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I also dislike all those tools you mention. So often, I feel like devs use a tool "because it's cool" but fail to appreciate the complexity it adds - not just f

I also dislike all those tools you mention. So often, I feel like devs use a tool "because it's cool" but fail to appreciate the complexity it adds - not just for themselves but for others. The frustration expressed by your comment is a perfect example of this. In my ideal world, everybody would just use what comes with vanilla Python: python3 -m venv venv source venv/bin/activate (Or `call` on Win) pip install -Ur requirements.txt

procinct 6y ago
Venv is great for keeping dependencies separate but if your local machine doesn’t have the same version of Python as your server then you’ll need pyenv.
- RMPR 6y ago
  Not necessarily, you can use a CI pipeline to verify that your project can be build with many Python versions. This is the workflow I use here[0]. It makes catching and fixing breaking changes easier. Plus, I'm confident the core team is not likely to introduce a painful breaking change (think Python 2 -> 3) soon[1] 0: https://github.com/rmpr/atbswp https://github.com/rmpr/atbswp 1: https://mobile.twitter.com/gvanrossum/status/1306082472443084801?lang=en https://mobile.twitter.com/gvanrossum/status/130608247244308...
  - imnotjames 6y ago
    That's great for libraries but isn't it a pretty huge cost for an app you only really are going to be running on one version at a time? Dealing with BC breaks for versions you aren't intending to run in production seems like unnecessary overhead.
0x426577617265 6y ago
I agree. Python's virtual environments are awesome and easy to use. On a new server just start with apt install python3-venv Really easy to source the environments as needed during automation, etc.
ducktective 6y ago
and pipx for managing python "apps" like youtube-dl, ipython, meson, ... https://pipxproject.github.io/pipx/ https://pipxproject.github.io/pipx/
- duggan 6y ago
  I’ve been doing a manual version of this for years, creating a shell shim wrapping a venv for cli tools. This is much neater, thanks!
- mike-cardwell 6y ago
  I prefer my system for running youtube-dl in an isolated environment without having to install all of its dependencies on the host. Ansible writes a bash script at ~/bin/youtube-dl containing: #!/usr/bin/env bash set -e IMAGE_NAME="grepular/youtube-dl" # Build the image if it does not exist if [[ $(podman images --filter "reference=$IMAGE_NAME" -q) == "" ]]; then podman build -t "$IMAGE_NAME" -<<EOF >&2 FROM python:3-slim RUN python3 -m pip --no-cache-dir install youtube_dl ENTRYPOINT ["youtube-dl"] EOF fi podman run --net host -i --rm -v "$PWD:/app" -w /app "$IMAGE_NAME" "$@"
  - ORioN63 6y ago
    QQ, aren't the created files owned by root?
    - mike-cardwell 6y ago
      Nope. I'm using podman rather than docker so they're owned by the user that runs the script. The root user isn't involved. If I were using docker, I'd add `-u "$(id -u):$(id -g)"` to the docker args to deal with that issue.
  - wp381640 6y ago
    Pipx is pretty much that - installs a package into its own venv and links script entry points to .local/bin
bschwindHN 6y ago
I also dislike all the commands you just mentioned. In my ideal world, everybody would just ./the-program
- mherrmann 6y ago
  And then ./the-program breaks and someone has to read its source code. Then, the fewer dependencies the-program has, the easier it will be to fix.
  - bschwindHN 6y ago
    Sounds wonderful compared to dealing with Python tooling.
avaika 6y ago
It's all fun until one of your requirements needs a billion build dependencies to be available on a machine. How do you solve that with pyenv? Docker does it for you.
- mherrmann 6y ago
  I agree. I suspect Docker does make sense in such projects. In my pretty vanilla web development, I just usually don't experience this.
Aeolun 6y ago
I dunno, these magic incantations make a lot less sense to me than: pipenv init Pipenv install Maybe it’s because I’m used to npm and composer?
wp381640 6y ago
You must be the only person who ever runs that on your own code because you skipped the pyenv step

procinct 6y ago

Venv is great for keeping dependencies separate but if your local machine doesn’t have the same version of Python as your server then you’ll need pyenv.

RMPR 6y ago
Not necessarily, you can use a CI pipeline to verify that your project can be build with many Python versions. This is the workflow I use here[0]. It makes catching and fixing breaking changes easier. Plus, I'm confident the core team is not likely to introduce a painful breaking change (think Python 2 -> 3) soon[1] 0: https://github.com/rmpr/atbswp https://github.com/rmpr/atbswp 1: https://mobile.twitter.com/gvanrossum/status/1306082472443084801?lang=en https://mobile.twitter.com/gvanrossum/status/130608247244308...
- imnotjames 6y ago
  That's great for libraries but isn't it a pretty huge cost for an app you only really are going to be running on one version at a time? Dealing with BC breaks for versions you aren't intending to run in production seems like unnecessary overhead.

0x426577617265 6y ago

I agree. Python's virtual environments are awesome and easy to use. On a new server just start with apt install python3-venv Really easy to source the environments as needed during automation, etc.

ducktective 6y ago

and pipx for managing python "apps" like youtube-dl, ipython, meson, ... https://pipxproject.github.io/pipx/ https://pipxproject.github.io/pipx/

duggan 6y ago
I’ve been doing a manual version of this for years, creating a shell shim wrapping a venv for cli tools. This is much neater, thanks!
mike-cardwell 6y ago
I prefer my system for running youtube-dl in an isolated environment without having to install all of its dependencies on the host. Ansible writes a bash script at ~/bin/youtube-dl containing: #!/usr/bin/env bash set -e IMAGE_NAME="grepular/youtube-dl" # Build the image if it does not exist if [[ $(podman images --filter "reference=$IMAGE_NAME" -q) == "" ]]; then podman build -t "$IMAGE_NAME" -<<EOF >&2 FROM python:3-slim RUN python3 -m pip --no-cache-dir install youtube_dl ENTRYPOINT ["youtube-dl"] EOF fi podman run --net host -i --rm -v "$PWD:/app" -w /app "$IMAGE_NAME" "$@"
- ORioN63 6y ago
  QQ, aren't the created files owned by root?
  - mike-cardwell 6y ago
    Nope. I'm using podman rather than docker so they're owned by the user that runs the script. The root user isn't involved. If I were using docker, I'd add `-u "$(id -u):$(id -g)"` to the docker args to deal with that issue.
- wp381640 6y ago
  Pipx is pretty much that - installs a package into its own venv and links script entry points to .local/bin

bschwindHN 6y ago

I also dislike all the commands you just mentioned. In my ideal world, everybody would just ./the-program

mherrmann 6y ago
And then ./the-program breaks and someone has to read its source code. Then, the fewer dependencies the-program has, the easier it will be to fix.
- bschwindHN 6y ago
  Sounds wonderful compared to dealing with Python tooling.

avaika 6y ago

It's all fun until one of your requirements needs a billion build dependencies to be available on a machine. How do you solve that with pyenv? Docker does it for you.

mherrmann 6y ago
I agree. I suspect Docker does make sense in such projects. In my pretty vanilla web development, I just usually don't experience this.

Aeolun 6y ago

I dunno, these magic incantations make a lot less sense to me than: pipenv init Pipenv install Maybe it’s because I’m used to npm and composer?

wp381640 6y ago

You must be the only person who ever runs that on your own code because you skipped the pyenv step