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The better question is why aren’t we ventilating. It is justifiable to clean high contact surfaces as a precaution. But this is like optimizing the last 2%. Th
by graeme 6y ago
The better question is why aren’t we ventilating. It is justifiable to clean high contact surfaces as a precaution.
But this is like optimizing the last 2%. The most important thing other than masks and distancing would be opening windows, installing air purifiers that kill viruses, and setting hvac’s to bring in outside air. Co2 meters could be used to gauge effectiveness.
One year in official guidelines in most cases don’t mention ventilation and in some workplaces people are forbidden from ventilating because it isn’t in the guidelines.
We’d be a little chilly or a little warm, but the virus would spread much less readily.
- the-dude 6y agoIn schools for that matter.
- etothepii 6y agoMy friend made a website about it, https://openyourdamnwindows.com https://openyourdamnwindows.com
- graeme 6y agoGreat site, thanks!
- ketamine__ 6y agoI applaud your friend.
- account42 6y ago> It should be too-cold inside. If the heating can cope in winter, then the ventilation is inadequate. Yeah, no thanks.
- Someone1234 6y agoBecause most of it was "COVID theater" rather than intended to actually make people safer, the public cannot see the [likely more effective] things you're suggesting. Same thing with checking temperature at the door (it doesn't work because people can either never get a fever or be infectious before/after one). Even when it comes to masks we still have very few of the public using well fitting N95 and manufacturers mass-producing masks that barely even cover the side of people's faces (i.e. they don't work as well as they could, even for cloth!). This was totally forgivable in the early days since "better than nothing" masks, but it has been almost a year and effective mask/mask usage still isn't being promoted nor guidelines for producing high quality masks exists.
- darkerside 6y agoThey're continuing to say we shouldn't wear N95 masks, to save them for healthcare workers. This has always seemed to me like a short-sighted and reactive approach, instead of proactively starving the supply of infected people by masking up everybody.
- bluGill 6y agothe problem is N95 masks are not available. Hospitals are still rationing them to doctors who are dealing with COVID patients. That is those with the greatest need/risk cannot get a N95 mask. There is some supply coming online, but it is slow. Note that KF94 and KN95 masks are somewhat available, I'd recommend my friends use them, but not my friends' friends as supply isn't enough to cover the friends of my friends. These are the Korea and Chinese equivalent to N95, perhaps not as good, but still a lot better. There is also a European standard, but I haven't seen it anywhere in the US.
- gwittel 6y agoIIRC KF94 were designed as an easier to make general population mask in event of a pandemic (after SARS etc). It wasn’t meant to match N95 (or Korea’s equivalent), but to get close. Ideally the US would have an equivalent, or have encouraged manufacture of one long ago, but we all know how that went.
- 93po 6y agoApparently KN95 isn't as good for preventing liquid transmission (I assume this is important in surgeries) but KN95 is just as good if not a little better protection against aerosoled covid.
- ashtonkem 6y agoThe fact that the DPA wasn’t invoked to spin up N95 mask production early last year has a real “crimes against humanity” feel to it.
- 6y ago
- mschuster91 6y ago> The better question is why aren’t we ventilating Industrial places: they have AC but unfortunately the way most if not all of these are built they're germ spreaders rather than germ catchers. Retrofitting or modifying existing installations is expensive and the tradespeople doing this kind of job have been in high demand everywhere since years now. Schools: same as above - ACs or ventilation in schools exist mostly in new buildings which have had energy efficiency requirements respected during design, retrofitting is often impossible (e.g. due to low room heights), and the "there are no tradespeople" argument from above also applies here, with the added difficulty that government jobs pay pennies compared to what industry puts up. To make stuff worse: many school buildings have outright broken windows - in Cologne / Germany for example one in five schools has windows that don't open, sometimes for many years (https://www.ksta.de/koeln/keine-lueftung-moeglich-trotz-corona-defekte-fenster-an-jeder-fuenften-schule-in-koeln-37162510?cb=1612272877479 https://www.ksta.de/koeln/keine-lueftung-moeglich-trotz-coro...).
- curryst 6y agoWindows not opening might be intentional. I've worked in a couple of tall buildings where the windows don't open very far. Someone told me it was so people can't jump out, though I always suspected it was so you couldn't mess up the temperature on the floor.
- ketamine__ 6y agoDoD study suggests it’s very hard to contract COVID-19 on an airplane https://federalnewsnetwork.com/dod-reporters-notebook-jared-serbu/2020/10/dod-study-suggests-its-very-hard-to-contract-covid-19-on-an-airplane/amp/ https://federalnewsnetwork.com/dod-reporters-notebook-jared-...
- joosters 6y agoAnd yet, people catch covid on planes. Even the article you cite explains the flaws in the research
- graeme 6y agoNot very many relative to the number of people on planes. Co2 levels tend to be low on airplanes, indicating good ventilation.
- joosters 6y agoNot very many relative to the number of people on planes What does that even mean? Of course the number of people who catch covid on a flight is relative to the number of people on planes. If fewer people fly, fewer people will catch covid, and vv - I think we can all agree on that. A better comparison is between how many will people catch covid on a flight compared to how many would catch it if they didn't fly at all. How many is not many? 1%? 2%?
- graeme 6y agoWhat I mean is there have been vanishingly few transmissions linked to airplanes. Those that have occurred to be on very long haul flights.
- IMTDb 6y agoI read it as: Boeing biggest client telling that Boeing planes are safe to operate when Boeing is in deep financial trouble. Credits I give to this study: none.
- gameswithgo 6y agoThere are a lot of things we know would help but are hard to do. Its easy to have employees wipe surfaces at your store, but massively expensive to install some kind of new upward pulling powerful ventillation system. its easy for a city to close a park down, but hard for a city to tell every bar and restaurant to go out of business, or to pay them to survive while closed.
- bluGill 6y agoBut if we put a good air purifier on each table at a bar/restaurant would that reduce spread enough that people can go out to eat? It doesn't have to be perfect, just statistically enough better that we don't have to lock down quite as hard. Nobody has done an analysis of this that I can tell even though it is obvious. It seems like a HEPA air filter next to the salt shaker (in the middle of the table so you are generally breathing in its direction) could get a useful fraction of the virus. Then some larger room filters, maybe an upper room UV-C light.... If restaurants are told close or install the above system they will install that system. I know restaurants near me installed tents in the summer which may not have worked much better than the above.
- numpad0 6y ago> air purifiers that kill viruses, I'm hoping that this is unique to my country but a lot of such "kills virus" products I've seen are a)diluted bleach, or b)ozone generator, or c)UV lamps, none of which is safe near a person and none of which is effective at its job. It was my impression that there's no need to consult 4chan to assess the cost and benefit associated with inhaling bleach.
- _n_b_ 6y agoAir purifiers with HEPA filters can effectively trap the virus in the filter [1]. Air purifiers with HEPA filters aren't terribly expensive and DIY options are possible (e.g., [2]) although I have also read that this setup is not as efficient at filtering as a purpose-built air filter [3] but also probably much better than nothing. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/blog/can-hepa-air-purifiers-capture-coronavirus/ https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/blog/can-hepa-air-purifie... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch/kH5APw_SLUU https://www.youtube.com/watch/kH5APw_SLUU [3] https://www.wired.com/story/could-a-janky-jury-rigged-air-purifier-help-fight-covid-19/ https://www.wired.com/story/could-a-janky-jury-rigged-air-pu...
- swebs 6y agoI don't see the downside of UV sanitizers if they're out of sight deep in the ductwork.
- ashtonkem 6y agoWorse, we seem to be stuck on the idea that being “outside” is the safe thing, so restaurants are now beginning to build “outside” seating with plywood walls and plexiglass windows. Which is to say that they’re building half-assed temporary buildings with no ventilation. We would’ve been far better off as a society if we’d kept inside dining and improved our HVAC regulations for large gathering areas. It probably would permanently suppress common cold & flu numbers too, since those are also respiratory in nature.