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>> I can't wait for other countries to simply copy the New Zealand quarantine rules When the United States of America can relocate to an island and near-perman

>> I can't wait for other countries to simply copy the New Zealand quarantine rules When the United States of America can relocate to an island and near-permanently ban travel into the country like NZ has, we'll do that, I guess. EDIT: Ah yes, HN the libertarian paradise unless it's about COVID, then the recommendations are non-practical authoritarian measures and citing island nation success and hurling downvotes. Keep them coming.

mkl 6y ago
It's possible to close borders without being on an island. I (in NZ) don't think the the island factor is essential. The USA has more active military personnel than almost any other country, enough to make closing borders pretty easy compared with many other places.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  It's not clear that it is possible. The obvious point of comparison is China, which has continually had to fight off new waves of infections despite strong lockdowns and strong border restrictions. (A lockdown started just 2 weeks ago covering about as many people as the total population of Australia.)
  - andylynch 6y ago
    They do seem to be doing ok with it. Their lockdowns and done properly and actually work. ( speaking from the UK where arrivals still quarantine on the honour system and govt offices are hot spots despite being declared ‘COVID safe’)
    - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      I'm not saying they're doing badly, just that they've been unable to fully close their borders to the virus despite being equally committed to doing so.
- icelancer 6y ago
  >> I (in NZ) don't think the the island factor is essential. Why are the countries consistently being cited for doing good jobs in this thread seem to be island nations? Exclude AUS and NZ from the analysis and there are very few landlocked countries doing a good job without very authoritarian measures that are unlikely to be legal in the countries doing poorly.
  - gridspy 6y ago
    Probably because our (NZ) governments are simpler. The entire New Zealand government is probably more similar to a state legislature than it is to the US govt. The UK could have also succeeded but the government didn't have the will to even try early on. Now they are only willing to take half measures. Also, we DID (NZ, AUZ) have a small advantage since we had less inbound infected for a few weeks early on due to distance. But then again, other nations (US, UK, ...) didn't even try to pursue an elimination strategy.
  - mantas 6y ago
    Eh. My country, a small EU member having land border with several EU members and other countries did a good job in spring. Next-to-zero cases in summer. Then the public demanded to open up the gates. We ended up #1 in Europe around Christmas...
    - gridspy 6y ago
      Sounds like a great example of how a non-island can successfully control the virus and how when the govt stops trying, the virus comes straight back. Also, I bet that when "the public demanded" it was a loud and public minority who wanted travel (and Covid-19) back.
  - flukus 6y ago
    > Why are the countries consistently being cited for doing good jobs in this thread seem to be island nations? Because these are western english speaking nations with a similar culture that have people posting on HN.
gridspy 6y ago
- Make tests free (fully subsidized) - Shut down the highway off-ramps into towns with some sort of inter-state quarantine scheme (make this legal) - Institute financial support for all non-essential businesses, then force them to close (cease in person trading) during lock-down - Educate the populace on Covid details It's not just about strong walls or deep oceans. We're not talking about a zombie apocalypse here. Stop making excuses.
- icelancer 6y ago
  >> Shut down the highway off-ramps into towns with some sort of inter-state quarantine scheme (make this legal) "Make this legal" is a pretty hand-wavy way to say that it isn't legal and isn't likely to become legal. Restricting interstate travel is going to be very difficult to both achieve and to survive federal court challenges. Some toolkits are not available to some countries. The United States is unlikely to be able to effectively use the authoritarian measures other countries have used. Pointing this out gets mass downvotes on HN which is a typical libertarian paradise, but when it comes to COVID, is all about authoritarian measures to get it done. I'd be fine with them too if they were at all practical in this country, but they aren't.
  - gridspy 6y ago
    I concur it was hand-wavy. I'd hope there was some acceptable measure you could get through the courts here in the name of health. Such a barrier is only really essential when different states have different rules. If you could get all states to agree on a lock-down it would go a long way. You might be able to set up quarantine barriers as you exit the interstate? I don't know. Personally, I think it is terms like "libertarian paradise" which lead to down-votes. Talk about the issues, not some made up catch all names like "libertarian"
    - icelancer 6y ago
      >> I'd hope there was some acceptable measure you could get through the courts here in the name of health. Interstate commerce clause is going to be nearly impossible to subvert in courts, much less state autonomy, and non-cooperating governors (primarily Republican, I'm sure, but Gov. Polis likely wouldn't go for it either). >> Talk about the issues, not some made up catch all names like "libertarian" My comment was downvoted -3 before I even mentioned the word "libertarian." COVID has a way of bringing out the authoritarians in HN. I am not either. I see the value in authoritarian measures, I really do. I also realize they won't work in the US because of both compliance and lack of legal purchase.
andylynch 6y ago
Have a look at Vietnam then, they have handled this really well. Or for ans even better comparison to the US, China. There’s a lot to criticise about the CCP including their initial response and transparency, but it seems pretty clear they are now on top of it using similar tactics.
- icelancer 6y ago
  Vietnam banned international inbound travel without a 14-day quarantine and extinguished local transmission via test and trace. These are both very good ideas and both impractical for the United States. The former is a logistical nightmare in a collection of states that basically is not possible to carry out due to our incompetent government and the scale of international travel in the US being several orders of magnitude higher than Vietnam's per capita (and gross rates of course) and the latter won't work (and hasn't worked when we tried it) because our population is inherently distrustful of our government(s) and generally have the right to be that way. Again, not all tools smaller countries have are available to larger ones, and vice versa (America/EU/etc have better access to vaccines as a plus, for example).
  - caillougris 6y ago
    Vietnam also put vietnamese in "prison" like quarantine for every suspicion.. that can't be done in the US/EU. It won't be accepted, and there is already too many cases.
  - mkl 6y ago
    The distrust of government is a major obstacle. In NZ we have a government that took a science-based and very transparent approach, and is pretty well trusted (it helped that opposition parties mostly agreed with the measures). The government basically said "Here is the situation. Here is what we need to do to fix it. Because of that, here's the rules. And here's how we'll help." And most of the population just went "Well, okay then.", and complied, with some grumbles.
    - gridspy 6y ago
kingofpandora 6y ago
I don't see why the USA or Canada can't do what NZ did. If you are serious about stopping travel into the country by closing the border to travellers - and actually quarantining the residents who come back home - then you only have the relatively minor flow of illegal land crossing. Neither Canada nor the US have even tried.
- __blockcipher__ 6y ago
  This article is about zero COVID. “Relatively minor flow” (btw I’m not convinced it’s even minor...) means you never eradicate the virus (which is why I oppose the idea of zero covid categorically)
  - denismi 6y ago
    The outbreak in Victoria in May-Sep 2020 was the source of the majority of all COVID cases in Australia. Sharing a land border with Victoria did not make it impossible for New South Wales or Victoria to get back to zero - and that's states, not countries, so the extent of the border infrastructure is a few "Welcome to Victoria" signs.

mkl 6y ago

It's possible to close borders without being on an island. I (in NZ) don't think the the island factor is essential. The USA has more active military personnel than almost any other country, enough to make closing borders pretty easy compared with many other places.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
It's not clear that it is possible. The obvious point of comparison is China, which has continually had to fight off new waves of infections despite strong lockdowns and strong border restrictions. (A lockdown started just 2 weeks ago covering about as many people as the total population of Australia.)
- andylynch 6y ago
  They do seem to be doing ok with it. Their lockdowns and done properly and actually work. ( speaking from the UK where arrivals still quarantine on the honour system and govt offices are hot spots despite being declared ‘COVID safe’)
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    I'm not saying they're doing badly, just that they've been unable to fully close their borders to the virus despite being equally committed to doing so.
icelancer 6y ago
>> I (in NZ) don't think the the island factor is essential. Why are the countries consistently being cited for doing good jobs in this thread seem to be island nations? Exclude AUS and NZ from the analysis and there are very few landlocked countries doing a good job without very authoritarian measures that are unlikely to be legal in the countries doing poorly.
- gridspy 6y ago
  Probably because our (NZ) governments are simpler. The entire New Zealand government is probably more similar to a state legislature than it is to the US govt. The UK could have also succeeded but the government didn't have the will to even try early on. Now they are only willing to take half measures. Also, we DID (NZ, AUZ) have a small advantage since we had less inbound infected for a few weeks early on due to distance. But then again, other nations (US, UK, ...) didn't even try to pursue an elimination strategy.
- mantas 6y ago
  Eh. My country, a small EU member having land border with several EU members and other countries did a good job in spring. Next-to-zero cases in summer. Then the public demanded to open up the gates. We ended up #1 in Europe around Christmas...
  - gridspy 6y ago
    Sounds like a great example of how a non-island can successfully control the virus and how when the govt stops trying, the virus comes straight back. Also, I bet that when "the public demanded" it was a loud and public minority who wanted travel (and Covid-19) back.
- flukus 6y ago
  > Why are the countries consistently being cited for doing good jobs in this thread seem to be island nations? Because these are western english speaking nations with a similar culture that have people posting on HN.

gridspy 6y ago

- Make tests free (fully subsidized) - Shut down the highway off-ramps into towns with some sort of inter-state quarantine scheme (make this legal) - Institute financial support for all non-essential businesses, then force them to close (cease in person trading) during lock-down - Educate the populace on Covid details It's not just about strong walls or deep oceans. We're not talking about a zombie apocalypse here. Stop making excuses.

icelancer 6y ago
>> Shut down the highway off-ramps into towns with some sort of inter-state quarantine scheme (make this legal) "Make this legal" is a pretty hand-wavy way to say that it isn't legal and isn't likely to become legal. Restricting interstate travel is going to be very difficult to both achieve and to survive federal court challenges. Some toolkits are not available to some countries. The United States is unlikely to be able to effectively use the authoritarian measures other countries have used. Pointing this out gets mass downvotes on HN which is a typical libertarian paradise, but when it comes to COVID, is all about authoritarian measures to get it done. I'd be fine with them too if they were at all practical in this country, but they aren't.
- gridspy 6y ago
  I concur it was hand-wavy. I'd hope there was some acceptable measure you could get through the courts here in the name of health. Such a barrier is only really essential when different states have different rules. If you could get all states to agree on a lock-down it would go a long way. You might be able to set up quarantine barriers as you exit the interstate? I don't know. Personally, I think it is terms like "libertarian paradise" which lead to down-votes. Talk about the issues, not some made up catch all names like "libertarian"
  - icelancer 6y ago
    >> I'd hope there was some acceptable measure you could get through the courts here in the name of health. Interstate commerce clause is going to be nearly impossible to subvert in courts, much less state autonomy, and non-cooperating governors (primarily Republican, I'm sure, but Gov. Polis likely wouldn't go for it either). >> Talk about the issues, not some made up catch all names like "libertarian" My comment was downvoted -3 before I even mentioned the word "libertarian." COVID has a way of bringing out the authoritarians in HN. I am not either. I see the value in authoritarian measures, I really do. I also realize they won't work in the US because of both compliance and lack of legal purchase.

andylynch 6y ago

Have a look at Vietnam then, they have handled this really well. Or for ans even better comparison to the US, China. There’s a lot to criticise about the CCP including their initial response and transparency, but it seems pretty clear they are now on top of it using similar tactics.

icelancer 6y ago
Vietnam banned international inbound travel without a 14-day quarantine and extinguished local transmission via test and trace. These are both very good ideas and both impractical for the United States. The former is a logistical nightmare in a collection of states that basically is not possible to carry out due to our incompetent government and the scale of international travel in the US being several orders of magnitude higher than Vietnam's per capita (and gross rates of course) and the latter won't work (and hasn't worked when we tried it) because our population is inherently distrustful of our government(s) and generally have the right to be that way. Again, not all tools smaller countries have are available to larger ones, and vice versa (America/EU/etc have better access to vaccines as a plus, for example).
- caillougris 6y ago
  Vietnam also put vietnamese in "prison" like quarantine for every suspicion.. that can't be done in the US/EU. It won't be accepted, and there is already too many cases.
- mkl 6y ago
  The distrust of government is a major obstacle. In NZ we have a government that took a science-based and very transparent approach, and is pretty well trusted (it helped that opposition parties mostly agreed with the measures). The government basically said "Here is the situation. Here is what we need to do to fix it. Because of that, here's the rules. And here's how we'll help." And most of the population just went "Well, okay then.", and complied, with some grumbles.
  - gridspy 6y ago

kingofpandora 6y ago

I don't see why the USA or Canada can't do what NZ did. If you are serious about stopping travel into the country by closing the border to travellers - and actually quarantining the residents who come back home - then you only have the relatively minor flow of illegal land crossing. Neither Canada nor the US have even tried.

__blockcipher__ 6y ago
This article is about zero COVID. “Relatively minor flow” (btw I’m not convinced it’s even minor...) means you never eradicate the virus (which is why I oppose the idea of zero covid categorically)
- denismi 6y ago
  The outbreak in Victoria in May-Sep 2020 was the source of the majority of all COVID cases in Australia. Sharing a land border with Victoria did not make it impossible for New South Wales or Victoria to get back to zero - and that's states, not countries, so the extent of the border infrastructure is a few "Welcome to Victoria" signs.