11 ms·
Scientists fear pandemic's 'hyper hygiene' could have long-term health impacts
- Loughla 6y agoDoes anyone have a link to the actual paper cited? There's nothing in the article indicating a title or link.
- tingletech 6y agoThe Ottawa Citizen said the paper was published in "the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Science in the U.S." and listed one of the authors as "Brett Finlay" https://www.pnas.org/content/118/6/e2010217118 https://www.pnas.org/content/118/6/e2010217118 It has a heading "PERSPECTIVE" -- is that like an op-ed for science? Title: The hygiene hypothesis, the COVID pandemic, and consequences for the human microbiome
- KineticLensman 6y ago> It has a heading "PERSPECTIVE" -- is that like an op-ed for science? It depends on the publication, but may often have much more rigour than the short prose format typical in a traditional newspaper op-ed. For example it could be a multi-author piece with extensive references and figures, and is a 'perspective' in the sense that it presents an academic summary of some topic for non-specialists.
- faitswulff 6y agoI believe it's this: https://www.pnas.org/content/118/6/e2010217118 https://www.pnas.org/content/118/6/e2010217118
- TACIXAT 6y agoFound by searching the author's name on Google Scholar. https://www.pnas.org/content/118/6/e2010217118.short https://www.pnas.org/content/118/6/e2010217118.short
- mensetmanusman 6y agoIt will probably work itself out in the long term though and people will return to nominal levels of risk tolerance. E.g. China has reopened wet markets even though we now know it is hugely dangerous to the world. Sigh
- faitswulff 6y ago"Wet markets" are just farmers' markets.
- faitswulff 6y agoThere's a difference between being exposed to dirt and being exposed to viral diseases, though. Playing outside in the leaves will likely trigger healthy immune responses. Contracting COVID-19 may lead to long term health issues.
- btilly 6y agoOne of the known things is that babies who get seriously sick somewhere in their first year have a better immune system for life. So yes, failing to be exposed to viral diseases can be bad for you.
- giantg2 6y agoIt's really a balance though. Some of those viral diseases could have permanent consequences that outweigh the benefit of a stronger immune system. For example, Polio could leave you crippled, or Mumps could leave a boy with sterility. Do you have a link to the data for the claim about it being a serious illness that causes a better immune system? My understanding has been that exposure to a variety of pathogens and minor illnesses would be sufficient.
- croes 6y agoAre you sure you aren't falling for survivor bias?
- btilly 6y agoVery sure. The fatality rate is negligible and the boost is significant. See https://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/12/06/daycare.kids/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/12/06/daycare.kids/index.htm... for a random news article reporting on a similar result only with kids getting sick in daycare. Being exposed to diseases early builds immunity later.
- AbrahamParangi 6y agoMorbid but this sounds like burn-in (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn-in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn-in) All complex systems, us included, have bathtub curves (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve)
- magnio 6y agoYet another news article that doesn't link the damn paper. "The hygiene hypothesis, the COVID pandemic, and consequences for the human microbiome" > This pandemic intersects with a decades-long decline in microbial diversity and ancestral microbes due to hygiene, antibiotics, and urban living (the hygiene hypothesis). High-risk groups succumbing to COVID-19 include those with preexisting conditions, such as diabetes and obesity, which are also associated with microbiome abnormalities. Current pandemic control measures and practices will have broad, uneven, and potentially long-term effects for the human microbiome across the planet, given the implementation of physical separation, extensive hygiene, travel barriers, and other measures that influence overall microbial loss and inability for reinoculation. Although much remains uncertain or unknown about the virus and its consequences, implementing pandemic control practices could significantly affect the microbiome. https://www.pnas.org/content/118/6/e2010217118 https://www.pnas.org/content/118/6/e2010217118
- mbg721 6y agoIt's interesting to me that urban living would be included in the hygiene hypothesis. Intuitively, I would expect all the extra contact and travel to increase exposure to microbes, compared to "everyone spends most of their time on their own farm".
- Robotbeat 6y agoDifferent kind of microbes. Human communicable diseases in cities, dirt microbes in farms.
- mc32 6y agoSomeone put forth the example of polio. It was endemic but not epidemic till the rise of cities facilitated transmission.
- cperciva 6y agoPolio is a bit more complicated than that. It's usually harmless in infants; it became a major public health concern only when hygiene resulted in it being contracted later. Epstein-Barr is similar, causing mononucleosis in teenagers but only mild symptoms in children.
- Havoc 6y agoEveryone eat a spoon full of dirt and call it a day
- ajross 6y agoNot to throw too much water on the joke, but in fact modern urban dirt has a distinctly different microbiome than the earth we'd have traditionally lived on. Everything coevolves.
- faitswulff 6y agoUrban dirt can also have lead in it, which is something you have to test for if you’re raising egg-laying chickens. Otherwise it ends up in the eggs.
- sjg007 6y agoGet a dog, seriously. They help expose kids to germs.
- lucioperca 6y agoWe could all lick our phone-screen to counter that problem.
- rossdavidh 6y agoWait, there are people who don't lick their phone-screen?
- danaliv 6y agoOh, no need--all the germs there came from your fingers, which you're already touching your face with.
- lucioperca 6y agoBut the phone convenietly collects them through the day.
- hyko 6y agoLet’s prove the hygiene hypothesis first, before using that “knowledge” to investigate other problems.
- ThePowerOfDirge 6y agoSo many armchair scientists in this thread taking the hygiene hypothesis as gospel here.
- TrispusAttucks 6y agohttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis
- ok123456 6y agoThe link between obesity and the western diet is stronger than the link between obesity and hand sanitizer.
- npsimons 6y agoThat stuck out to me too: they imply obesity and diabetes are some sort of symptom of a diminished immune system, when it can simply be explained by portion size inflation. To add insult to injury, obesity will cause an inflammation response, hampering immune systems. It's also possible obesity could be linked to overall weakened immune systems.
- thamer 6y agoThe pandemic has also had a severe impact on the mental health of many people. Lockdowns and their consequences have been well-covered, but there also seems to be some effect on people (kids especially) that could be pre-disposed to obsessive-compulsive behaviors, with the constant stress of this looming threat causing children to start obsessively washing their hands and becoming extremely cautious not to get infected. We will be dealing with the fallback long after life returns to "normal".
- leesalminen 6y agoAt a meta level, I’ve begun wondering if we as a society could plausibly “return to normal”. It seems to me that time only moves forward. We can’t un-experience the pandemic. It’ll be with us for a long, long time.
- rolph 6y agonon paywall versions here : abstract: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27471720/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27471720/ or full text here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4918254/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4918254/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4918254/pdf/itt https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4918254/pdf/itt... [PDF] i turned my browser setting to no style for page rendering and i got breadcrumbs
- irrational 6y agoOn the other hand, my kids are spending a ton more time playing in the dirt of the backyard than they did pre-COVID when they would hang out at friends houses. That is probably having a positive effect?
- illustriousbear 6y agoIs it just me or are a lot of people going overboard with hand sanitizer? I find it odd to see people applying hand sanitizer even though they've just left home and are visiting one place. Then you see people constantly applying hand sanitizer when entering shopping complexes and visiting various stores. Personally, I try to limit my use of hand sanitizer because I have sensitive skin. Also I'm in Australia where we don't have major outbreaks right now.