3 ms·

I think the current mindset of american universities is commodification of the concept of higher education. Teaching, scholastic tradition and enlightment valu

by mola 6y ago

I think the current mindset of american universities is commodification of the concept of higher education. Teaching, scholastic tradition and enlightment values are sidelined by values like customer satisfaction, marketing, and money making optimization.

the_only_law 6y ago
In this case, just let me purchase the fucking credentials without having to follow curriculum at their speed or pay for any of the things that won't benefit me anymore
- tillinghast 6y ago
  But! Think of the middlemen! (sorry, middlepersons)
- lumost 6y ago
  This mindset is ultimately what many universities are optimizing for. The credential is pretty meaningless if it can simply be purchased, people will catch on quickly enough. The ideal business is then one that actively inflates the credential's value while lowering the difficulty of achieving it. The best way to do this is to increase selectivity/restrict supply, raise prices, lower difficulty (grade inflation), and increase the time required to get the credential, while providing alternate activities for those who are inclined to do something other than receiving an education. Heck you can get degree credit by virtue of living in a foreign country via a study abroad program. The other activities a university may participate in like research, or educating only matter to the extent they enhance the "prestige" of the credential or to benefit the minority of students who value academic rigor more so than the credential.
  - Balgair 6y ago
    > The best way to do this is to increase selectivity/restrict supply, raise prices, lower difficulty (grade inflation), and increase the time required to get the credential, while providing alternate activities for those who are inclined to do something other than receiving an education. A mission that the Ivies are well on their way with. The average grade at Harvard is a 3.67 (as of a 2013 source) and the prices have never been higher (though that's an individual thing, what with scholarships). They only need to make it a 5 year program with a MA/MS tagged in to get really going; degree-inflation hopped onto grade-inflation and dollar-inflation. Somehow, you then have to work Ultimate Frisbee or chess in there too, an athletics-inflation and club-inflation (?), so to speak. Kinda like Laurie Laughlin's daughter did with the varsity-blues scandal for admissions. I'd guess that's already happened then. What do you end up with besides an empty savings account? A 22 years old with a very good resume and a very bad taste in beer and jazz. https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/12/9/stats-grade-inflation/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/12/9/stats-grade-inf...
- preommr 6y ago
  I've been saying this for a long time now. Modern universities are a mix of two contradictory ideas. It's a place for "higher learning"; trying to fit the same role as institutions from hundreds of years ago where academic learning was much rarer and was fitted for the aristocracy. While simultaneously being something that you need for a job to make money. Oh, and also the people doing the teaching are more interested in their research than actually teaching. Forget teachers putting in 100% of their effort into teaching and making sure people really get the material (here's some slides the T.A. made, deal with it), you're lucky if a professor is a half-way decent orator. There are so many better ways to get different kinds of education, particularly for humanities. There are books, online videos, etc. that provide a better education on writing, philosophy, etc. than what a single professor charging thousands of dollars can provide.
  - wbl 6y ago
    Many of the professors I admired were top notch researches as well as great teachers. They go together more often then not.
  - lumost 6y ago
    From what I understand, a top-notch professor of philosophy at a first-tier university will teach 1-2 classes per semester to 300ish students per class for which they will earn no more than 300k per year ( although typically 3-6x less ). This works out to roughly $250 per student per semester. It's difficult to price the work of T.As as they are often students themselves, but assuming each student requires an average of 2 hours per week of dedicated grading/tutoring time, then at $20/hr the total cost of providing a first tier class should be $730 dollars. This number is roughly 1/3rd to 1/2 the cost of a class at a community college, 1/6th of the effective cost per class for UMass Amherst, and roughly 1/10th the effective price per class of MIT. I can assure you that the lecturer at your community college is not making 300k either. But this calculation does show that most of the tuition costs do not end up in the hands of the teaching staff, and that providing a first rate education could be done for an order of magnitude lower cost than current first tier universities charge. Or hell, offer professors 1 million per year and still charge 1/3rd the price of MIT.
- karmakaze 6y ago
  The other part is that a degree means you can stick with some 'thing' for 4 years. A quality employers value. I tried to focus on learning with my time, grades be damned.

by mola 6y ago

the_only_law 6y ago

In this case, just let me purchase the fucking credentials without having to follow curriculum at their speed or pay for any of the things that won't benefit me anymore

tillinghast 6y ago
But! Think of the middlemen! (sorry, middlepersons)
lumost 6y ago
This mindset is ultimately what many universities are optimizing for. The credential is pretty meaningless if it can simply be purchased, people will catch on quickly enough. The ideal business is then one that actively inflates the credential's value while lowering the difficulty of achieving it. The best way to do this is to increase selectivity/restrict supply, raise prices, lower difficulty (grade inflation), and increase the time required to get the credential, while providing alternate activities for those who are inclined to do something other than receiving an education. Heck you can get degree credit by virtue of living in a foreign country via a study abroad program. The other activities a university may participate in like research, or educating only matter to the extent they enhance the "prestige" of the credential or to benefit the minority of students who value academic rigor more so than the credential.
- Balgair 6y ago
  > The best way to do this is to increase selectivity/restrict supply, raise prices, lower difficulty (grade inflation), and increase the time required to get the credential, while providing alternate activities for those who are inclined to do something other than receiving an education. A mission that the Ivies are well on their way with. The average grade at Harvard is a 3.67 (as of a 2013 source) and the prices have never been higher (though that's an individual thing, what with scholarships). They only need to make it a 5 year program with a MA/MS tagged in to get really going; degree-inflation hopped onto grade-inflation and dollar-inflation. Somehow, you then have to work Ultimate Frisbee or chess in there too, an athletics-inflation and club-inflation (?), so to speak. Kinda like Laurie Laughlin's daughter did with the varsity-blues scandal for admissions. I'd guess that's already happened then. What do you end up with besides an empty savings account? A 22 years old with a very good resume and a very bad taste in beer and jazz. https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/12/9/stats-grade-inflation/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/12/9/stats-grade-inf...
preommr 6y ago
I've been saying this for a long time now. Modern universities are a mix of two contradictory ideas. It's a place for "higher learning"; trying to fit the same role as institutions from hundreds of years ago where academic learning was much rarer and was fitted for the aristocracy. While simultaneously being something that you need for a job to make money. Oh, and also the people doing the teaching are more interested in their research than actually teaching. Forget teachers putting in 100% of their effort into teaching and making sure people really get the material (here's some slides the T.A. made, deal with it), you're lucky if a professor is a half-way decent orator. There are so many better ways to get different kinds of education, particularly for humanities. There are books, online videos, etc. that provide a better education on writing, philosophy, etc. than what a single professor charging thousands of dollars can provide.
- wbl 6y ago
  Many of the professors I admired were top notch researches as well as great teachers. They go together more often then not.
- lumost 6y ago
  From what I understand, a top-notch professor of philosophy at a first-tier university will teach 1-2 classes per semester to 300ish students per class for which they will earn no more than 300k per year ( although typically 3-6x less ). This works out to roughly $250 per student per semester. It's difficult to price the work of T.As as they are often students themselves, but assuming each student requires an average of 2 hours per week of dedicated grading/tutoring time, then at $20/hr the total cost of providing a first tier class should be $730 dollars. This number is roughly 1/3rd to 1/2 the cost of a class at a community college, 1/6th of the effective cost per class for UMass Amherst, and roughly 1/10th the effective price per class of MIT. I can assure you that the lecturer at your community college is not making 300k either. But this calculation does show that most of the tuition costs do not end up in the hands of the teaching staff, and that providing a first rate education could be done for an order of magnitude lower cost than current first tier universities charge. Or hell, offer professors 1 million per year and still charge 1/3rd the price of MIT.
karmakaze 6y ago
The other part is that a degree means you can stick with some 'thing' for 4 years. A quality employers value. I tried to focus on learning with my time, grades be damned.