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Or you start buying a GPU that actually supports linux? If you buy a proprietary product with no actual linux support, then why are you complaining to the unpai

Or you start buying a GPU that actually supports linux? If you buy a proprietary product with no actual linux support, then why are you complaining to the unpaid volunteer to fix it, and not the multi-billion dollar company you just made several hundred dollars richer?

h_anna_h 6y ago
In their defence until a few years ago it was nvidia that had the good linux drivers while AMD was stuck with bad ones. The tables turned after AMDGPU as far as I know.
- kuschku 6y ago
  That’s true, but that’d mean running a 900 series Nvidia card or even earlier, which wouldn’t be able to handle multiple 4K monitors natively at 60Hz with or without the proprietary driver. Which means that the author bought an nvidia GPU at a point in time when it was already obvious that nvidia would treat linux as a second class citizen. And even if not, you should first complain to the company you paid hundreds of dollars to, not the unpaid volunteers.
  - SEJeff 6y ago
    Nvidia treats Linux as a first class citizen. In fact, the CUDA stuff on Linux is industry leading. As a result, machine learning on Nvidia is really good. I work with Nick Wilt, the author of the book on CUDA. Nvidia on Linux is amazing. Nvidia on Linux without X11 (for guis) is not, sadly.
    - kaba0 6y ago
      Well, there is a solution: either buy another video card for graphics, or use iGPU. And leave the nvidia one for CUDA only.
      - SEJeff 6y ago
        This is in a work issued computer, so no, this is not a valid solution.
        kuschku 6y ago
        Then add an RX480 4GB as secondary GPU for desktop usage, and only use the nvidia card for CUDA? Or rather, complain to your IT to do so.
gpm 6y ago
It does support Linux, just fine, on x11... It's also the only option for a significant portion of machine learning software. Meanwhile we (or at least I) aren't asking any unpaid volunteers to fix anything. We're asking them to stop claiming their new software works for practically every use case when it doesn't, nothing more.
- SEJeff 6y ago
  Bingo! I’m also asking him to maybe be less of a jerk about it. He complains about users not using his software while also (literally) saying “fuck you nvidia”. Hypocrite much? I’m a former GNOME software foundation member and was on the GNOME sysadmin team. I literally used to have root on gnome.org. I’m not the enemy here, but I’m being made out to be one because I use hardware that OSS stuff does not reliably support.
- bartvk 6y ago
  > We're asking them to stop claiming their new software works for practically every use case Who is 'them' here? Is that Drew DeVault, or can you point to someone else specifically?
  - gpm 6y ago
    In general I don't want to name individuals, because I don't think that's productive. "Them" is a convenient way of keeping arguments from being overly personal. In this specific case I guess it is fair to say it's Drew, since he wrote the article we're commenting on. I don't think he's alone in his statements on wayland though.
zamadatix 6y ago
Or just use KDE Wayland, they support it fine.
- LeoPanthera 6y ago
  Does it? I run KDE on my desktop PC with has a GTX 1080 inside it, and whenever I experimentally turn on Wayland, I get a black screen. Been like that forever.
erk__ 6y ago
Also worth noticing, there are other operating systems that does not use the Linux kernel. FreeBSD does have an official Nvidia driver (although a pretty limited in term of framework suppot) and Nouveau is not ported anymore. The AMD drivers are a port of the Linux drivers and are usually some versions behind because it is work to port them. So it means that I cannot try out sway on my laptop, and as I am not planning to buy a new laptop in the next few years, it is not something I can try soon. Sure I can just run Linux and I do on another drive, but I just end up with X so I can share configurations.
- floatboth 6y ago
  I don't think Nouveau ever was ported before. I actually tried it myself (unsuccessfully). Kind of a painful codebase. > usually some versions behind Currently on 5.4-5.5, only Big Navi is not supported yet. With the state of the GPU market right now, we'll probably catch up before the prices on those become sane :D Funnily enough, it's Intel that's slowing the updates down more than anything. amdgpu is rarely an early adopter of new Linux kernel API surface. i915 is very much one, all the time.
  - Lammy 6y ago
    It was a very long time ago (long enough for 'xf86' naming) https://www.freshports.org/x11-drivers/xf86-video-nouveau https://www.freshports.org/x11-drivers/xf86-video-nouveau
    - floatboth 6y ago
      No, xf86 naming is still there, but you're kinda misunderstanding what a driver is. These xf86 things are tiny pieces for the xorg server. (Irrelevant with Wayland, obviously.) The real "meat" of the driver is in two places: Mesa and the kernel. The kernel module is the hard part. You can install the higher level parts without it, they just won't be useful. You can have the xf86 thing, and libdrm_nouveau, and Mesa dri_nouveau, they don't even require any porting, but they're absolutely useless without the kernel driver, they wouldn't have anything to talk to.
SEJeff 6y ago
CUDA is primarily developed for Linux. You’re showing me that you totally misunderstand the problem by assuming Nvidia doesn’t build these GPUs for Linux. There is a reason that Nvidia gpus + Linux servers top the top 500 supercomputer list. It is because they’re built to work together:
- kuschku 6y ago
  Nvidia supports exactly one use case on Linux: running their GPUs in servers or workstations purely with their proprietary drivers purely for ML and CAD work. Everything else is completely unsupported, and if you’ve got an issue with that, you’ve got to complain to Nvidia, not open source projects. You expect a single unpaid volunteer maintaining a wayland compositor alone to somehow be able to add support for nvidias badly documented custom format?
  - belval 6y ago
    I don't expect anything from anyone, it's about what I need. I need Nvidia GPUs in my setup to run my trainings. If Wayland maintainers wants me to move on from X11 they will have to make it work. Right now they don't want to (which is fine!) but that means I can say I do not consider Wayland to be a viable alternative to X11 for me.
    - SEJeff 6y ago
      Precisely! And this isn't "anti-Wayland horseshit" so much as it is simply Wayland is not viable for your use case and mine as well. He insults nvidia, insults nvidia users, and then complains that people don't want to use wayland. Very unprofessional and laughable that he expects people to agree with his POV.
  - rootbear 6y ago
    More than CAD work. I'm a little out of the loop these days, but as of a few years ago, Nvidia cards were greatly preferred for all 3D work, including animation packages such as Maya. The Nouveau drivers just don't cut it for that sort of work.
africanboy 6y ago
> Or you start buying a GPU that actually supports linux? People usually don't get to chose what HW the company buys for them and, anecdotally, "the component X doesn't work with Wayland" rarely makes a difference. I've tried Wayland many times a year over the past 5 years. I still only get a black screen. X11 just works.

h_anna_h 6y ago

In their defence until a few years ago it was nvidia that had the good linux drivers while AMD was stuck with bad ones. The tables turned after AMDGPU as far as I know.

kuschku 6y ago
That’s true, but that’d mean running a 900 series Nvidia card or even earlier, which wouldn’t be able to handle multiple 4K monitors natively at 60Hz with or without the proprietary driver. Which means that the author bought an nvidia GPU at a point in time when it was already obvious that nvidia would treat linux as a second class citizen. And even if not, you should first complain to the company you paid hundreds of dollars to, not the unpaid volunteers.
- SEJeff 6y ago
  Nvidia treats Linux as a first class citizen. In fact, the CUDA stuff on Linux is industry leading. As a result, machine learning on Nvidia is really good. I work with Nick Wilt, the author of the book on CUDA. Nvidia on Linux is amazing. Nvidia on Linux without X11 (for guis) is not, sadly.
  - kaba0 6y ago
    Well, there is a solution: either buy another video card for graphics, or use iGPU. And leave the nvidia one for CUDA only.
    - SEJeff 6y ago
      This is in a work issued computer, so no, this is not a valid solution.
      - kuschku 6y ago
        Then add an RX480 4GB as secondary GPU for desktop usage, and only use the nvidia card for CUDA? Or rather, complain to your IT to do so.

gpm 6y ago

It does support Linux, just fine, on x11... It's also the only option for a significant portion of machine learning software. Meanwhile we (or at least I) aren't asking any unpaid volunteers to fix anything. We're asking them to stop claiming their new software works for practically every use case when it doesn't, nothing more.

SEJeff 6y ago
Bingo! I’m also asking him to maybe be less of a jerk about it. He complains about users not using his software while also (literally) saying “fuck you nvidia”. Hypocrite much? I’m a former GNOME software foundation member and was on the GNOME sysadmin team. I literally used to have root on gnome.org. I’m not the enemy here, but I’m being made out to be one because I use hardware that OSS stuff does not reliably support.
bartvk 6y ago
> We're asking them to stop claiming their new software works for practically every use case Who is 'them' here? Is that Drew DeVault, or can you point to someone else specifically?
- gpm 6y ago
  In general I don't want to name individuals, because I don't think that's productive. "Them" is a convenient way of keeping arguments from being overly personal. In this specific case I guess it is fair to say it's Drew, since he wrote the article we're commenting on. I don't think he's alone in his statements on wayland though.

zamadatix 6y ago

Or just use KDE Wayland, they support it fine.

LeoPanthera 6y ago
Does it? I run KDE on my desktop PC with has a GTX 1080 inside it, and whenever I experimentally turn on Wayland, I get a black screen. Been like that forever.

erk__ 6y ago

Also worth noticing, there are other operating systems that does not use the Linux kernel. FreeBSD does have an official Nvidia driver (although a pretty limited in term of framework suppot) and Nouveau is not ported anymore. The AMD drivers are a port of the Linux drivers and are usually some versions behind because it is work to port them. So it means that I cannot try out sway on my laptop, and as I am not planning to buy a new laptop in the next few years, it is not something I can try soon. Sure I can just run Linux and I do on another drive, but I just end up with X so I can share configurations.

floatboth 6y ago
I don't think Nouveau ever was ported before. I actually tried it myself (unsuccessfully). Kind of a painful codebase. > usually some versions behind Currently on 5.4-5.5, only Big Navi is not supported yet. With the state of the GPU market right now, we'll probably catch up before the prices on those become sane :D Funnily enough, it's Intel that's slowing the updates down more than anything. amdgpu is rarely an early adopter of new Linux kernel API surface. i915 is very much one, all the time.
- Lammy 6y ago
  It was a very long time ago (long enough for 'xf86' naming) https://www.freshports.org/x11-drivers/xf86-video-nouveau https://www.freshports.org/x11-drivers/xf86-video-nouveau
  - floatboth 6y ago
    No, xf86 naming is still there, but you're kinda misunderstanding what a driver is. These xf86 things are tiny pieces for the xorg server. (Irrelevant with Wayland, obviously.) The real "meat" of the driver is in two places: Mesa and the kernel. The kernel module is the hard part. You can install the higher level parts without it, they just won't be useful. You can have the xf86 thing, and libdrm_nouveau, and Mesa dri_nouveau, they don't even require any porting, but they're absolutely useless without the kernel driver, they wouldn't have anything to talk to.

SEJeff 6y ago

CUDA is primarily developed for Linux. You’re showing me that you totally misunderstand the problem by assuming Nvidia doesn’t build these GPUs for Linux. There is a reason that Nvidia gpus + Linux servers top the top 500 supercomputer list. It is because they’re built to work together:

kuschku 6y ago
Nvidia supports exactly one use case on Linux: running their GPUs in servers or workstations purely with their proprietary drivers purely for ML and CAD work. Everything else is completely unsupported, and if you’ve got an issue with that, you’ve got to complain to Nvidia, not open source projects. You expect a single unpaid volunteer maintaining a wayland compositor alone to somehow be able to add support for nvidias badly documented custom format?
- belval 6y ago
  I don't expect anything from anyone, it's about what I need. I need Nvidia GPUs in my setup to run my trainings. If Wayland maintainers wants me to move on from X11 they will have to make it work. Right now they don't want to (which is fine!) but that means I can say I do not consider Wayland to be a viable alternative to X11 for me.
  - SEJeff 6y ago
    Precisely! And this isn't "anti-Wayland horseshit" so much as it is simply Wayland is not viable for your use case and mine as well. He insults nvidia, insults nvidia users, and then complains that people don't want to use wayland. Very unprofessional and laughable that he expects people to agree with his POV.
- rootbear 6y ago
  More than CAD work. I'm a little out of the loop these days, but as of a few years ago, Nvidia cards were greatly preferred for all 3D work, including animation packages such as Maya. The Nouveau drivers just don't cut it for that sort of work.

africanboy 6y ago

> Or you start buying a GPU that actually supports linux? People usually don't get to chose what HW the company buys for them and, anecdotally, "the component X doesn't work with Wayland" rarely makes a difference. I've tried Wayland many times a year over the past 5 years. I still only get a black screen. X11 just works.