ago
    Yeah, the police are probably corrupt (random URL to back up my hypothesis: [0]), I remember reading a great book about corruption, Thieves of State, discussed here [1], it talks why the police would be defending the system: > Any highly corrupt society is bound together by a series of interlocking reciprocities: the local policeman who shakes down a passing civilian must in turn pay tribute to his police supervisor, who must pay his supervisor, and so forth; favors or spoils may be distributed in the other direction. My guess is the cops justify their work like in Stanford prison experiment, and they accept without further thinking what Putin says that the protesters are "foreign agents". [0] https://nationalpost.com/news/world/cost-of-corruption-in-russia-where-police-are-openly-taking-1000-bribes-and-grocery-bills-are-raised https://nationalpost.com/news/world/cost-of-corruption-in-ru... [1] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/01/19/corruption-revolt https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/01/19/corruption-rev...
    - dondeee 6y ago
      Thank you very much for the book reference, I am definitely reading this. I think understanding the police psychology is a great insight.
    - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
      > they accept without further thinking what Putin says that the protesters are "foreign agents". No, many Russian police are well aware that protests in Russian are often driven by honest local frustration with the Russian government, and these frustrated people do not need pushing from abroad. (I speak from personal acquaintance with several.) Some police officers might even sympathize with the protesters’ lack of opportunities. However, modern Russia is a country where people affiliated with the force structures live much better than the average citizen, and so naturally they want to hang on to their own families’ prosperity at all costs. If Russia ever liberalizes, then somehow appeasing the force structures for their loss of privilege and stability is something the new regime will have to ensure, distasteful as it might seem. During the overthrow of Saddam Hussein’s regime the US insisted on completely disenfranchising the old Baathist functionaries, for example, and this was a major driver of the civil war and instability that ensued.
      - rnd0 6y ago
        >If Russia ever liberalizes, Big "if" right there. It's a lot more likely that the US and the rest of the western world will continue to slide into oligarchical-drive corruption. Lots more likely.
    - netizen-9748 6y ago
      The Stanford prison experiment has been debunked, it should not be cited as the study was intentionally manipulated. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31380664/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31380664/
      - pitay 6y ago
        Full text here: https://www.gwern.net/docs/psychology/2019-letexier.pdf https://www.gwern.net/docs/psychology/2019-letexier.pdf
ndiscussion 6y ago
I'm not exactly a bootlicker, and I'm not informed on the situation, but do we have any proof this isn't the same kind of peaceful protests we had in the USA? https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/cnn-ridiculed-for-fiery-but-mostly-peaceful-caption-with-video-of-burning-building-in-kenosha/ar-BB18qhIU https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/cnn-ridiculed-for-fi... Any sane government would be arresting people involved with torching police buildings. If these people are innocent, I pray for their release.
- bvrmn 6y ago
  We are walking peacefully without looting and riots. Authorities decline any attempt to get permission for peaceful demonstration which allows them to justify police violence. Situation is pretty grim.
  - lovelyviking 6y ago
    why you are doing this?
- leshenka 6y ago
  First protest this year was at Jan 23rd. Lots of people, lots of, as we're calling them, cosmonauts. Lots of violence towards unarmed people, zero looting. Singular acts of someone hitting or fighting policemen that were wearing full body armor and a helmet with lovered visor and often without badge. (hence cosmonauts) If you were to tune to any government-controlled news channel (pretty much all of them), you'd only see three-minute compilation of "violent protesters" whereas numerous internet media outlets were showing the full picture, all day, live, from all angles. Go figure.
  - leshenka 6y ago
    Oh yeah, the only occasion when the crowd was actually attacking policemen (and/or national guard, makes no difference) was this time [1], go watch, it's hilarious [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zQpAxTq9CY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zQpAxTq9CY
- 6y ago
anm89 6y ago
That's actually a pretty interesting strategy. Just calculate the maximum number of human beings that the state can supervise and then try to get that many people in custody. More so than just holding space, it takes resources to watch, feed etc.
m0llusk 6y ago
That sounds like a great way to get the most out of this pandemic. Detention maximizes closeness and spreading. They could conceivably make vaccinating the detained a priority, but that doesn't seem to fit the current narrative.

62 points by dondeee 6y ago

>Russian authorities have arrested so many people in recent weeks that detention centres in Moscow have run out of space This fact astounds me, I cannot believe that the Russian Government still somehow think they are the good guys here.

vladTheInhaler 6y ago
Why would you think that they feel a need to be the "good guys"? They are doing their part in perpetuating a power structure that benefits them personally.
- dondeee 6y ago
  To be frank, I do not think they feel such a need, I was just trying to get the conversation in the comments started because I feel the need to attract as much attention to this as I personally can.
- netsharc 6y ago
  Yeah, the police are probably corrupt (random URL to back up my hypothesis: [0]), I remember reading a great book about corruption, Thieves of State, discussed here [1], it talks why the police would be defending the system: > Any highly corrupt society is bound together by a series of interlocking reciprocities: the local policeman who shakes down a passing civilian must in turn pay tribute to his police supervisor, who must pay his supervisor, and so forth; favors or spoils may be distributed in the other direction. My guess is the cops justify their work like in Stanford prison experiment, and they accept without further thinking what Putin says that the protesters are "foreign agents". [0] https://nationalpost.com/news/world/cost-of-corruption-in-russia-where-police-are-openly-taking-1000-bribes-and-grocery-bills-are-raised https://nationalpost.com/news/world/cost-of-corruption-in-ru... [1] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/01/19/corruption-revolt https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/01/19/corruption-rev...
  - dondeee 6y ago
    Thank you very much for the book reference, I am definitely reading this. I think understanding the police psychology is a great insight.
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    > they accept without further thinking what Putin says that the protesters are "foreign agents". No, many Russian police are well aware that protests in Russian are often driven by honest local frustration with the Russian government, and these frustrated people do not need pushing from abroad. (I speak from personal acquaintance with several.) Some police officers might even sympathize with the protesters’ lack of opportunities. However, modern Russia is a country where people affiliated with the force structures live much better than the average citizen, and so naturally they want to hang on to their own families’ prosperity at all costs. If Russia ever liberalizes, then somehow appeasing the force structures for their loss of privilege and stability is something the new regime will have to ensure, distasteful as it might seem. During the overthrow of Saddam Hussein’s regime the US insisted on completely disenfranchising the old Baathist functionaries, for example, and this was a major driver of the civil war and instability that ensued.
    - rnd0 6y ago
      >If Russia ever liberalizes, Big "if" right there. It's a lot more likely that the US and the rest of the western world will continue to slide into oligarchical-drive corruption. Lots more likely.
  - netizen-9748 6y ago
    The Stanford prison experiment has been debunked, it should not be cited as the study was intentionally manipulated. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31380664/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31380664/
    - pitay 6y ago
      Full text here: https://www.gwern.net/docs/psychology/2019-letexier.pdf https://www.gwern.net/docs/psychology/2019-letexier.pdf

ndiscussion 6y ago

I'm not exactly a bootlicker, and I'm not informed on the situation, but do we have any proof this isn't the same kind of peaceful protests we had in the USA? https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/cnn-ridiculed-for-fiery-but-mostly-peaceful-caption-with-video-of-burning-building-in-kenosha/ar-BB18qhIU https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/cnn-ridiculed-for-fi... Any sane government would be arresting people involved with torching police buildings. If these people are innocent, I pray for their release.

bvrmn 6y ago
We are walking peacefully without looting and riots. Authorities decline any attempt to get permission for peaceful demonstration which allows them to justify police violence. Situation is pretty grim.
- lovelyviking 6y ago
  why you are doing this?
leshenka 6y ago
First protest this year was at Jan 23rd. Lots of people, lots of, as we're calling them, cosmonauts. Lots of violence towards unarmed people, zero looting. Singular acts of someone hitting or fighting policemen that were wearing full body armor and a helmet with lovered visor and often without badge. (hence cosmonauts) If you were to tune to any government-controlled news channel (pretty much all of them), you'd only see three-minute compilation of "violent protesters" whereas numerous internet media outlets were showing the full picture, all day, live, from all angles. Go figure.
- leshenka 6y ago
  Oh yeah, the only occasion when the crowd was actually attacking policemen (and/or national guard, makes no difference) was this time [1], go watch, it's hilarious [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zQpAxTq9CY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zQpAxTq9CY
6y ago

anm89 6y ago

That's actually a pretty interesting strategy. Just calculate the maximum number of human beings that the state can supervise and then try to get that many people in custody. More so than just holding space, it takes resources to watch, feed etc.

m0llusk 6y ago

That sounds like a great way to get the most out of this pandemic. Detention maximizes closeness and spreading. They could conceivably make vaccinating the detained a priority, but that doesn't seem to fit the current narrative.