5 ms·

Because most of it was "COVID theater" rather than intended to actually make people safer, the public cannot see the [likely more effective] things you're sugge

Because most of it was "COVID theater" rather than intended to actually make people safer, the public cannot see the [likely more effective] things you're suggesting. Same thing with checking temperature at the door (it doesn't work because people can either never get a fever or be infectious before/after one). Even when it comes to masks we still have very few of the public using well fitting N95 and manufacturers mass-producing masks that barely even cover the side of people's faces (i.e. they don't work as well as they could, even for cloth!). This was totally forgivable in the early days since "better than nothing" masks, but it has been almost a year and effective mask/mask usage still isn't being promoted nor guidelines for producing high quality masks exists.

darkerside 6y ago
They're continuing to say we shouldn't wear N95 masks, to save them for healthcare workers. This has always seemed to me like a short-sighted and reactive approach, instead of proactively starving the supply of infected people by masking up everybody.
- bluGill 6y ago
  the problem is N95 masks are not available. Hospitals are still rationing them to doctors who are dealing with COVID patients. That is those with the greatest need/risk cannot get a N95 mask. There is some supply coming online, but it is slow. Note that KF94 and KN95 masks are somewhat available, I'd recommend my friends use them, but not my friends' friends as supply isn't enough to cover the friends of my friends. These are the Korea and Chinese equivalent to N95, perhaps not as good, but still a lot better. There is also a European standard, but I haven't seen it anywhere in the US.
  - gwittel 6y ago
    IIRC KF94 were designed as an easier to make general population mask in event of a pandemic (after SARS etc). It wasn’t meant to match N95 (or Korea’s equivalent), but to get close. Ideally the US would have an equivalent, or have encouraged manufacture of one long ago, but we all know how that went.
  - 93po 6y ago
    Apparently KN95 isn't as good for preventing liquid transmission (I assume this is important in surgeries) but KN95 is just as good if not a little better protection against aerosoled covid.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  The fact that the DPA wasn’t invoked to spin up N95 mask production early last year has a real “crimes against humanity” feel to it.
  - account42 6y ago
    Yeah, Taiwan got that right - they had the military help with mask production even before any other country considered that this might spread beyond China.
graeme 6y ago
I don’t think that’s all of it. I live in a region that eliminate the virus locally (nova scotia). They deeply care about success and have taken effective measures. ....but they still largely focus on deep cleaning rather than ventilation! And they emphasize the six foot rule in their contact tracing. I think the true explanation has to do with first impressions. People seem to have stuck on whatever they first heard in Feb-April. And it is harder for an institution to change its mind than for an individual. On masks, for example, I think the mantra of “masks protect others, they don’t protect you” has stuck even though other types of mask also filter incoming air. People just don’t update their beliefs too easily.
matthewmacleod 6y ago
Same thing with checking temperature at the door (it doesn't work because people can either never get a fever or be infectious before/after one). Attempts to reduce infection do not require 100% success in order to be effective at reducing the transmission rate. If we estimated that say 10% of patients experienced a fever, then a temperature check reduces the number of potential exposures.
- matz1 6y ago
  I'm fine with that if those extra measure are downside free. Except they are not, temperature check, mask, etc, incur extra cost, effort, inconvenience, annoyance, etc. The question is whether its worth it ? For me its obviously No
  - matthewmacleod 6y ago
    It’s not at all obvious and you are simply wrong on this point.
    - matz1 6y ago
      How is it wrong?
      - matthewmacleod 6y ago
        It is not at all obvious. I don’t know how to make it any clearer than that. It might be a theory worth investigating further; you have no basis for claiming that it is obvious, particularly because you lump multiple entirely different methods of mitigation together in a big “obviously not worth it” bucket when they self-evidently have such different characteristics that they cannot be treated in the same way.
        matz1 6y ago
        I said for me its obvious that the downside from the extras measure is greater than the downside from the virus itself. I didn't say/imply its obvious for you or any other people. Its a subjective comparison.
RHSeeger 6y ago
> Same thing with checking temperature at the door (it doesn't work because people can either never get a fever or be infectious before/after one). But it stops some cases, which is much better than no cases. > Even when it comes to masks we still have very few of the public using well fitting N95 and manufacturers mass-producing masks that barely even cover the side of people's faces (i.e. they don't work as well as they could, even for cloth!). Because the unfitted masks significantly reduce the amount of large particulates (ie, saliva) spread into the air, because they're caught by the mask which is directly in front of the mouth/nose. Arguing that seatbelts shouldn't be used because they don't prevent all injuries doesn't make much sense. Sure, we can do better, but it's not "COVID theater". It's rational, useful actions being taken to mitigate the impact of COVID.
- maxerickson 6y ago
  They aren't arguing that cloth masks are useless, rather that they should not be the standard. Following the car analogy, it's like not stopping at seat belts and adding airbags and traction control and so on. The improved measure (high quality masks) is inexpensive enough that it should be the standard.
- Someone1234 6y ago
  > Arguing that seatbelts shouldn't be used because they don't prevent all injuries doesn't make much sense. That's an incredibly disingenuous/uncharitable analogy for what I actually posted. A more accurate one would be: > Two-point Seatbelts cause massive internal injuries during an accident, why haven't we improved them/the guidelines in producing them after 40+ years? (see period from 1910 to 1960). Cloth masks were created in a rush to fill a void. Then a year passed. In that year nobody spent time/money improving/researching the design of cloth for better coverage nor did we increase the supply/availability of more effective filter material/fitment. It is fair to criticize the lack of improvement partially given the urgent public health crisis.
  - ivankolev 6y ago
    There are people working on it: https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/next-generation-masks-ppe-research-1.5894303 https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/next-generation-masks-ppe...
kumarvvr 6y ago
I find it infuriating that temperature check is still used everywhere. It is a known fact that temperature in a body may not show upto 6 days from onset of the virus. It creates a false sense of safety and is dangerous. And half of those non contact thermometers are useless. And moat of the personnel dint even know how to use them.
rattray 6y ago
Speaking as the creator of a high-quality mask (eye protection, good seal, >99.99% viral filtration efficiency filters), the lack of guidelines on what makes for a good mask have been flabbergasting. And what is there is incredibly lackluster - usually nothing very good on how to check your seal, or about eye protection, or about ensuring your filters are still any good on a disposable mask. I honestly can't believe that at this point in the pandemic, full-face respirators haven't been adapted to have exhale filters and widely distributed. I think our product (https://narwallmask.com https://narwallmask.com) is still the only such device, and I'm just some software engineer who thought to do something.
- MakeUsersWant 6y ago
  I found you while researching how to verify a mask is good as an end-user, because I cannot get a good seal out of any of the six types of FFP2-masks I have tried. On the one hand, I've always been on the lookout for something similar. On the other hand, there are a few showstoppers that keep me from buying. * Looks. Even if I can decide to look like the Reddit alien in a motorcycle helmet while everybody else is wearing an FFP2 mask, there is no way I can persuade my wife or kids. Would it be possible to make the exhaust pipe a bit more inconspicuous? E.g. inhale from the left cheek, exhale to the right cheek? * Filtration efficiency and trust. There is a reason the FFP2/FFP3 standards test with 0.3um sized particles - those are the most difficult to filter out. Your marketing copy talks about 0.4um and 0.1um, and the headline screems about 3um large virus particles, which are even less relevant. Even though the 0.4um numbers look close to FFP3, any official certification is missing. Is it safe to say that your product does not meet the FFP2 standards? Additionally, I'd love a mask that does not saturate out within minutes if I am panting (from chasing after kids). https://fixthemask.medium.com/the-standards-for-face-masks-in-relation-to-covid-19-bf050f50714 https://fixthemask.medium.com/the-standards-for-face-masks-i... * Sizing. How do I know which size I need? Maybe you could publish a guide like the CPAP mask manufacturers do. https://www.resmedshop.de/media/pdf/b1/e4/06/ResMed-AirFit-F30i-Anpassung-Maskenrahmen.pdf https://www.resmedshop.de/media/pdf/b1/e4/06/ResMed-AirFit-F... https://www.resmedshop.de/media/pdf/03/b0/57/ResMed-AirFit-F30i-Anpassung-Maskenkissen.pdf https://www.resmedshop.de/media/pdf/03/b0/57/ResMed-AirFit-F... * Facial expressions. If you could make the mouth covering transparent, it would show my mimics in a conversation. That could be a killer feature, especially for socializing (or salesy jobs). * Glasses and field of vision. * Sticker price shock. Most FFP2/KN95 masks are counterfeit and none have a good seal, so I might as well grab the ones for $0.17 a piece from aliexpress. But, I am already spending much more on other Covid safety measures. EDIT: Can you give me an accessible way to experience the mask's safety? So far, the best criterion I have come up with is if I can smell the smoke when I'm standing next to a smoker. In defense of that metric: There are absolutely no credible alternatives proposed on the internet. Mask fit used to be tested officially with noxious smoke. Cigarette smoke particles are pretty close in size to the virus-laden droplets. But in practise, an FFP2 mask passes this test only if I tape over all of its edges with a band-aid, and my skin won't tolerate that day-in day-out.
AstralStorm 6y ago
Funny thing, the most effective measure we found in addition to masks is the careful installation of plexiglass or similar panes similar to face shields, at cash registers and other public facing counters. Next, hand disinfectant or gloves.

darkerside 6y ago

They're continuing to say we shouldn't wear N95 masks, to save them for healthcare workers. This has always seemed to me like a short-sighted and reactive approach, instead of proactively starving the supply of infected people by masking up everybody.

bluGill 6y ago
the problem is N95 masks are not available. Hospitals are still rationing them to doctors who are dealing with COVID patients. That is those with the greatest need/risk cannot get a N95 mask. There is some supply coming online, but it is slow. Note that KF94 and KN95 masks are somewhat available, I'd recommend my friends use them, but not my friends' friends as supply isn't enough to cover the friends of my friends. These are the Korea and Chinese equivalent to N95, perhaps not as good, but still a lot better. There is also a European standard, but I haven't seen it anywhere in the US.
- gwittel 6y ago
  IIRC KF94 were designed as an easier to make general population mask in event of a pandemic (after SARS etc). It wasn’t meant to match N95 (or Korea’s equivalent), but to get close. Ideally the US would have an equivalent, or have encouraged manufacture of one long ago, but we all know how that went.
- 93po 6y ago
  Apparently KN95 isn't as good for preventing liquid transmission (I assume this is important in surgeries) but KN95 is just as good if not a little better protection against aerosoled covid.
ashtonkem 6y ago
The fact that the DPA wasn’t invoked to spin up N95 mask production early last year has a real “crimes against humanity” feel to it.
- account42 6y ago
  Yeah, Taiwan got that right - they had the military help with mask production even before any other country considered that this might spread beyond China.

graeme 6y ago

I don’t think that’s all of it. I live in a region that eliminate the virus locally (nova scotia). They deeply care about success and have taken effective measures. ....but they still largely focus on deep cleaning rather than ventilation! And they emphasize the six foot rule in their contact tracing. I think the true explanation has to do with first impressions. People seem to have stuck on whatever they first heard in Feb-April. And it is harder for an institution to change its mind than for an individual. On masks, for example, I think the mantra of “masks protect others, they don’t protect you” has stuck even though other types of mask also filter incoming air. People just don’t update their beliefs too easily.

matthewmacleod 6y ago

Same thing with checking temperature at the door (it doesn't work because people can either never get a fever or be infectious before/after one). Attempts to reduce infection do not require 100% success in order to be effective at reducing the transmission rate. If we estimated that say 10% of patients experienced a fever, then a temperature check reduces the number of potential exposures.

matz1 6y ago
I'm fine with that if those extra measure are downside free. Except they are not, temperature check, mask, etc, incur extra cost, effort, inconvenience, annoyance, etc. The question is whether its worth it ? For me its obviously No
- matthewmacleod 6y ago
  It’s not at all obvious and you are simply wrong on this point.
  - matz1 6y ago
    How is it wrong?
    - matthewmacleod 6y ago
      It is not at all obvious. I don’t know how to make it any clearer than that. It might be a theory worth investigating further; you have no basis for claiming that it is obvious, particularly because you lump multiple entirely different methods of mitigation together in a big “obviously not worth it” bucket when they self-evidently have such different characteristics that they cannot be treated in the same way.
      - matz1 6y ago
        I said for me its obvious that the downside from the extras measure is greater than the downside from the virus itself. I didn't say/imply its obvious for you or any other people. Its a subjective comparison.

RHSeeger 6y ago

> Same thing with checking temperature at the door (it doesn't work because people can either never get a fever or be infectious before/after one). But it stops some cases, which is much better than no cases. > Even when it comes to masks we still have very few of the public using well fitting N95 and manufacturers mass-producing masks that barely even cover the side of people's faces (i.e. they don't work as well as they could, even for cloth!). Because the unfitted masks significantly reduce the amount of large particulates (ie, saliva) spread into the air, because they're caught by the mask which is directly in front of the mouth/nose. Arguing that seatbelts shouldn't be used because they don't prevent all injuries doesn't make much sense. Sure, we can do better, but it's not "COVID theater". It's rational, useful actions being taken to mitigate the impact of COVID.

maxerickson 6y ago
They aren't arguing that cloth masks are useless, rather that they should not be the standard. Following the car analogy, it's like not stopping at seat belts and adding airbags and traction control and so on. The improved measure (high quality masks) is inexpensive enough that it should be the standard.
Someone1234 6y ago
> Arguing that seatbelts shouldn't be used because they don't prevent all injuries doesn't make much sense. That's an incredibly disingenuous/uncharitable analogy for what I actually posted. A more accurate one would be: > Two-point Seatbelts cause massive internal injuries during an accident, why haven't we improved them/the guidelines in producing them after 40+ years? (see period from 1910 to 1960). Cloth masks were created in a rush to fill a void. Then a year passed. In that year nobody spent time/money improving/researching the design of cloth for better coverage nor did we increase the supply/availability of more effective filter material/fitment. It is fair to criticize the lack of improvement partially given the urgent public health crisis.
- ivankolev 6y ago
  There are people working on it: https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/next-generation-masks-ppe-research-1.5894303 https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/next-generation-masks-ppe...

kumarvvr 6y ago

I find it infuriating that temperature check is still used everywhere. It is a known fact that temperature in a body may not show upto 6 days from onset of the virus. It creates a false sense of safety and is dangerous. And half of those non contact thermometers are useless. And moat of the personnel dint even know how to use them.

rattray 6y ago

Speaking as the creator of a high-quality mask (eye protection, good seal, >99.99% viral filtration efficiency filters), the lack of guidelines on what makes for a good mask have been flabbergasting. And what is there is incredibly lackluster - usually nothing very good on how to check your seal, or about eye protection, or about ensuring your filters are still any good on a disposable mask. I honestly can't believe that at this point in the pandemic, full-face respirators haven't been adapted to have exhale filters and widely distributed. I think our product (https://narwallmask.com https://narwallmask.com) is still the only such device, and I'm just some software engineer who thought to do something.

MakeUsersWant 6y ago
I found you while researching how to verify a mask is good as an end-user, because I cannot get a good seal out of any of the six types of FFP2-masks I have tried. On the one hand, I've always been on the lookout for something similar. On the other hand, there are a few showstoppers that keep me from buying. * Looks. Even if I can decide to look like the Reddit alien in a motorcycle helmet while everybody else is wearing an FFP2 mask, there is no way I can persuade my wife or kids. Would it be possible to make the exhaust pipe a bit more inconspicuous? E.g. inhale from the left cheek, exhale to the right cheek? * Filtration efficiency and trust. There is a reason the FFP2/FFP3 standards test with 0.3um sized particles - those are the most difficult to filter out. Your marketing copy talks about 0.4um and 0.1um, and the headline screems about 3um large virus particles, which are even less relevant. Even though the 0.4um numbers look close to FFP3, any official certification is missing. Is it safe to say that your product does not meet the FFP2 standards? Additionally, I'd love a mask that does not saturate out within minutes if I am panting (from chasing after kids). https://fixthemask.medium.com/the-standards-for-face-masks-in-relation-to-covid-19-bf050f50714 https://fixthemask.medium.com/the-standards-for-face-masks-i... * Sizing. How do I know which size I need? Maybe you could publish a guide like the CPAP mask manufacturers do. https://www.resmedshop.de/media/pdf/b1/e4/06/ResMed-AirFit-F30i-Anpassung-Maskenrahmen.pdf https://www.resmedshop.de/media/pdf/b1/e4/06/ResMed-AirFit-F... https://www.resmedshop.de/media/pdf/03/b0/57/ResMed-AirFit-F30i-Anpassung-Maskenkissen.pdf https://www.resmedshop.de/media/pdf/03/b0/57/ResMed-AirFit-F... * Facial expressions. If you could make the mouth covering transparent, it would show my mimics in a conversation. That could be a killer feature, especially for socializing (or salesy jobs). * Glasses and field of vision. * Sticker price shock. Most FFP2/KN95 masks are counterfeit and none have a good seal, so I might as well grab the ones for $0.17 a piece from aliexpress. But, I am already spending much more on other Covid safety measures. EDIT: Can you give me an accessible way to experience the mask's safety? So far, the best criterion I have come up with is if I can smell the smoke when I'm standing next to a smoker. In defense of that metric: There are absolutely no credible alternatives proposed on the internet. Mask fit used to be tested officially with noxious smoke. Cigarette smoke particles are pretty close in size to the virus-laden droplets. But in practise, an FFP2 mask passes this test only if I tape over all of its edges with a band-aid, and my skin won't tolerate that day-in day-out.

AstralStorm 6y ago

Funny thing, the most effective measure we found in addition to masks is the careful installation of plexiglass or similar panes similar to face shields, at cash registers and other public facing counters. Next, hand disinfectant or gloves.