6 ms·

So how do you prevent mediocricy because every employee is afraid of failing because of the draconian consequences?

simonh 6y ago
Why are you assuming the consequences should be draconian? There might not even need to be any consequences in any given case, but there should be an appropriate and fair approach to rewards and possible consequences.
- arkitaip 6y ago
  Because grand parents mentioned firing people...
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - Xelbair 6y ago
    Well to be fair Stadia was an idiotic project that was doomed to fail due to physical constraints(getting sub 80ms latency, and that's VERY generous for input latency that people are used to), which are unsolvable. No ML does not fix that, because if game predicts your inputs are you even playing it, not to mention the frustration when it mispredicts. That's the sort of thing you have engineers for - so you don't sink money in something so idiotic. Not to mention that they picked the worst possible business model: pay price for title and pay a subscription at once. The one who greenlit it, and proposed it should be under scrutiny.
    - fsloth 6y ago
      Disagree very strongly that it would be idiotic. Nvidia's GeForce go is under the same physical constraints and Cyberpunk 2077 is very playable there (so I can play it on my IPad Pro using XBox bluetooth controller...) . There are lot's games where brief latency is not a problem. I agree for some games latency is a dealbreaker but hardly for all.
      - Mindwipe 6y ago
        GeForce go also took down almost all of it's titles due to licensing issues where Nvidia were too afraid to upset their partners, which shows there is no business here and they should never have invested in the first place. But at least Nvidia's initial conceit was that it would piggy back on someone else's content ecosystem rather than building their own - building your own gaming content ecosystem is a) incredibly hard b) a fifteen year plus project and c) costs a hundred billion dollars. Google weren't willing to do those but launched a project that needed them.
    - hamilyon2 6y ago
      Do you people realise the there are whole generes of games,where beautiful graphics is a serious advantage, but low latency is not? Like, 600 ms latency is still 100% acceptable and enjoyable. And not only graphics. Turn-based strategy genre can also benefit from gigantic ram and cpu resources - all to make ai smarter, more enjoyable to beat the ever. I think stadia and cloud gaming in general is a gold mine. But it is a different platform, games should be optimized for it.
      - meheleventyone 6y ago
        You don’t need to stream video to run AI in the cloud for a game. Strangely given the existence of server infrastructure based games for decades we’ve never seen it. Maybe the idea isn’t that amazing after all?
        hamilyon2 6y ago
        That is quite true, the technology was here and nobody used it. That proves nothing, though. You can apply the same logic to anything new. We had VR headsets before HL:Alyx and anyone could say "VR has no good games, idea is toast".
        meheleventyone 6y ago
        It proves quite a lot about the hype around cloud native and the things it enables. And there were great VR games before HL:Alyx and Alyx is no killer app.
      - Xelbair 6y ago
        Oh there are games where input latency does not matter. You can usually run them on toaster too. You can make amazing AI that beats humans 100% of time pretty easily, the hard part is making it challenging enough for people to have chance to beat it... It also just needs game state, without all the cruft of stadia(visual side, sounds, graphics, inputs etc). Also did google partner with any of developers of such games? Did they develop their own? or even formed any form of partnership for them? No. They went for action titles, or titles with great graphics. It was disaster from business perspective no matter how you look at it. Do not expect game developers to just bend over for google just because they release a new platform(and where are doubts about sustainability and quality of that platform from the beginning).
    - throwawayzRUU6f 6y ago
      The engineering side did a great job on a complex technical task. It's satisfactory, kind of works, not great, not terrible. What boggles the mind is that nobody is able to formulate who is Stadia even meant for. Who are the target customers? Draw a Venn diagram of people who: - care about gaming - are OK paying full price for their games - are OK paying 10 euros a month subscription - are OK buying an extra controller - have top-notch, 100% reliable internet connection - are willing to accept occasional technical glitches - are OK with Google's mercurial approach to product lifecycles but do not: - have a computer - have a console - have a Steam library - mod their games - subscribe to Nvidia's cloud gaming service Just giving some off-hand estimates, my estimate is 0.00015% of the world's population meets these criteria. The only reasonable business model must be "people will want to try it out and then forget to cancel their subscription".
      - w0utert 6y ago
        Not only that, but also: what's the business model behind Stadia? Like how do they expect to ever make money off of it? Right now they are still giving away the product for free if you just use 1080p, which the vast majority of their target audience will be perfectly happy with, if you care about 4K and 120hz you probably want to have optimal latency as well and just get a local box anyway. So where do they expect the money to make the service profitable will come from? I've said the same thing so, so many times from even back when there was OnLive. Streaming games to paying customers is an interesting idea and some people will love it, but I just fail to see the business model. If you can pick up a cheap second hand console for less than 1 year of subscription service, who are the people who are going to keep paying for your service because they 'just want to play a game every now and then'? You have to build and maintain servers all around the world to make the service work, and you expect people who are not really into gaming enough to just buy a $400 console once every ~5 years, who just want to play every now and then, to be willing to spend enough on your service to cover the cost? It boggles the mind how much money has been going into these kinds of services without any one of them ever seeming to have an obvious and solid long-term business plan...
      - PicassoCTs 6y ago
        Stadia could be a way into gaming for crowds who cant afford top-notch machines.. which is 5/6 of the population on this planet.
    - OOPMan 6y ago
      You never heard of rollback netcode?
      - imtringued 6y ago
        Why would anyone want this in a singleplayer experience? Or rather, why would anyone want two layers of rollback on their multiplayer experience?
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
      There are TVs with more than 100ms of latency, and there are strategies using state rollback and replay that can further reduce the impact of the latency besides. Latency isn't Stadia's hardest problem.
      - Xelbair 6y ago
        It is, as it is input latency stacked on top of display latency, stacked on top of internet latency! Not to mention that 100ms of latency in TVs is constant usually, it isn't the case with network latency.
        hiptobecubic 6y ago
        I play games on stadia, including shooters, and latency is not an issue. Latency is the reason you can't launch a Stadia competitor on AWS, but Google has a lot of infrastructure to build on. The latency issue is well handled at this point. The problem with stadia for me is that gaming platforms are social networks and Stadia is relatively small. No one else I know has Stadia and for many games you can't even expect to find randos willing to play at all. Embr and GetPacked are basically useless.
heavenlyblue 6y ago
How do you prevent mediocrity when every employee is nice, accepting of failure of others but absolutely useless?

Why are you assuming the consequences should be draconian? There might not even need to be any consequences in any given case, but there should be an appropriate and fair approach to rewards and possible consequences.

arkitaip 6y ago
Because grand parents mentioned firing people...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Xelbair 6y ago
  Well to be fair Stadia was an idiotic project that was doomed to fail due to physical constraints(getting sub 80ms latency, and that's VERY generous for input latency that people are used to), which are unsolvable. No ML does not fix that, because if game predicts your inputs are you even playing it, not to mention the frustration when it mispredicts. That's the sort of thing you have engineers for - so you don't sink money in something so idiotic. Not to mention that they picked the worst possible business model: pay price for title and pay a subscription at once. The one who greenlit it, and proposed it should be under scrutiny.
  - fsloth 6y ago
    Disagree very strongly that it would be idiotic. Nvidia's GeForce go is under the same physical constraints and Cyberpunk 2077 is very playable there (so I can play it on my IPad Pro using XBox bluetooth controller...) . There are lot's games where brief latency is not a problem. I agree for some games latency is a dealbreaker but hardly for all.
    - Mindwipe 6y ago
      GeForce go also took down almost all of it's titles due to licensing issues where Nvidia were too afraid to upset their partners, which shows there is no business here and they should never have invested in the first place. But at least Nvidia's initial conceit was that it would piggy back on someone else's content ecosystem rather than building their own - building your own gaming content ecosystem is a) incredibly hard b) a fifteen year plus project and c) costs a hundred billion dollars. Google weren't willing to do those but launched a project that needed them.
  - hamilyon2 6y ago
    Do you people realise the there are whole generes of games,where beautiful graphics is a serious advantage, but low latency is not? Like, 600 ms latency is still 100% acceptable and enjoyable. And not only graphics. Turn-based strategy genre can also benefit from gigantic ram and cpu resources - all to make ai smarter, more enjoyable to beat the ever. I think stadia and cloud gaming in general is a gold mine. But it is a different platform, games should be optimized for it.
    - meheleventyone 6y ago
      You don’t need to stream video to run AI in the cloud for a game. Strangely given the existence of server infrastructure based games for decades we’ve never seen it. Maybe the idea isn’t that amazing after all?
      - hamilyon2 6y ago
        That is quite true, the technology was here and nobody used it. That proves nothing, though. You can apply the same logic to anything new. We had VR headsets before HL:Alyx and anyone could say "VR has no good games, idea is toast".
        meheleventyone 6y ago
        It proves quite a lot about the hype around cloud native and the things it enables. And there were great VR games before HL:Alyx and Alyx is no killer app.
    - Xelbair 6y ago
      Oh there are games where input latency does not matter. You can usually run them on toaster too. You can make amazing AI that beats humans 100% of time pretty easily, the hard part is making it challenging enough for people to have chance to beat it... It also just needs game state, without all the cruft of stadia(visual side, sounds, graphics, inputs etc). Also did google partner with any of developers of such games? Did they develop their own? or even formed any form of partnership for them? No. They went for action titles, or titles with great graphics. It was disaster from business perspective no matter how you look at it. Do not expect game developers to just bend over for google just because they release a new platform(and where are doubts about sustainability and quality of that platform from the beginning).
  - throwawayzRUU6f 6y ago
    The engineering side did a great job on a complex technical task. It's satisfactory, kind of works, not great, not terrible. What boggles the mind is that nobody is able to formulate who is Stadia even meant for. Who are the target customers? Draw a Venn diagram of people who: - care about gaming - are OK paying full price for their games - are OK paying 10 euros a month subscription - are OK buying an extra controller - have top-notch, 100% reliable internet connection - are willing to accept occasional technical glitches - are OK with Google's mercurial approach to product lifecycles but do not: - have a computer - have a console - have a Steam library - mod their games - subscribe to Nvidia's cloud gaming service Just giving some off-hand estimates, my estimate is 0.00015% of the world's population meets these criteria. The only reasonable business model must be "people will want to try it out and then forget to cancel their subscription".
    - w0utert 6y ago
      Not only that, but also: what's the business model behind Stadia? Like how do they expect to ever make money off of it? Right now they are still giving away the product for free if you just use 1080p, which the vast majority of their target audience will be perfectly happy with, if you care about 4K and 120hz you probably want to have optimal latency as well and just get a local box anyway. So where do they expect the money to make the service profitable will come from? I've said the same thing so, so many times from even back when there was OnLive. Streaming games to paying customers is an interesting idea and some people will love it, but I just fail to see the business model. If you can pick up a cheap second hand console for less than 1 year of subscription service, who are the people who are going to keep paying for your service because they 'just want to play a game every now and then'? You have to build and maintain servers all around the world to make the service work, and you expect people who are not really into gaming enough to just buy a $400 console once every ~5 years, who just want to play every now and then, to be willing to spend enough on your service to cover the cost? It boggles the mind how much money has been going into these kinds of services without any one of them ever seeming to have an obvious and solid long-term business plan...
    - PicassoCTs 6y ago
      Stadia could be a way into gaming for crowds who cant afford top-notch machines.. which is 5/6 of the population on this planet.
  - OOPMan 6y ago
    You never heard of rollback netcode?
    - imtringued 6y ago
      Why would anyone want this in a singleplayer experience? Or rather, why would anyone want two layers of rollback on their multiplayer experience?
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    There are TVs with more than 100ms of latency, and there are strategies using state rollback and replay that can further reduce the impact of the latency besides. Latency isn't Stadia's hardest problem.
    - Xelbair 6y ago
      It is, as it is input latency stacked on top of display latency, stacked on top of internet latency! Not to mention that 100ms of latency in TVs is constant usually, it isn't the case with network latency.
      - hiptobecubic 6y ago
        I play games on stadia, including shooters, and latency is not an issue. Latency is the reason you can't launch a Stadia competitor on AWS, but Google has a lot of infrastructure to build on. The latency issue is well handled at this point. The problem with stadia for me is that gaming platforms are social networks and Stadia is relatively small. No one else I know has Stadia and for many games you can't even expect to find randos willing to play at all. Embr and GetPacked are basically useless.

heavenlyblue 6y ago

How do you prevent mediocrity when every employee is nice, accepting of failure of others but absolutely useless?