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Yes, I am always shocked to hear how "non-racist" Germany is when I have friends who failed to climb the corporate ladder their because of their Greek last name

Yes, I am always shocked to hear how "non-racist" Germany is when I have friends who failed to climb the corporate ladder their because of their Greek last name, as they were explicitly told by their coworkers. In America, they are doing well now as an executive at a F500.

cameldrv 6y ago
Having lived in Germany for a few years, I was pretty surprised by the level of casual racism. The level of casual anti-semitism in Poland was even more surprising.
- piokoch 6y ago
  Interesting. I've checked [1] and it seems that number of antisemitic incidents in Poland is rather low (for instance is smaller than in Sweden, which has much smaller population), not to mention France, where number of incidents was 5 times bigger than in Poland. I am curious what is source of you information about Polish antisemitism. [1] https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2020/antisemitism-overview-2009-2019 https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2020/antisemitism-overv...
  - vaidhy 6y ago
    I am really curious how a report like this can capture casual racism or antisemitism. When I was working in Switzerland a long time ago, one of the comments I heard frequently is that I am not like other Indians - I dress well, speak well and I am tall. I would consider it as a "racist" comment, but not something that would get reported. One of my other friends from India felt similar, if he is not dressed in a suit, he would be treated differently. I doubt he would report it either. You are different and will be treated differently. Jariel made a similar point above - you are constantly aware that it is not your country. I do not feel the same in US.
    - rayiner 6y ago
      > When I was working in Switzerland a long time ago, one of the comments I heard frequently is that I am not like other Indians - I dress well, speak well and I am tall. I would consider it as a "racist" comment, but not something that would get reported. Yikes. Very Joe Biden: https://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/31/biden.obama/ https://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/31/biden.obama/ > "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," Biden said. "I mean, that's a storybook, man." I've never gotten a comment like that as a South Asian (Bangladesh) in the United States.
      - selimthegrim 6y ago
        My own ex-boss (Bangladeshi immigrant from Dhaka) told me (Pakistani-American born here) when I asked him for a proper W2 in order to lease my car as opposed to a handwritten one that "suspicion runs in your veins like everyone else from the subcontinent" (I managed to extract it from the HR person)
        rayiner 6y ago
        Lol!
        selimthegrim 6y ago
        Well that's why he's my ex-boss and he apparently outsourced most development a few years after I quit.
      - tptacek 6y ago
        Yeah. The dude was in the Senate during the Nixon administration. He's (we hope) recovering from a seriously poisonous culture, particularly with respect to race and gender equality. But he's also the guy that forced Obama's hand on marriage equality. I'm inclined to watchfully wait and see how he handles things from here. In the meantime: he's said some stupid shit. What'd you expect?
  - cameldrv 6y ago
    Personal experience. I was talking to some absolutely lovely Polish friends of mine one evening, and somehow we were discussing Christmas growing up. Somehow it came up that many of my childhood friends celebrated Hanukah instead, and the response was a puzzled "You like Jews? Really?" After some mentions of typical stereotypes as to why that would be strange, I said that that wasn't my experience and changed the subject. From talking to other Polish people, my impression is that this is a fairly typical attitude. I think that the reason this doesn't show up as incidents in the news is simply that there are hardly any Jews in Poland because they were virtually completely wiped out in the Holocaust.
- enigma20 6y ago
  I'm not German but I live in German. I didn't notice racism. Maybe some don't like immigrants (especially from eastern Europe, same in UK). And what the hell is causal racism? Give me examples please.
id 6y ago
It is because Germany also takes in a lot of lower class/uneducated migrants in who have almost no prospects of getting a good job. Whereas America doesn't really do that as much (at least right now, I'm not talking about the past). Germany also doesn't have a lot of black people, which in my opinion if they had would make the racism more visible.
- jariel 6y ago
  So this is an important point. An American in Germany would probably knee-jerk to 'racism' for a few reasons, and although there are different kinds of unfairness, I'm not sure if that's quite the right word. America is an open place, Germany, not so much. America has tons of really high-level aptitude migrants, Germany doesn't quite have that. With respect to 'glass ceilings' - it's more complicated. As a resident of Germany for some time, as an outsider ... I would have expected to be promoted well enough if I was materially 'that much better', but frankly, not otherwise. I actually accepted the fact that 'this is a German company, it's going to be run by Germans'. I was in France I felt the same way. I don't believe in the notion that a random person from country XYZ has the 'right' to be an executive for example at a local company. Definitely treated with respect and not face racism, definitely promoted rank and file based mostly on performance, definitely the same material, legal rights - but beyond that ... I always felt 'it was their country, not really mine'. Also, there are quite a number of these countries run by foreign nationals anyhow, it's just not quite as common as in the US.
unanswered 6y ago
> In America, they are doing well This is taken as further evidence of American racism!

cameldrv 6y ago

Having lived in Germany for a few years, I was pretty surprised by the level of casual racism. The level of casual anti-semitism in Poland was even more surprising.

piokoch 6y ago
Interesting. I've checked [1] and it seems that number of antisemitic incidents in Poland is rather low (for instance is smaller than in Sweden, which has much smaller population), not to mention France, where number of incidents was 5 times bigger than in Poland. I am curious what is source of you information about Polish antisemitism. [1] https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2020/antisemitism-overview-2009-2019 https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2020/antisemitism-overv...
- vaidhy 6y ago
  I am really curious how a report like this can capture casual racism or antisemitism. When I was working in Switzerland a long time ago, one of the comments I heard frequently is that I am not like other Indians - I dress well, speak well and I am tall. I would consider it as a "racist" comment, but not something that would get reported. One of my other friends from India felt similar, if he is not dressed in a suit, he would be treated differently. I doubt he would report it either. You are different and will be treated differently. Jariel made a similar point above - you are constantly aware that it is not your country. I do not feel the same in US.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    > When I was working in Switzerland a long time ago, one of the comments I heard frequently is that I am not like other Indians - I dress well, speak well and I am tall. I would consider it as a "racist" comment, but not something that would get reported. Yikes. Very Joe Biden: https://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/31/biden.obama/ https://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/31/biden.obama/ > "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," Biden said. "I mean, that's a storybook, man." I've never gotten a comment like that as a South Asian (Bangladesh) in the United States.
    - selimthegrim 6y ago
      My own ex-boss (Bangladeshi immigrant from Dhaka) told me (Pakistani-American born here) when I asked him for a proper W2 in order to lease my car as opposed to a handwritten one that "suspicion runs in your veins like everyone else from the subcontinent" (I managed to extract it from the HR person)
      - rayiner 6y ago
        Lol!
        selimthegrim 6y ago
        Well that's why he's my ex-boss and he apparently outsourced most development a few years after I quit.
    - tptacek 6y ago
      Yeah. The dude was in the Senate during the Nixon administration. He's (we hope) recovering from a seriously poisonous culture, particularly with respect to race and gender equality. But he's also the guy that forced Obama's hand on marriage equality. I'm inclined to watchfully wait and see how he handles things from here. In the meantime: he's said some stupid shit. What'd you expect?
- cameldrv 6y ago
  Personal experience. I was talking to some absolutely lovely Polish friends of mine one evening, and somehow we were discussing Christmas growing up. Somehow it came up that many of my childhood friends celebrated Hanukah instead, and the response was a puzzled "You like Jews? Really?" After some mentions of typical stereotypes as to why that would be strange, I said that that wasn't my experience and changed the subject. From talking to other Polish people, my impression is that this is a fairly typical attitude. I think that the reason this doesn't show up as incidents in the news is simply that there are hardly any Jews in Poland because they were virtually completely wiped out in the Holocaust.
enigma20 6y ago
I'm not German but I live in German. I didn't notice racism. Maybe some don't like immigrants (especially from eastern Europe, same in UK). And what the hell is causal racism? Give me examples please.

id 6y ago

It is because Germany also takes in a lot of lower class/uneducated migrants in who have almost no prospects of getting a good job. Whereas America doesn't really do that as much (at least right now, I'm not talking about the past). Germany also doesn't have a lot of black people, which in my opinion if they had would make the racism more visible.

jariel 6y ago
So this is an important point. An American in Germany would probably knee-jerk to 'racism' for a few reasons, and although there are different kinds of unfairness, I'm not sure if that's quite the right word. America is an open place, Germany, not so much. America has tons of really high-level aptitude migrants, Germany doesn't quite have that. With respect to 'glass ceilings' - it's more complicated. As a resident of Germany for some time, as an outsider ... I would have expected to be promoted well enough if I was materially 'that much better', but frankly, not otherwise. I actually accepted the fact that 'this is a German company, it's going to be run by Germans'. I was in France I felt the same way. I don't believe in the notion that a random person from country XYZ has the 'right' to be an executive for example at a local company. Definitely treated with respect and not face racism, definitely promoted rank and file based mostly on performance, definitely the same material, legal rights - but beyond that ... I always felt 'it was their country, not really mine'. Also, there are quite a number of these countries run by foreign nationals anyhow, it's just not quite as common as in the US.

unanswered 6y ago

> In America, they are doing well This is taken as further evidence of American racism!