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As always people on here bitching about the US. As an outsider one thing I find to be really good in the US is inclusion. Americans really don't know how backwa

As always people on here bitching about the US. As an outsider one thing I find to be really good in the US is inclusion. Americans really don't know how backwards the rest of the world is. For example, I currently live in Germany. Germany is currently importing boatloads of Latino and South East Asian STEM workers. Now if you look at the structure of German companies two things stand out: 1. there is a huge disparity between management and workers and this is reflected also in the salaries 2. all management are German (99.9% ethnic with maybe one 3rd generation ethnic Slav/Turk) This situation is very likely true for most of Europe, except for maybe the UK. So of course migrants in the US are more productive. In most countries immigrants are imported to fill a niche and the glass ceiling is held firmly just above that niche. And let's not even talk about entrepreneurial opportunities for immigrants.

DetroitThrow 6y ago
Yes, I am always shocked to hear how "non-racist" Germany is when I have friends who failed to climb the corporate ladder their because of their Greek last name, as they were explicitly told by their coworkers. In America, they are doing well now as an executive at a F500.
- cameldrv 6y ago
  Having lived in Germany for a few years, I was pretty surprised by the level of casual racism. The level of casual anti-semitism in Poland was even more surprising.
  - piokoch 6y ago
    Interesting. I've checked [1] and it seems that number of antisemitic incidents in Poland is rather low (for instance is smaller than in Sweden, which has much smaller population), not to mention France, where number of incidents was 5 times bigger than in Poland. I am curious what is source of you information about Polish antisemitism. [1] https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2020/antisemitism-overview-2009-2019 https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2020/antisemitism-overv...
    - vaidhy 6y ago
      I am really curious how a report like this can capture casual racism or antisemitism. When I was working in Switzerland a long time ago, one of the comments I heard frequently is that I am not like other Indians - I dress well, speak well and I am tall. I would consider it as a "racist" comment, but not something that would get reported. One of my other friends from India felt similar, if he is not dressed in a suit, he would be treated differently. I doubt he would report it either. You are different and will be treated differently. Jariel made a similar point above - you are constantly aware that it is not your country. I do not feel the same in US.
      - rayiner 6y ago
        > When I was working in Switzerland a long time ago, one of the comments I heard frequently is that I am not like other Indians - I dress well, speak well and I am tall. I would consider it as a "racist" comment, but not something that would get reported. Yikes. Very Joe Biden: https://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/31/biden.obama/ https://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/31/biden.obama/ > "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," Biden said. "I mean, that's a storybook, man." I've never gotten a comment like that as a South Asian (Bangladesh) in the United States.
        selimthegrim 6y ago
        My own ex-boss (Bangladeshi immigrant from Dhaka) told me (Pakistani-American born here) when I asked him for a proper W2 in order to lease my car as opposed to a handwritten one that "suspicion runs in your veins like everyone else from the subcontinent" (I managed to extract it from the HR person)
        rayiner 6y ago
        Lol!
        selimthegrim 6y ago
  - enigma20 6y ago
    I'm not German but I live in German. I didn't notice racism. Maybe some don't like immigrants (especially from eastern Europe, same in UK). And what the hell is causal racism? Give me examples please.
- id 6y ago
  It is because Germany also takes in a lot of lower class/uneducated migrants in who have almost no prospects of getting a good job. Whereas America doesn't really do that as much (at least right now, I'm not talking about the past). Germany also doesn't have a lot of black people, which in my opinion if they had would make the racism more visible.
  - jariel 6y ago
    So this is an important point. An American in Germany would probably knee-jerk to 'racism' for a few reasons, and although there are different kinds of unfairness, I'm not sure if that's quite the right word. America is an open place, Germany, not so much. America has tons of really high-level aptitude migrants, Germany doesn't quite have that. With respect to 'glass ceilings' - it's more complicated. As a resident of Germany for some time, as an outsider ... I would have expected to be promoted well enough if I was materially 'that much better', but frankly, not otherwise. I actually accepted the fact that 'this is a German company, it's going to be run by Germans'. I was in France I felt the same way. I don't believe in the notion that a random person from country XYZ has the 'right' to be an executive for example at a local company. Definitely treated with respect and not face racism, definitely promoted rank and file based mostly on performance, definitely the same material, legal rights - but beyond that ... I always felt 'it was their country, not really mine'. Also, there are quite a number of these countries run by foreign nationals anyhow, it's just not quite as common as in the US.
- unanswered 6y ago
  > In America, they are doing well This is taken as further evidence of American racism!
throw2838 6y ago
Please! All european countries have equal opportunity laws. If you are less qualified and do not speak local language, you will have a hard time! Compared to most european countries, US is very xenophobic. We offer clear path to citizenships, after 5 years you get passport. Not this dreamer BS.
- xxpor 6y ago
  The "dreamer BS" isn't in any way comparable. I seriously doubt you're offering citizenship in 5 years to anyone who shows up and sneaks across the border. I do think we should offer citizenship to the dreamers but it'd involve passing actual laws so...
  - throw2838 6y ago
    Well, if they work, pay taxes, can have a driver licence... Yes they will get citizenship after 5 years of residency. I just hate this smug american BS. "We love XYZ", but will exploit it, and change rules every 4 years.
    - incrudible 6y ago
      > Well, if they work, pay taxes, can have a driver licence... Yes they will get citizenship after 5 years of residency. As far as I can tell, it is eight years of legal residency. You also must not be dependent on welfare, which implies that you're either already wealthy, dependent on someone, or you have permission to work. Very similar to the US. So effectively you have to apply for a work visa just like in the US, you can't just walk in and expect to be tolerated - unless you're a refugee.
    - plandis 6y ago
      Which European countries provide a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants who have lived in that given country for 5 years?
    - vinay427 6y ago
      > citizenship after 5 years of residency. This is literally false in many European countries. I live in one where it is false. Please verify details before posting with specific numbers. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/becoming-a-citizen/29288376 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/becoming-a-citizen/29288376
semanticsbitch 6y ago
In America, the lack of a middle class creates racism and classism. I struggled my entire life to get an education that ultimately was just indentured servitude and barely now can survive. People who didn't go to college seem to be the ones who are not struggling and can afford to buy a home. I went on EBT during the pandemic and received quadruple the money I have ever had for food. When a country cares more about failures over people who try hard, you should expect pain, racism, classism, and just general hate. This is not a meritocracy and never has been
rayiner 6y ago
Some data to support this: https://fortune.com/2020/06/19/corporate-germany-race-diversity-data/ https://fortune.com/2020/06/19/corporate-germany-race-divers... > There are 179 people on the management or executive boards of Germany’s 29 Fortune Global 500 companies. Just two of them are not white—both hailing from South Asia—and none is black. Contrast the US: https://deloitte.wsj.com/riskandcompliance/2019/03/12/women-and-minorities-on-fortune-500-boards-more-room-to-grow/ https://deloitte.wsj.com/riskandcompliance/2019/03/12/women-... > Total minority representation increased to 16.1 percent (912 board seats) from 12.8 percent in 2010, the first year Fortune 500 data were captured.
- foepys 6y ago
  Germany doesn't have many black people because Germany didn't import them as slaves and never really colonized Africa. This whole statistic is worthless without context. Like how Germany's first immigrants after WW2 were low skilled Turkish workers and only recently Germany became more attractive for high-skilled immigrants because the US effectively shut down its visa program for the majority of people. I'm not saying Germany is perfect but just whipping out some numbers without context doesn't cut it. Also, it's pretty bold for Americans to lecture other countries on racism while their police is gunning down people simply for the color of their skin and is separating children of refugees from their parents to put them in cages. Meanwhile Germany is providing healthcare and shelter for all refugees but apparently doesn't currently promote a few dozen high-skilled workers that very likely could've made it anywhere to be CEO.
  - sangnoir 6y ago
    > Germany doesn't have many black people because Germany didn't import them as slaves and never really colonized Africa. Germany did colonize Africa and committed its fair share of attrocities in Namibia, but the colonies were taken away after WWII - way before the African independence movement took hold (which was immediately followed by an uptick of citizens in those former colonies migrating to colonial powers)
    - iguy 6y ago
Balero 6y ago
You also lose a lot of the cultural baggage when you go somewhere new, which when it's holding you back is a great thing to be rid of. As a guy from northern England I have been held back in my career when working in the south because of my accent, which is not very strong anyway. For example not being allowed to give presentations, or meet clients, as there was someone who "Would give the right impression". In the US I just have a weird accent. No cultural baggage, no jokes about being thick etc. If you can get past people trying to get you to say lines from Game of Thrones, you're accent doesn't mean anything.
- rawgabbit 6y ago
  I happen to prefer a Scottish accent over a BBC accent.
hntrader 6y ago
> 2. all management are German Questions from someone that knows very little about Germany: How much of this is the German culture to be educated to a master/PhD level in order to get into management roles? Perhaps that increases the barriers to entry into these levels for immigrants. How much of this is a language barrier? Immigrants to English-speaking countries have often learned some English before they arrive (often from their schooling) which might put them in a more advantageous position relatively speaking.
- orange_tee 6y ago
  To be honest, I do not want to speculate about the why and philosophize about the justifications, as the issue is very complicated and would needlessly deviate the discussion. My comment was very matter of fact: because of the current lack of diversity in management, immigrants have virtually no opportunities to break into management, and because high compensation is almost entirely reserved for management, this means that immigrants cannot be deemed high-achievers in this business environment.
  - hntrader 6y ago
    Does this also apply to 2nd generation immigrants?
hintymad 6y ago
Yet the US is is the most racist country in the world with "systemic racism", so much so that even China asked the US in UN to reflect upon their systemic racism instead of attacking other country's human rights. Seriously, the US is a really fair country. You want to assert that the US is a racist country, do please define what qualifies "systemic racism". Don't be like that URI professor who hates everyone who "asks for data".
- wassenaar10 6y ago
  > do please define what qualifies "systemic racism" It means whatever it needs to mean in a pinch.
  - lambda_obrien 6y ago
    It's defined as the racism inherent in the structure of the system, such as longer sentences for crack cocaine (preferred and used mostly by low income black people) versus powder cocaine (preferred and used mostly by well off white people). Sometimes people use it to describe racism between people, but it's actually supposed to mean the structural racism which exists in a societal system. It doesn't mean that someone designed it that way, but it could have been or it could be an accidental thing. Discounting a concept because it's used improperly by some of the "other side" is common today but not helpful.
    - walkedaway 6y ago
      Oh, good, then US doesn't have systemic racism, as proven by Thomas Sowell in "Disparities and Discrimination."
cccc4all 6y ago
It's hilarious how a thread about US immigration studies turned into discussion on German corporate ladder. And, various european attitudes about ethnicities. Germany is not US. Europe is not US. How they deal with societal situations will be different from how US deals with societal situations. Are there lots of German/Europe HN users? I am US centric so I tend to think HN is US thing, specifically tech cities, mainly, San Francisco.

DetroitThrow 6y ago

Yes, I am always shocked to hear how "non-racist" Germany is when I have friends who failed to climb the corporate ladder their because of their Greek last name, as they were explicitly told by their coworkers. In America, they are doing well now as an executive at a F500.

cameldrv 6y ago
Having lived in Germany for a few years, I was pretty surprised by the level of casual racism. The level of casual anti-semitism in Poland was even more surprising.
- piokoch 6y ago
  Interesting. I've checked [1] and it seems that number of antisemitic incidents in Poland is rather low (for instance is smaller than in Sweden, which has much smaller population), not to mention France, where number of incidents was 5 times bigger than in Poland. I am curious what is source of you information about Polish antisemitism. [1] https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2020/antisemitism-overview-2009-2019 https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2020/antisemitism-overv...
  - vaidhy 6y ago
    I am really curious how a report like this can capture casual racism or antisemitism. When I was working in Switzerland a long time ago, one of the comments I heard frequently is that I am not like other Indians - I dress well, speak well and I am tall. I would consider it as a "racist" comment, but not something that would get reported. One of my other friends from India felt similar, if he is not dressed in a suit, he would be treated differently. I doubt he would report it either. You are different and will be treated differently. Jariel made a similar point above - you are constantly aware that it is not your country. I do not feel the same in US.
    - rayiner 6y ago
      > When I was working in Switzerland a long time ago, one of the comments I heard frequently is that I am not like other Indians - I dress well, speak well and I am tall. I would consider it as a "racist" comment, but not something that would get reported. Yikes. Very Joe Biden: https://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/31/biden.obama/ https://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/31/biden.obama/ > "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," Biden said. "I mean, that's a storybook, man." I've never gotten a comment like that as a South Asian (Bangladesh) in the United States.
      - selimthegrim 6y ago
        My own ex-boss (Bangladeshi immigrant from Dhaka) told me (Pakistani-American born here) when I asked him for a proper W2 in order to lease my car as opposed to a handwritten one that "suspicion runs in your veins like everyone else from the subcontinent" (I managed to extract it from the HR person)
        rayiner 6y ago
        Lol!
        selimthegrim 6y ago
- enigma20 6y ago
  I'm not German but I live in German. I didn't notice racism. Maybe some don't like immigrants (especially from eastern Europe, same in UK). And what the hell is causal racism? Give me examples please.
id 6y ago
It is because Germany also takes in a lot of lower class/uneducated migrants in who have almost no prospects of getting a good job. Whereas America doesn't really do that as much (at least right now, I'm not talking about the past). Germany also doesn't have a lot of black people, which in my opinion if they had would make the racism more visible.
- jariel 6y ago
  So this is an important point. An American in Germany would probably knee-jerk to 'racism' for a few reasons, and although there are different kinds of unfairness, I'm not sure if that's quite the right word. America is an open place, Germany, not so much. America has tons of really high-level aptitude migrants, Germany doesn't quite have that. With respect to 'glass ceilings' - it's more complicated. As a resident of Germany for some time, as an outsider ... I would have expected to be promoted well enough if I was materially 'that much better', but frankly, not otherwise. I actually accepted the fact that 'this is a German company, it's going to be run by Germans'. I was in France I felt the same way. I don't believe in the notion that a random person from country XYZ has the 'right' to be an executive for example at a local company. Definitely treated with respect and not face racism, definitely promoted rank and file based mostly on performance, definitely the same material, legal rights - but beyond that ... I always felt 'it was their country, not really mine'. Also, there are quite a number of these countries run by foreign nationals anyhow, it's just not quite as common as in the US.
unanswered 6y ago
> In America, they are doing well This is taken as further evidence of American racism!

throw2838 6y ago

Please! All european countries have equal opportunity laws. If you are less qualified and do not speak local language, you will have a hard time! Compared to most european countries, US is very xenophobic. We offer clear path to citizenships, after 5 years you get passport. Not this dreamer BS.

xxpor 6y ago
The "dreamer BS" isn't in any way comparable. I seriously doubt you're offering citizenship in 5 years to anyone who shows up and sneaks across the border. I do think we should offer citizenship to the dreamers but it'd involve passing actual laws so...
- throw2838 6y ago
  Well, if they work, pay taxes, can have a driver licence... Yes they will get citizenship after 5 years of residency. I just hate this smug american BS. "We love XYZ", but will exploit it, and change rules every 4 years.
  - incrudible 6y ago
    > Well, if they work, pay taxes, can have a driver licence... Yes they will get citizenship after 5 years of residency. As far as I can tell, it is eight years of legal residency. You also must not be dependent on welfare, which implies that you're either already wealthy, dependent on someone, or you have permission to work. Very similar to the US. So effectively you have to apply for a work visa just like in the US, you can't just walk in and expect to be tolerated - unless you're a refugee.
  - plandis 6y ago
    Which European countries provide a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants who have lived in that given country for 5 years?
  - vinay427 6y ago
    > citizenship after 5 years of residency. This is literally false in many European countries. I live in one where it is false. Please verify details before posting with specific numbers. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/becoming-a-citizen/29288376 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/becoming-a-citizen/29288376

semanticsbitch 6y ago

In America, the lack of a middle class creates racism and classism. I struggled my entire life to get an education that ultimately was just indentured servitude and barely now can survive. People who didn't go to college seem to be the ones who are not struggling and can afford to buy a home. I went on EBT during the pandemic and received quadruple the money I have ever had for food. When a country cares more about failures over people who try hard, you should expect pain, racism, classism, and just general hate. This is not a meritocracy and never has been

rayiner 6y ago

Some data to support this: https://fortune.com/2020/06/19/corporate-germany-race-diversity-data/ https://fortune.com/2020/06/19/corporate-germany-race-divers... > There are 179 people on the management or executive boards of Germany’s 29 Fortune Global 500 companies. Just two of them are not white—both hailing from South Asia—and none is black. Contrast the US: https://deloitte.wsj.com/riskandcompliance/2019/03/12/women-and-minorities-on-fortune-500-boards-more-room-to-grow/ https://deloitte.wsj.com/riskandcompliance/2019/03/12/women-... > Total minority representation increased to 16.1 percent (912 board seats) from 12.8 percent in 2010, the first year Fortune 500 data were captured.

foepys 6y ago
Germany doesn't have many black people because Germany didn't import them as slaves and never really colonized Africa. This whole statistic is worthless without context. Like how Germany's first immigrants after WW2 were low skilled Turkish workers and only recently Germany became more attractive for high-skilled immigrants because the US effectively shut down its visa program for the majority of people. I'm not saying Germany is perfect but just whipping out some numbers without context doesn't cut it. Also, it's pretty bold for Americans to lecture other countries on racism while their police is gunning down people simply for the color of their skin and is separating children of refugees from their parents to put them in cages. Meanwhile Germany is providing healthcare and shelter for all refugees but apparently doesn't currently promote a few dozen high-skilled workers that very likely could've made it anywhere to be CEO.
- sangnoir 6y ago
  > Germany doesn't have many black people because Germany didn't import them as slaves and never really colonized Africa. Germany did colonize Africa and committed its fair share of attrocities in Namibia, but the colonies were taken away after WWII - way before the African independence movement took hold (which was immediately followed by an uptick of citizens in those former colonies migrating to colonial powers)
  - iguy 6y ago

Balero 6y ago

You also lose a lot of the cultural baggage when you go somewhere new, which when it's holding you back is a great thing to be rid of. As a guy from northern England I have been held back in my career when working in the south because of my accent, which is not very strong anyway. For example not being allowed to give presentations, or meet clients, as there was someone who "Would give the right impression". In the US I just have a weird accent. No cultural baggage, no jokes about being thick etc. If you can get past people trying to get you to say lines from Game of Thrones, you're accent doesn't mean anything.

rawgabbit 6y ago
I happen to prefer a Scottish accent over a BBC accent.

hntrader 6y ago

> 2. all management are German Questions from someone that knows very little about Germany: How much of this is the German culture to be educated to a master/PhD level in order to get into management roles? Perhaps that increases the barriers to entry into these levels for immigrants. How much of this is a language barrier? Immigrants to English-speaking countries have often learned some English before they arrive (often from their schooling) which might put them in a more advantageous position relatively speaking.

orange_tee 6y ago
To be honest, I do not want to speculate about the why and philosophize about the justifications, as the issue is very complicated and would needlessly deviate the discussion. My comment was very matter of fact: because of the current lack of diversity in management, immigrants have virtually no opportunities to break into management, and because high compensation is almost entirely reserved for management, this means that immigrants cannot be deemed high-achievers in this business environment.
- hntrader 6y ago
  Does this also apply to 2nd generation immigrants?

hintymad 6y ago

Yet the US is is the most racist country in the world with "systemic racism", so much so that even China asked the US in UN to reflect upon their systemic racism instead of attacking other country's human rights. Seriously, the US is a really fair country. You want to assert that the US is a racist country, do please define what qualifies "systemic racism". Don't be like that URI professor who hates everyone who "asks for data".

wassenaar10 6y ago
> do please define what qualifies "systemic racism" It means whatever it needs to mean in a pinch.
- lambda_obrien 6y ago
  It's defined as the racism inherent in the structure of the system, such as longer sentences for crack cocaine (preferred and used mostly by low income black people) versus powder cocaine (preferred and used mostly by well off white people). Sometimes people use it to describe racism between people, but it's actually supposed to mean the structural racism which exists in a societal system. It doesn't mean that someone designed it that way, but it could have been or it could be an accidental thing. Discounting a concept because it's used improperly by some of the "other side" is common today but not helpful.
  - walkedaway 6y ago
    Oh, good, then US doesn't have systemic racism, as proven by Thomas Sowell in "Disparities and Discrimination."

cccc4all 6y ago

It's hilarious how a thread about US immigration studies turned into discussion on German corporate ladder. And, various european attitudes about ethnicities. Germany is not US. Europe is not US. How they deal with societal situations will be different from how US deals with societal situations. Are there lots of German/Europe HN users? I am US centric so I tend to think HN is US thing, specifically tech cities, mainly, San Francisco.