10 ms·

Facebook Moderators Speak Out About Poor Working Conditions in Ireland

151 points by waynekerr 6y ago

throw2838 6y ago
I deal with FB mods in Athens, Greece. This job is subcontracted to tech support company that usually handles phones. Low skilled, unqualified work, done mostly by students for a year after school. Working conditions and pay are ok for Greece. There is no trauma, worst stuff is soft core p#rn. Most of them work from home, as mandated by Greek gov.
- saltyshake 6y ago
  If they WFH, then nothing will prevent them from 'copying' any material they want, even if by cellphone photo of the computer screen, no?
  - throw2838 6y ago
    Well, in office there was very strict no smart phone policy. Privacy laws were big issue when WFH started in march. This company also does phone support for other clients, and handles credit cards. There are huge fines. I am not sure how they made it compliant for FB. Propably sensitive stuff is still handled from office. But if you have privacy expectation on fb...
    - Twaway45609 6y ago
      They certainly hide also your personal information like name, peofike picture, etc... So at the end its just moderating texts or pictures without an author? Maybe they also automatically replace names in text? I dont think that would hurt anyone then
      - saltyshake 6y ago
        Child abuse pictures/videos can still be shared or sold online easily without PII. Other exceptions are celebrities or the difficulty in identifying PII in text.
        throw2838 6y ago
        Facebook is the Silkroad 3.0 LOL Why would anyone use FB for that? It is already very hard to run legal sex related groups on FB. Registration is pain etc.. Some other social networks are full of porn, but even those have zero tolerance for this.
        tomp 6y ago
        Couldn't you just watermark all photos before showing them to workers? Probably wouldn't stand to sophisticated attacks but would guard against theft from "low-skilled" employees...
      - raverbashing 6y ago
        Well if the content is being reported it is more likely public already or "almost public" (a big group or someone with lots of contacts) So I think the privacy expectation for that kind of thing is low.
- uniqueid 6y ago
  How do these mods avoid the disturbing material? The information I've encountered on this topic is a pile of employees and journalists on one side painting a grim picture of life as a FB mod, and this one throwaway account on HN implying it's not so bad. Forgive me if I find that hard to believe.
  - vorticalbox 6y ago
    Blind luck or maybe there isn't as much disturbing material on Facebook as one is lead to believe.
    - uniqueid 6y ago
      That would surprise me greatly. In my online life I've seen stomach-turning troll content everywhere from Duolingo to bitcoin forums. But really, hasn't everyone?
      - herewegoagain2 6y ago
        Not really, no.
        uniqueid 6y ago
        I actually only added that line as a postscript to not sound like I was making some kind of feeble boast. Ie: 'I've seen things you people wouldn't believe: racist memes on Etsy, animal carcasses on glassdoor.com...'
        herewegoagain2 6y ago
        And I actually really wonder if other people see such things, because I really don't. Not saying they don't exist, but they don't seem to get pushed into my "timelines". What you could find if you were looking for it I don't know. I've seen Goatse, though - maybe it's just that everything else pales in comparison.
      - 6y ago
eecks 6y ago
Some jobs should be paid more. An example is shop workers who are front line during the pandemic and exposing themselves to covid-19 while higher paid people get to work from home. The problem is that it is seen as a low skill job. Same for content moderators. So should they be paid more? Arguably. Will they? Probably not.
- bzb6 6y ago
  Jobs are paid according to supply and demand. Jobs that anybody can do will always be paid poorly.
  - throwaway2245 6y ago
    This is purely because of exploitation - people work those jobs to guarantee themselves shelter, food and warmth. If we (as a society) guaranteed everybody enough resources to live, those types of jobs would need to be paid a more appropriate rate, including hazard pay.
    - new_guy 6y ago
      If everyone was guaranteed those resources, then no-one is going to do the jobs that need doing.
      - bzb6 6y ago
        If everyone was guaranteed those resources, the price of everything would rise so people would still need to do those jobs.
        new_guy 6y ago
        Even if prices rose with everyone guaranteed resources, why would anyone get off their asses to shovel shit when they can sit at home and get paid basically the same?
        6y ago
jmeister 6y ago
So these contractors went all the way to Varadkar for minor inconveniences at their job, essentially internal disputes? Upset about not getting the same perks as other employees? Signing restrictive NDAs for a job with exposure to extremely sensitive company processes and customer data? The more I read about these stories, the more I’m inclined to believe Haidt’s “Coddled Mind” and Turchin’s “Elite Overproduction” theories as the root of much of the problems we’re facing in the west today.
- Vaslo 6y ago
  I had never heard of those Haidt’s book or Turchin’s theories. Very interesting reads - thank you for sharing!
- 0xdde 6y ago
  Is this a willful misreading? The "perk" mentioned is WFH during a pandemic. The mental health concerns in question are due to viewing extremely graphic content, not at all along the lines of the ridiculous "safe spaces" Haidt's book concerns itself with.
  - mynameishere 6y ago
    viewing extremely graphic content Yeah, that's the job. Garbage men got to take out garbage. Do they want an extra bonus whenever the job matches the job description now?
    - zacharycohn 6y ago
      It's more like garbage men not being given gloves to do their work, or not provided health care when they slice their hand open on a broken bottle.
- Macha 6y ago
  Due to current covid-19 restrictions in Ireland, as a result of briefly having the world's highest per capita cases in early january, the government's policy is: > Only essential workers should travel to work. You should work from home unless you are providing an essential service and need to be physically present. https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/covid19/living_with_covid19_plan.html#l05988 https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/covid19/living_with_co... Facebook content moderation is unlikely to fall under "essential work" which is more concerned about healthcare, retail necessities (food/drink/medicine/cleaning supplies), and infrastructure. Given that they've pointed out moderators elsewhere can work from home, it's likely facebook cannot demonstrate that they need to be physically present to perform the work. So yes, it is a matter for the government to get involved in if Facebook or its subcontractors are not complying. As for Varadkar, getting involved is likely due to the fact this falls under his department's remit (as minister of enterprise), not his position as Tanaiste. But getting _personally_ involved is likely Leo looking for a good PR opportunity rather than the facebook employees insisting on the Tanaiste's personal attention. Or maybe he's just also their local TD, since his constituency is Dublin West where many people in Facebook offices in Dublin likely live.
secondcoming 6y ago
If you are a contractor you don't work for FB. You work for either a separate company or your personal one. There's nothing to stop these people from starting their own moderation company that provides all the services they're demanding. Then they should lobby FB to use this company instead.
- bryan_w 6y ago
  Here, on this venture capital forum, the idea of starting your own company is absurd.
yawaworht1978 6y ago
I have spent a total of 30 minutes of my life on Facebook, looking at a friends feed (I never had an account). There is always a few people who use the platform to express themselves in the most horrible way. 30 minutes were enough for me, there are many crazies out there using the platform for unamicable purposes. No way the moderators worst case is soft pork, unless they are only looking at flagged posts. I am not sure why people think they need the platform to "keep in touch with friends" . What happened to a good old call or a WhatsApp message or god forbid, meet in person.
- scotcha1 6y ago
  WhatsApp is owned by Facebook. And 30 minutes is a pretty short period to get a representative sample of a service used by billions for many different activities (messaging, video calls, hobby groups, marketplace). The 'feed' that you scroll through is definitely a mixed bag, but Facebook has added focus to more specific and niche apps over time. For my family we use Facebook because it is cross platform (25 people, several with Android, most with iPhone, and some that like to use it by web), everyone already has an account (ages from 25 to 65), and the quality of the service is high and consistent for both messages and video calls. We frequently do a video call with all members of the family across many devices and 'it just works'.} Also, meeting in person hasn't really been 'allowed' in almost a year. #covid19

151 points by waynekerr 6y ago

I deal with FB mods in Athens, Greece. This job is subcontracted to tech support company that usually handles phones. Low skilled, unqualified work, done mostly by students for a year after school. Working conditions and pay are ok for Greece. There is no trauma, worst stuff is soft core p#rn. Most of them work from home, as mandated by Greek gov.

saltyshake 6y ago
If they WFH, then nothing will prevent them from 'copying' any material they want, even if by cellphone photo of the computer screen, no?
- throw2838 6y ago
  Well, in office there was very strict no smart phone policy. Privacy laws were big issue when WFH started in march. This company also does phone support for other clients, and handles credit cards. There are huge fines. I am not sure how they made it compliant for FB. Propably sensitive stuff is still handled from office. But if you have privacy expectation on fb...
  - Twaway45609 6y ago
    They certainly hide also your personal information like name, peofike picture, etc... So at the end its just moderating texts or pictures without an author? Maybe they also automatically replace names in text? I dont think that would hurt anyone then
    - saltyshake 6y ago
      Child abuse pictures/videos can still be shared or sold online easily without PII. Other exceptions are celebrities or the difficulty in identifying PII in text.
      - throw2838 6y ago
        Facebook is the Silkroad 3.0 LOL Why would anyone use FB for that? It is already very hard to run legal sex related groups on FB. Registration is pain etc.. Some other social networks are full of porn, but even those have zero tolerance for this.
      - tomp 6y ago
        Couldn't you just watermark all photos before showing them to workers? Probably wouldn't stand to sophisticated attacks but would guard against theft from "low-skilled" employees...
    - raverbashing 6y ago
      Well if the content is being reported it is more likely public already or "almost public" (a big group or someone with lots of contacts) So I think the privacy expectation for that kind of thing is low.
uniqueid 6y ago
How do these mods avoid the disturbing material? The information I've encountered on this topic is a pile of employees and journalists on one side painting a grim picture of life as a FB mod, and this one throwaway account on HN implying it's not so bad. Forgive me if I find that hard to believe.
- vorticalbox 6y ago
  Blind luck or maybe there isn't as much disturbing material on Facebook as one is lead to believe.
  - uniqueid 6y ago
    That would surprise me greatly. In my online life I've seen stomach-turning troll content everywhere from Duolingo to bitcoin forums. But really, hasn't everyone?
    - herewegoagain2 6y ago
      Not really, no.
      - uniqueid 6y ago
        I actually only added that line as a postscript to not sound like I was making some kind of feeble boast. Ie: 'I've seen things you people wouldn't believe: racist memes on Etsy, animal carcasses on glassdoor.com...'
        herewegoagain2 6y ago
        And I actually really wonder if other people see such things, because I really don't. Not saying they don't exist, but they don't seem to get pushed into my "timelines". What you could find if you were looking for it I don't know. I've seen Goatse, though - maybe it's just that everything else pales in comparison.
    - 6y ago

eecks 6y ago

Some jobs should be paid more. An example is shop workers who are front line during the pandemic and exposing themselves to covid-19 while higher paid people get to work from home. The problem is that it is seen as a low skill job. Same for content moderators. So should they be paid more? Arguably. Will they? Probably not.

bzb6 6y ago
Jobs are paid according to supply and demand. Jobs that anybody can do will always be paid poorly.
- throwaway2245 6y ago
  This is purely because of exploitation - people work those jobs to guarantee themselves shelter, food and warmth. If we (as a society) guaranteed everybody enough resources to live, those types of jobs would need to be paid a more appropriate rate, including hazard pay.
  - new_guy 6y ago
    If everyone was guaranteed those resources, then no-one is going to do the jobs that need doing.
    - bzb6 6y ago
      If everyone was guaranteed those resources, the price of everything would rise so people would still need to do those jobs.
      - new_guy 6y ago
        Even if prices rose with everyone guaranteed resources, why would anyone get off their asses to shovel shit when they can sit at home and get paid basically the same?
        6y ago

jmeister 6y ago

So these contractors went all the way to Varadkar for minor inconveniences at their job, essentially internal disputes? Upset about not getting the same perks as other employees? Signing restrictive NDAs for a job with exposure to extremely sensitive company processes and customer data? The more I read about these stories, the more I’m inclined to believe Haidt’s “Coddled Mind” and Turchin’s “Elite Overproduction” theories as the root of much of the problems we’re facing in the west today.

Vaslo 6y ago
I had never heard of those Haidt’s book or Turchin’s theories. Very interesting reads - thank you for sharing!
0xdde 6y ago
Is this a willful misreading? The "perk" mentioned is WFH during a pandemic. The mental health concerns in question are due to viewing extremely graphic content, not at all along the lines of the ridiculous "safe spaces" Haidt's book concerns itself with.
- mynameishere 6y ago
  viewing extremely graphic content Yeah, that's the job. Garbage men got to take out garbage. Do they want an extra bonus whenever the job matches the job description now?
  - zacharycohn 6y ago
    It's more like garbage men not being given gloves to do their work, or not provided health care when they slice their hand open on a broken bottle.
Macha 6y ago
Due to current covid-19 restrictions in Ireland, as a result of briefly having the world's highest per capita cases in early january, the government's policy is: > Only essential workers should travel to work. You should work from home unless you are providing an essential service and need to be physically present. https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/covid19/living_with_covid19_plan.html#l05988 https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/covid19/living_with_co... Facebook content moderation is unlikely to fall under "essential work" which is more concerned about healthcare, retail necessities (food/drink/medicine/cleaning supplies), and infrastructure. Given that they've pointed out moderators elsewhere can work from home, it's likely facebook cannot demonstrate that they need to be physically present to perform the work. So yes, it is a matter for the government to get involved in if Facebook or its subcontractors are not complying. As for Varadkar, getting involved is likely due to the fact this falls under his department's remit (as minister of enterprise), not his position as Tanaiste. But getting _personally_ involved is likely Leo looking for a good PR opportunity rather than the facebook employees insisting on the Tanaiste's personal attention. Or maybe he's just also their local TD, since his constituency is Dublin West where many people in Facebook offices in Dublin likely live.

secondcoming 6y ago

If you are a contractor you don't work for FB. You work for either a separate company or your personal one. There's nothing to stop these people from starting their own moderation company that provides all the services they're demanding. Then they should lobby FB to use this company instead.

bryan_w 6y ago
Here, on this venture capital forum, the idea of starting your own company is absurd.

yawaworht1978 6y ago

I have spent a total of 30 minutes of my life on Facebook, looking at a friends feed (I never had an account). There is always a few people who use the platform to express themselves in the most horrible way. 30 minutes were enough for me, there are many crazies out there using the platform for unamicable purposes. No way the moderators worst case is soft pork, unless they are only looking at flagged posts. I am not sure why people think they need the platform to "keep in touch with friends" . What happened to a good old call or a WhatsApp message or god forbid, meet in person.

scotcha1 6y ago
WhatsApp is owned by Facebook. And 30 minutes is a pretty short period to get a representative sample of a service used by billions for many different activities (messaging, video calls, hobby groups, marketplace). The 'feed' that you scroll through is definitely a mixed bag, but Facebook has added focus to more specific and niche apps over time. For my family we use Facebook because it is cross platform (25 people, several with Android, most with iPhone, and some that like to use it by web), everyone already has an account (ages from 25 to 65), and the quality of the service is high and consistent for both messages and video calls. We frequently do a video call with all members of the family across many devices and 'it just works'.} Also, meeting in person hasn't really been 'allowed' in almost a year. #covid19