5 ms·

Interesting, i probably wouldn't buy the book for anyone anyway, but still, interesting criticism. I really like the socratic method, i think everyone should b

by orwin 6y ago

Interesting, i probably wouldn't buy the book for anyone anyway, but still, interesting criticism. I really like the socratic method, i think everyone should be trained to use it on their own belief/knowledge during highschool, its a good autodefense tool and was usefull to me during the "gay marriage" debacle in France where a no small part of my familly manifested against basically something that had no impact on their lives at all. Loss of time and energy to fight against something that wouldn't change anything outside a couple except tax rate for gay couple, maybe. Against theism, i only have two thing to say: - Why should i believe your theism is better than the others (it helps that my mother loosely believe in Vishnu while most of my family is catholic on this side)? - Would the existence of a god have any impact on how i already live my life? I already have a community (two even, not counting online ones), i'm already doing the most good i can, will my belief in any god change what i'm already doing?

yters 6y ago
Theism is distinct from a particular form of theism. I know someone created my computer even though I know nothing about the person. Different people may have different theories about the identity of my computer creator, all of which may be false. But it is still a fact that someone created my computer.
_jal 6y ago
> Would the existence of a god have any impact on how i already live my life? If you instead ask, "How would my acting as a sincere believer in this god effect my life?", that gets to what I think of as the honest evangelical impulse. Because the assumption would be you'd go to their events, form relationships with their community, support their ethical assertions and demands for power, etc. There's a less honest, or at least more manipulative, reason as well. Many religious cultures encourage naive evangelism, especially among the young, as a way to expose them to outsider ridicule. It strengthens dedication to the flock. About the only form of religious debate I engage in is gently pointing this out to any young suckers who try to convert me. I don't care what other people believe, but I despise manipulative shitbags. My hope is they'll remember the conversation later when people react predictably and Elder Whoever explains that's because the unclean hate them.
- yters 6y ago
  There is also a well motivated reason for evangelism. If it is true there is an eternal life available of absolute wonder, it seems supremely selfish to keep news of this to one's self. So if someone sincerely believes they have the secret to eternal life, it makes sense they might try to tell other people about it. Penn Jillette said that if Christians really believe they can get eternal life through Jesus, then they are cowards of they don't at least attempt to tell others.
  - _jal 6y ago
    This is true, but I'm looking more at structural features from an etic perspective.
indigochill 6y ago
1. In the case of Christianity (those theistic beliefs which believe Jesus is God in the flesh), it makes a pretty bold claim (i.e. that a human physically came back from the dead) which, if true, is remarkable regardless of faith tradition. It is more difficult to verify the claim now, but eyewitness accounts still exist and can be cross-examined. Interestingly, there are accounts of Jesus' miracles from non-believers as well, who generally believed they were Egyptian magic due to Jesus having spent his early years in Egypt, which has long had a reputation as a land of magic. But the point is, Christianity makes certain assertions about things that it claims historically happened which can be verified or falsified, which is pretty great as belief systems go. I have no particular defense in hand for other theistic beliefs, though. 2. Yes, because "good" is subjective, and the context of our understanding is limited. Someone might believe it is generally good to be tolerant. Others might believe it is good to be intolerant of things which bring about long-term (usually spiritual) harm even if they seem immediately harmless. Supposing we grant that an omniscient benevolent creator god exists and that this god has told us how to live, it stands to reason that those instructions would be of more value than trying to figure things out for ourselves, because we're not omniscient.
- tgflynn 6y ago
  > it makes a pretty bold claim (i.e. that a human physically came back from the dead) which, if true, is remarkable regardless of faith tradition It is not terribly uncommon for humans who were thought to be dead to later exhibit signs of life. This occasionally happens even today. In the 19th century some people were so afraid of being buried alive that they had alarm systems installed in their tombs. Two thousand years ago when medical knowledge was much less advanced such events were probably even more common. > Interestingly, there are accounts of Jesus' miracles from non-believers as well, who generally believed they were Egyptian magic due to Jesus having spent his early years in Egypt, which has long had a reputation as a land of magic. To what accounts are you referring ? To my knowledge the only approximately contemporary mention of Jesus in a non-christian text is a passage from Josephus, the authenticity of which is highly contested among historians. That passage notes that Jesus performed "surprising deeds" but makes no mention of Egyptian magic. I would also note that there are numerous claims throughout history of miracle workers from many different religious traditions.

by orwin 6y ago

yters 6y ago

Theism is distinct from a particular form of theism. I know someone created my computer even though I know nothing about the person. Different people may have different theories about the identity of my computer creator, all of which may be false. But it is still a fact that someone created my computer.

_jal 6y ago

> Would the existence of a god have any impact on how i already live my life? If you instead ask, "How would my acting as a sincere believer in this god effect my life?", that gets to what I think of as the honest evangelical impulse. Because the assumption would be you'd go to their events, form relationships with their community, support their ethical assertions and demands for power, etc. There's a less honest, or at least more manipulative, reason as well. Many religious cultures encourage naive evangelism, especially among the young, as a way to expose them to outsider ridicule. It strengthens dedication to the flock. About the only form of religious debate I engage in is gently pointing this out to any young suckers who try to convert me. I don't care what other people believe, but I despise manipulative shitbags. My hope is they'll remember the conversation later when people react predictably and Elder Whoever explains that's because the unclean hate them.

yters 6y ago
There is also a well motivated reason for evangelism. If it is true there is an eternal life available of absolute wonder, it seems supremely selfish to keep news of this to one's self. So if someone sincerely believes they have the secret to eternal life, it makes sense they might try to tell other people about it. Penn Jillette said that if Christians really believe they can get eternal life through Jesus, then they are cowards of they don't at least attempt to tell others.
- _jal 6y ago
  This is true, but I'm looking more at structural features from an etic perspective.

indigochill 6y ago

1. In the case of Christianity (those theistic beliefs which believe Jesus is God in the flesh), it makes a pretty bold claim (i.e. that a human physically came back from the dead) which, if true, is remarkable regardless of faith tradition. It is more difficult to verify the claim now, but eyewitness accounts still exist and can be cross-examined. Interestingly, there are accounts of Jesus' miracles from non-believers as well, who generally believed they were Egyptian magic due to Jesus having spent his early years in Egypt, which has long had a reputation as a land of magic. But the point is, Christianity makes certain assertions about things that it claims historically happened which can be verified or falsified, which is pretty great as belief systems go. I have no particular defense in hand for other theistic beliefs, though. 2. Yes, because "good" is subjective, and the context of our understanding is limited. Someone might believe it is generally good to be tolerant. Others might believe it is good to be intolerant of things which bring about long-term (usually spiritual) harm even if they seem immediately harmless. Supposing we grant that an omniscient benevolent creator god exists and that this god has told us how to live, it stands to reason that those instructions would be of more value than trying to figure things out for ourselves, because we're not omniscient.

tgflynn 6y ago
> it makes a pretty bold claim (i.e. that a human physically came back from the dead) which, if true, is remarkable regardless of faith tradition It is not terribly uncommon for humans who were thought to be dead to later exhibit signs of life. This occasionally happens even today. In the 19th century some people were so afraid of being buried alive that they had alarm systems installed in their tombs. Two thousand years ago when medical knowledge was much less advanced such events were probably even more common. > Interestingly, there are accounts of Jesus' miracles from non-believers as well, who generally believed they were Egyptian magic due to Jesus having spent his early years in Egypt, which has long had a reputation as a land of magic. To what accounts are you referring ? To my knowledge the only approximately contemporary mention of Jesus in a non-christian text is a passage from Josephus, the authenticity of which is highly contested among historians. That passage notes that Jesus performed "surprising deeds" but makes no mention of Egyptian magic. I would also note that there are numerous claims throughout history of miracle workers from many different religious traditions.