7 ms·

So, while this is novel and all, it seems to me that these "resume 2.0" applications indicate a real failure of systems like "jobvite" or whatever backend air b

by nsfmc 15y ago

So, while this is novel and all, it seems to me that these "resume 2.0" applications indicate a real failure of systems like "jobvite" or whatever backend air bnb is using to simplify their hiring decisions. On HN we've been seeing a bunch of these hyper-targeted reverse resumes in the past year because I suspect people have gotten tired of submitting waves of resumes and hearing nothing back within a reasonable timeframe from companies that advertise open positions on their websites but never, for whatever reason, respond. What i'm seeing here, is that traditional recruiting practices are failing in some way because priority is achieved by a) making it to the hn frontpage which b) gets pg to vouch for you. Which is basically no better (or efficient) than the traditional method of hiring folks that you've networked with via friends/school/etc or what have you. I understand that historically those online resume systems are a real losing proposition for applicants, but this suggests that they're more like a black hole rather than a mail slot. Again, this is a critique of these automated systems which seem to be visibly failing because people are going out of their way to subvert them in order to achieve any success.

timr 15y ago
"What i'm seeing here, is that traditional recruiting practices are failing in some way because priority is achieved by a) making it to the hn frontpage which b) gets pg to vouch for you. Which is basically no better (or efficient) than the traditional method of hiring folks that you've networked with via friends/school/etc or what have you." Well, yeah. The purpose of jobvite isn't to get the candidate attention, and these "resume 2.0" (ew...I already hate myself for writing that) shiny, whizzy, attention-getting things aren't scalable. If everyone did this, it wouldn't work. It would just raise the noise level. Also, keep in mind that you're focusing your attention on the wrong side of the problem: it's always possible that this guy could show up for an on-site and stink the place up, because there are plenty of people out there who have lots of enthusiasm and a smattering of ability, but aren't qualified to write code for a big website. So this kind of thing is great for personal marketing, but it's not a solution to the core problem of recruiting from a company's perspective (namely: lots of mouth-breathers are applying, and we need to filter them from the tiny stream of good applicants).
- ezyang 15y ago
  > shiny, whizzy, attention-getting things aren't scalable. If everyone did this, it wouldn't work. It would just raise the noise level. Unclear. In many ways, this is simply a logical extension of the well written cover letter, and if those work, why can't these?
  - aheilbut 15y ago
    I think that in many ways, this is more like printing a resume on neon-yellow construction paper.
  - hugh3 15y ago
    Escalation. Once everybody is doing a shiny, whizzy attention-getting thing, then folks will start competing by being more shiny, more whizzy and more attention-getting than everyone else. Instead of a nicely-designed colourful scrolling webpage people are submitting half-hour semi-interactive animated feature films in which the ghost of Ghandi rises from the grave to tell you all about the advantages of hiring so-and-so while you fight off lizard men and can-can girls.
    - Mz 15y ago
      At which point, understated elegance will become the new rage.
      - hugh3 15y ago
        Exactly. I'm ahead of the curve. Here's my cover letter. It's in twelve-point Times, motherfuckers!
        Mz 15y ago
        As soon as you said that, the phrase "unfashionably early" came to mind. I didn't immediately post it because I figured it would be interpreted negatively/argumentatively. That's not really my intent. I am just thinking of your remarks in terms of "fashion trends": Looking back historically, hemlines go up and down again, ties get fatter then skinnier again and so on. I don't personally read any big significance into the possibility that this is part of a trend towards over-the-top, bling-bling, excessively flashy job-hunting techniques. Maybe it is but I think the value in this particular post/microsite is that he seems to be genuinely interested in this company and that he made the webpage and posted it here rather than sending it directly to the company. So it got notice because other people already vetted it for him so to speak. I think sincere interest in a particular company is always something of value for that company. I remember reading a story where a recruiter at IBM said he would hire the next person who knew what the letters "IBM" stood for because he was so sick of interviewing people who had zero idea what the company did. Most folks who are job-hunting are just looking for a paycheck. There is limited value in that from the perspective of the company. That's not to point fingers at anyone. I am as guilty of that as anyone and that is part of why I am still stuck in an entry level job in an industry I never had any interest in. I'm a former homemaker who was going through a divorce and I needed a paycheck. I did try to apply to jobs in the field I was training for/had relevant education for but I never completed my bachelor's and ultimately took the first job offered me, having nothing to do with any of that. I am envious of Loren for having a clear idea what he wants to do and being in a position to go after it. In terms of career, I have not ever been in that situation: I either knew and wasn't qualified or didn't know (and also had other significant obstacles). I sincerely wish him all the best. (If his site somehow ends up promoting over-the-top, bling-bling horrors in the future, may he find absolution for this small sin.)
bigiain 15y ago
"On HN we've been seeing a bunch of these hyper-targeted reverse resumes in the past year because I suspect people have gotten tired of submitting waves of resumes and hearing nothing back within a reasonable timeframe" Perhaps. But another point of view is that "standard" job application / resume submission techniques are fine for ordinary people, but that extraordinary people will always find a better, or at least different way. I strongly get the impression that Loren wouldn't be happy/satisfied at the sort of marginally creative middle management job that you land by using American Typewriter instead of Times New ROman for the heading font on your Microsoft Word template #3 reume to "stand out"...
tptacek 15y ago
Systems like "jobvite or whatever" are at odds with this approach, which, for lack of a better term, I'll call the "What Color Is My Parachute"† (WCIMP) Technique. In the WCIMP mindset, you make a shortlist of specific companies you'd like to work for. You brainstorm a pitch about how you believe you'd like to add value to their company. Then, treating every step of the hiring process up to "interview with decision maker" as an obstacle, you run the ropes course for each company. Jobvites and Resumorps and Interfleebs are all obstacles. Is there a system you know about that truly accepts the fact that HR is an obstacle between engaged hiring managers and engaged candidates? I don't know about it. For the most part, these tools all seem geared towards reducing the cost for companies of maintaining their existing obstacle courses. And that's fine, because most people don't take the WCIMP approach to job hunting. Instead, they have a role in mind, and their overall goal is to hunt for a satisfactory place to practice that role. Those people are never going to think about your company and put you on a shortlist and devise a sales pitch, but are only marginally less likely to be awesome as the WCIMP candidates. Your job is only partly one of attracting candidates; it's also to filter them. Personally, I don't see WCIMP tactics as evidence of the failure of obstacle course hiring; rather, they're just particularly graceful ways of navigating the course. † Not endorsing the book, it's just the first one of its kind that I read, 15 years ago.

by nsfmc 15y ago

timr 15y ago

"What i'm seeing here, is that traditional recruiting practices are failing in some way because priority is achieved by a) making it to the hn frontpage which b) gets pg to vouch for you. Which is basically no better (or efficient) than the traditional method of hiring folks that you've networked with via friends/school/etc or what have you." Well, yeah. The purpose of jobvite isn't to get the candidate attention, and these "resume 2.0" (ew...I already hate myself for writing that) shiny, whizzy, attention-getting things aren't scalable. If everyone did this, it wouldn't work. It would just raise the noise level. Also, keep in mind that you're focusing your attention on the wrong side of the problem: it's always possible that this guy could show up for an on-site and stink the place up, because there are plenty of people out there who have lots of enthusiasm and a smattering of ability, but aren't qualified to write code for a big website. So this kind of thing is great for personal marketing, but it's not a solution to the core problem of recruiting from a company's perspective (namely: lots of mouth-breathers are applying, and we need to filter them from the tiny stream of good applicants).

ezyang 15y ago
> shiny, whizzy, attention-getting things aren't scalable. If everyone did this, it wouldn't work. It would just raise the noise level. Unclear. In many ways, this is simply a logical extension of the well written cover letter, and if those work, why can't these?
- aheilbut 15y ago
  I think that in many ways, this is more like printing a resume on neon-yellow construction paper.
- hugh3 15y ago
  Escalation. Once everybody is doing a shiny, whizzy attention-getting thing, then folks will start competing by being more shiny, more whizzy and more attention-getting than everyone else. Instead of a nicely-designed colourful scrolling webpage people are submitting half-hour semi-interactive animated feature films in which the ghost of Ghandi rises from the grave to tell you all about the advantages of hiring so-and-so while you fight off lizard men and can-can girls.
  - Mz 15y ago
    At which point, understated elegance will become the new rage.
    - hugh3 15y ago
      Exactly. I'm ahead of the curve. Here's my cover letter. It's in twelve-point Times, motherfuckers!
      - Mz 15y ago
        As soon as you said that, the phrase "unfashionably early" came to mind. I didn't immediately post it because I figured it would be interpreted negatively/argumentatively. That's not really my intent. I am just thinking of your remarks in terms of "fashion trends": Looking back historically, hemlines go up and down again, ties get fatter then skinnier again and so on. I don't personally read any big significance into the possibility that this is part of a trend towards over-the-top, bling-bling, excessively flashy job-hunting techniques. Maybe it is but I think the value in this particular post/microsite is that he seems to be genuinely interested in this company and that he made the webpage and posted it here rather than sending it directly to the company. So it got notice because other people already vetted it for him so to speak. I think sincere interest in a particular company is always something of value for that company. I remember reading a story where a recruiter at IBM said he would hire the next person who knew what the letters "IBM" stood for because he was so sick of interviewing people who had zero idea what the company did. Most folks who are job-hunting are just looking for a paycheck. There is limited value in that from the perspective of the company. That's not to point fingers at anyone. I am as guilty of that as anyone and that is part of why I am still stuck in an entry level job in an industry I never had any interest in. I'm a former homemaker who was going through a divorce and I needed a paycheck. I did try to apply to jobs in the field I was training for/had relevant education for but I never completed my bachelor's and ultimately took the first job offered me, having nothing to do with any of that. I am envious of Loren for having a clear idea what he wants to do and being in a position to go after it. In terms of career, I have not ever been in that situation: I either knew and wasn't qualified or didn't know (and also had other significant obstacles). I sincerely wish him all the best. (If his site somehow ends up promoting over-the-top, bling-bling horrors in the future, may he find absolution for this small sin.)

bigiain 15y ago

"On HN we've been seeing a bunch of these hyper-targeted reverse resumes in the past year because I suspect people have gotten tired of submitting waves of resumes and hearing nothing back within a reasonable timeframe" Perhaps. But another point of view is that "standard" job application / resume submission techniques are fine for ordinary people, but that extraordinary people will always find a better, or at least different way. I strongly get the impression that Loren wouldn't be happy/satisfied at the sort of marginally creative middle management job that you land by using American Typewriter instead of Times New ROman for the heading font on your Microsoft Word template #3 reume to "stand out"...

tptacek 15y ago

Systems like "jobvite or whatever" are at odds with this approach, which, for lack of a better term, I'll call the "What Color Is My Parachute"† (WCIMP) Technique. In the WCIMP mindset, you make a shortlist of specific companies you'd like to work for. You brainstorm a pitch about how you believe you'd like to add value to their company. Then, treating every step of the hiring process up to "interview with decision maker" as an obstacle, you run the ropes course for each company. Jobvites and Resumorps and Interfleebs are all obstacles. Is there a system you know about that truly accepts the fact that HR is an obstacle between engaged hiring managers and engaged candidates? I don't know about it. For the most part, these tools all seem geared towards reducing the cost for companies of maintaining their existing obstacle courses. And that's fine, because most people don't take the WCIMP approach to job hunting. Instead, they have a role in mind, and their overall goal is to hunt for a satisfactory place to practice that role. Those people are never going to think about your company and put you on a shortlist and devise a sales pitch, but are only marginally less likely to be awesome as the WCIMP candidates. Your job is only partly one of attracting candidates; it's also to filter them. Personally, I don't see WCIMP tactics as evidence of the failure of obstacle course hiring; rather, they're just particularly graceful ways of navigating the course. † Not endorsing the book, it's just the first one of its kind that I read, 15 years ago.