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Authors like this frame the UBI/minimum wage debate as if we just haven't figured out the right policy mix to fix poverty or precarity -- as if it's a problem o

Authors like this frame the UBI/minimum wage debate as if we just haven't figured out the right policy mix to fix poverty or precarity -- as if it's a problem of ideas. I propose that it's in fact a question of power -- 1) who benefits from people being poor and how much 2) power do they have? 1) Owners of capital, who don't want to see their labour costs escalate and use firing/the poverty gun as a disciplinary tool. 2) Overwhelming power, channeled through vectors such as billions spent in lobbying or campaign contributions or threats to take their capital to friendlier jurisdictions.

vidarh 6y ago
Indeed you'll find that places with high degree of union power often don't have minimum wage and far less interest in UBI, because there tends to be tariff agreements and welfare systems in place that makes these things seem rather redundant. The continuation of poverty in most of the developed world is a choice, and one that people keep voting for. As long as people keep voting to maintain poverty, it's a relatively pointless academic discussion.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
reaperducer 6y ago
Lots of fun catch phrases, but unless you also propose a solution, it comes off like someone standing on a soap box in a campus quad preaching to three people.
- blackearl 6y ago
  I wouldn't expect the solution to world poverty to be easily typed up on an internet message board.
  - reaperducer 6y ago
    I agree, which is why I generally stay out of these conversations. But I think it's important for people go to beyond "That's not the problem. This is the problem" and on to "But here's something we might think about that could work toward a solution." All I ever see on HN is the same talking points I've heard regurgitated in the dozen or so union halls I've been in from coast to coast over the last 30 years. Everyone gets a lot of practice shouting the right keywords, but nobody ever says anything new, or even tip-toes near a solution.
grecy 6y ago
> as if we just haven't figured out It's also amusing the every developed country except one has already figured this out, and proven over decades their solution works very well. I'm perpetually dumbfounded America isn't able to look at the rest of the developed world, learn from what they're doing that is superior, modify and improve it a little for their needs and implement it for their own gain. EDIT: Rather than downvotes, how about some constructive discussion around why the US appears incapable of learning from other countries?
- dang 6y ago
  You have a long history of posting nationalistic flamebait to HN. We've warned you many times: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25800127 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25800127 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22622642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22622642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22604801 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22604801 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22221660 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22221660 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21880344 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21880344 ... and you've only kept doing it. You've done it repeatedly in recent days, even in the last few minutes. This really needs to stop. I don't want to ban you, because you also post good comments and that's great. But when an account keeps breaking the site guidelines and repeatedly flouts our requests to stop doing that, obviously that's where that ends up.
  - grecy 6y ago
    I'll stop, though it would be preferable if we could have discussions around topics, rather than just banning them. After living and working in the US, and Canada, and Australia, I genuinely don't understand why the US can't learn from other countries to improve itself. Honestly, I'm not trying to post flamebait, I simply don't understand, and I've never heard a good explanation. My friends here in Canadian healthcare regularly compare and contrast the system to Australia/UK/Scandanavian systems and point out the pros and cons and how the Canadian system is adopting ideas/techniques from other places that have seen good outcomes. Other countries do this regularly. Honestly - why doesn't the US? EDIT: And here I am criticizing Canada (the country I live in, and hope to become a citizen of) just a minute ago - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25972362 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25972362 I believe criticism and pointing out problems/weak points is the first step to improving a situation - after all, there can be no improvement until a problem is acknowledged. The very fact this article and thread exist suggests there is some kind of problem / or something can be improved upon with regards to paid employment.
reader_mode 6y ago
That's a very narrative driven world view. The problem with UBI is that some jobs suck but need to be done, and if you set a guaranteed income for doing nothing the incentive for doing that job suddenly needs to be a lot higher to compete. Saying that it's just the capital owners is ridiculous - consider for eg. elderly care - good luck living in with your demented mother who needs assistance to perform even the basic tasks - you think capital owners are the ones unable to afford elderly care ? And so on and so forth.
- antonzabirko 6y ago
  On the flip side, UBI will increase the revenue from those jobs. The less desirable jobs will pay more simply due to supply and demand.
  - bostonvaulter2 6y ago
    And if no one wants to do the job for the given price then it becomes more worthwhile to invest in additional automation.
  - reader_mode 6y ago
    Possibly - but I doubt it will be proportional for the undesirable jobs. It would be a volatile transition period either way.
  - syshum 6y ago
    Pay like all goods on in a market are not infinitely elastic to just say the pay will simply increase because the supply of workers drop. For example lets look at janitorial labor, that is a hard job to automate and it is required in every business. So many would think that an increase to say $15/hr would just mean all the companies would just pay the same number of workers $15/hr right? No, what you would find it maybe instead of daily trash pickup it goes to 2 times a week, or employee's are asked to take their office trash themselves to a common trash bin. Common area's are cleaned less frequently, other employee's are asked to pick up some slack, and the janitorial staff will go from 10 workers to 6 , with a responsibility of 4 floors vs 2, or other such adjustments to the "acceptable" level of janitorial services. The business has a budget of X for janitorial, that will not change very much simply because UBI or Min Wage came into play, they will just have to accept less janitorial services for the same money (aka inflation)
throwawayboise 6y ago
You left out a big one. 3) Politicians who view the poor as a voting bloc, who endlessly promise solutions that they never really deliver.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
imtringued 6y ago
I think this is spot on. Wealth gives you power that you can use to protect that wealth and thus the endless cycle begins. It's not that hard to build a system where everyone benefits. However, it's even easier to build a system where special interests benefit the most because they are the ones who are in charge after all.

vidarh 6y ago

Indeed you'll find that places with high degree of union power often don't have minimum wage and far less interest in UBI, because there tends to be tariff agreements and welfare systems in place that makes these things seem rather redundant. The continuation of poverty in most of the developed world is a choice, and one that people keep voting for. As long as people keep voting to maintain poverty, it's a relatively pointless academic discussion.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

reaperducer 6y ago

Lots of fun catch phrases, but unless you also propose a solution, it comes off like someone standing on a soap box in a campus quad preaching to three people.

blackearl 6y ago
I wouldn't expect the solution to world poverty to be easily typed up on an internet message board.
- reaperducer 6y ago
  I agree, which is why I generally stay out of these conversations. But I think it's important for people go to beyond "That's not the problem. This is the problem" and on to "But here's something we might think about that could work toward a solution." All I ever see on HN is the same talking points I've heard regurgitated in the dozen or so union halls I've been in from coast to coast over the last 30 years. Everyone gets a lot of practice shouting the right keywords, but nobody ever says anything new, or even tip-toes near a solution.

grecy 6y ago

> as if we just haven't figured out It's also amusing the every developed country except one has already figured this out, and proven over decades their solution works very well. I'm perpetually dumbfounded America isn't able to look at the rest of the developed world, learn from what they're doing that is superior, modify and improve it a little for their needs and implement it for their own gain. EDIT: Rather than downvotes, how about some constructive discussion around why the US appears incapable of learning from other countries?

dang 6y ago
You have a long history of posting nationalistic flamebait to HN. We've warned you many times: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25800127 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25800127 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22622642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22622642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22604801 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22604801 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22221660 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22221660 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21880344 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21880344 ... and you've only kept doing it. You've done it repeatedly in recent days, even in the last few minutes. This really needs to stop. I don't want to ban you, because you also post good comments and that's great. But when an account keeps breaking the site guidelines and repeatedly flouts our requests to stop doing that, obviously that's where that ends up.
- grecy 6y ago
  I'll stop, though it would be preferable if we could have discussions around topics, rather than just banning them. After living and working in the US, and Canada, and Australia, I genuinely don't understand why the US can't learn from other countries to improve itself. Honestly, I'm not trying to post flamebait, I simply don't understand, and I've never heard a good explanation. My friends here in Canadian healthcare regularly compare and contrast the system to Australia/UK/Scandanavian systems and point out the pros and cons and how the Canadian system is adopting ideas/techniques from other places that have seen good outcomes. Other countries do this regularly. Honestly - why doesn't the US? EDIT: And here I am criticizing Canada (the country I live in, and hope to become a citizen of) just a minute ago - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25972362 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25972362 I believe criticism and pointing out problems/weak points is the first step to improving a situation - after all, there can be no improvement until a problem is acknowledged. The very fact this article and thread exist suggests there is some kind of problem / or something can be improved upon with regards to paid employment.

reader_mode 6y ago

That's a very narrative driven world view. The problem with UBI is that some jobs suck but need to be done, and if you set a guaranteed income for doing nothing the incentive for doing that job suddenly needs to be a lot higher to compete. Saying that it's just the capital owners is ridiculous - consider for eg. elderly care - good luck living in with your demented mother who needs assistance to perform even the basic tasks - you think capital owners are the ones unable to afford elderly care ? And so on and so forth.

antonzabirko 6y ago
On the flip side, UBI will increase the revenue from those jobs. The less desirable jobs will pay more simply due to supply and demand.
- bostonvaulter2 6y ago
  And if no one wants to do the job for the given price then it becomes more worthwhile to invest in additional automation.
- reader_mode 6y ago
  Possibly - but I doubt it will be proportional for the undesirable jobs. It would be a volatile transition period either way.
- syshum 6y ago
  Pay like all goods on in a market are not infinitely elastic to just say the pay will simply increase because the supply of workers drop. For example lets look at janitorial labor, that is a hard job to automate and it is required in every business. So many would think that an increase to say $15/hr would just mean all the companies would just pay the same number of workers $15/hr right? No, what you would find it maybe instead of daily trash pickup it goes to 2 times a week, or employee's are asked to take their office trash themselves to a common trash bin. Common area's are cleaned less frequently, other employee's are asked to pick up some slack, and the janitorial staff will go from 10 workers to 6 , with a responsibility of 4 floors vs 2, or other such adjustments to the "acceptable" level of janitorial services. The business has a budget of X for janitorial, that will not change very much simply because UBI or Min Wage came into play, they will just have to accept less janitorial services for the same money (aka inflation)

throwawayboise 6y ago

You left out a big one. 3) Politicians who view the poor as a voting bloc, who endlessly promise solutions that they never really deliver.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

imtringued 6y ago

I think this is spot on. Wealth gives you power that you can use to protect that wealth and thus the endless cycle begins. It's not that hard to build a system where everyone benefits. However, it's even easier to build a system where special interests benefit the most because they are the ones who are in charge after all.