7 ms·

We received a generic update at 05:31 UTC confirming that the app had been suspended due to abusive content (Sexual Content and Profanity: https://support.googl

We received a generic update at 05:31 UTC confirming that the app had been suspended due to abusive content (Sexual Content and Profanity: https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answer/9878810 https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ... ); we're following up to explain how Matrix and Element works and get this resolved.

pmlnr 6y ago
This is insane. This jeopardizes every email, xmpp, matrix, etc; basically any 3rd party application.
- ignoramous 6y ago
  History repeats over and over again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3597025 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3597025 For all the chaos, the Internet continues to be surprisingly consistent with one set of rules for BigTech and friends and another set of rules for the rest.
  - api 6y ago
    It’s largely based on who has more lawyers. Google would never suspend Twitter because they would be instantly sued... like within 24 hours... and by a top tier law firm.
- kreeben 6y ago
  All web browsers that are not Chrome, beware. You're next.
  - pmlnr 6y ago
    Those might be the exceptions, at least for now. Ever since Firefox's crusade against IE the majority of people seem to still know there are different ~programs~ apps to access the internet with. As long as Chrome is not the default in the overwhelming amount of the operating systems, this might even stay like this, which is why I'm extremely unhappy that Android ships with Chrome these days and not with a thin gui on top of the system webview, like it used to. EDIT: this ties in to the conversation I had on different platform recently, that it's getting arduous to make people understand that an app is not necessarily the same as the system behind it. Choosing an email client used to be a thing (Thunderbird, The Bat!, Outlook Express, mutt, etc; to name some across contrasting needs) not even too long ago. I despise that we came to a world where even the tech moderation fails to understand an app != protocol.
    - ainar-g 6y ago
      > As long as Chrome is not the default in the overwhelming amount of the operating systems, this might even stay like this, which is why I'm extremely unhappy that Android ships with Chrome these days and not with a thin gui on top of the system webview, like it used to. That is also why I was rather sad when Microsoft announced that they won't develop their own browser engines any more. I disliked IE as much as anybody else, but what I did like was the competition. With Edge switching to Blink, essentially becoming yet another partially-degooged Chrome, part of that competition is gone.
      - ttt0 6y ago
        > With Edge switching to Blink, essentially becoming yet another partially-degooged Chrome Now it sends half of your data to Google and the other half to Microsoft. That's an improvement, they decentralized spyware.
        ptero 6y ago
        Its 75% each way. And they will for many years work to reduce spying by lowering this percentage, to 50% in the asymptotic case.
    - LocalH 6y ago
      I would posit that Google has a vested interest in blurring the lines between apps and the protocols that drive them
  - znpy 6y ago
    I wonder why this hasn't been escalated to an anti-trust case yet.
    - waheoo 6y ago
      Because every time a libertarian raises the issue they get called a racist trumping alt right nazi. Y'all made your bed. True libertarians checked out a long time ago. We can either die for your sins against free speech or we can watch them come for you. I know what I chose.
      - geofft 6y ago
        Let me get this straight - you're saying "true libertarians" are people who decide to stop caring about advancing libertarian causes because someone else exercised their right of free speech, and now cheer for the loss of liberty of people they don't like?
        waheoo 6y ago
        No, I'm saying true libertarians have been getting ostracised by polite society for years now. I'm a massively left leaning libertarian, if it weren't for its consistently proven failures in practice I would be a commy. But here I am, over the years of commenting online I've been labeled a trump supporter, a Republican, alt right, white, male privileged, white privileged, racist, pseudo intellectual, biggoted, transphobic, and a Nazi.
        XorNot 6y ago
        Aren't libertarians all about the absolute sanctity of private property over all other concerns? How is a pro-business ideology remotely justifying government intervention in the practice and moderation decisions of a private company? Wouldn't the rectification involve the government specifically dictating their business behaviour?
        LocalH 6y ago
- qwertox 6y ago
  > This jeopardizes every email, xmpp, matrix, etc; basically any 3rd party application. Except of course Google's own applications. Gmail, Hangouts/Meet/whatever-it-currently-is, Chrome. Luckily it's not possible to display illegal content with Google's own apps /s I remember when my nephew got groomed on Google Plus, I was way to naive to think that this would not be occurring in Google's walled gardens. But in there, it turned out to be quasi-public.
  - Aerroon 6y ago
    >Luckily it's not possible to display illegal content with Google's own apps /s Perhaps one day they will make this argument to justify having to spy on everything you do with their software.
  - arduanika 6y ago
    > my nephew got groomed on Google Plus That is genuinely horrifying and I'm so sorry for him and your family.
  - devoutsalsa 6y ago
    Don’t worry. Google will kill it’s own chat apps. Sad but true.
  - sneak 6y ago
    The app in question wasn't suspended for illegal content, it was suspended for profanity.
    - pmlnr 6y ago
      That's ridiculous on it's own. I mean... got out on the street and listen to how people talk.
- veeti 6y ago
  Being suspended for user generated content has been a rite of passage for third party reddit clients. It's crazy how this happens again, again and again. https://old.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/96l0at/sync_for_reddit_suspended_from_google_play_xpost/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/96l0at/sync_for_re... https://old.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/6dwv1f/boost_for_reddit_has_been_suspended_from_google/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/6dwv1f/boost_for_r... https://old.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/5fqrr8/now_for_reddit_is_suspended_from_google_play/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/5fqrr8/now_for_red...
  - pmlnr 6y ago
    There is a significant difference there though: reddit is still a single, central entity. Matrix, XMPP, email, (and activitypub based systems, ssbc, and anything federated) could be connecting to one's own server. It could be a machine in my basement.
    - Erlangen 6y ago
      I don't see the difference. "Sync for reddit" a custom client for reddit. It was suspended for "hate speech". Then why isn't the official reddit app not suspended?
      - pmlnr 6y ago
        > I don't see the difference. ? 1. I install synapse (a matrix server) on my own machine. I install Element on my own phone. I connect one to another, and via the server to other servers. 2. I install a client that connects to reddit. Same reddit as everyone else. Same reddit as the reddit website. There is a rather significant difference, isn't there? EDIT addressing the 'hate speech' part, you are correct. If one reddit client is banned, all should be banned. But that is not true for communication apps, like Element.
- ksec 6y ago
  I pointed this out not long ago. When will it comes to Email? How is mailing list any different? And what about Chrome or Web Browser? Or they going to have built in Filter for website? Although without the reach of Google Search Engine having a filter or not makes no difference anyway. But it is great they are doing it, the more the better. People were extremely supportive on HN not long ago about banning speeches they dont like on Internet. Hopefully they finally learned something here. They opened the Pandora Box and there is nothing anyone could do until the Pendulum swing to its limit before swinging back.
- pmlnr 6y ago
  Update: from what I read, the reasoning can probably only effects systems where history is stored - slack, matrix, to name two. IRC most probably not, XMPP only if configured. Email: unlikely, it's a very different system.
mysterydip 6y ago
Could this be related to all the WSB shenanigans going on? Banning their chat groups makes them move to another, repeat?
- loceng 6y ago
  That would be absurd but compared to everything that happened in 2020, that could be very likely. A lot of $ billions are being lost which very well may impact a large amount of expectant people.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- rknintiet 6y ago
  After Discord banned their server, they moved to Telegram and the chat currently has more than 100k members. They would've banned Telegram if they wanted to shut WSB down
Arathorn 6y ago
We've just published an official blog post updating on the situation at https://element.io/blog/element-on-google-play-store/ https://element.io/blog/element-on-google-play-store/ which we'll keep updated as things progress.
- malwrar 6y ago
  Kudos on the quality of this post, makes me feel like the project is in level-headed hands!
- cxr 6y ago
  Will Matrix respond to this by pointing out that F-Droid is a viable option for people intending to publish or use FOSS apps?
  - Arathorn 6y ago
    good point; have updated the blog post.
    - cxr 6y ago
      > We're also looking into running our own F-Droid repository going forwards That's great to hear as well.
      - khimaros 6y ago
        i disagree. the main repository enforces reproducible builds and restricts trackers. please keep the main repo up to date.
        sneak 6y ago
        The main repository also signs everything with f-droid keys, not the original developer's. This means any compromise in f-droid compromises everything.
brnt 6y ago
Wonder if we can get Facebook, Twitter, WhatsApp off the Play store like this as well. "Side effects include: sexual content and coups."
- Daho0n 6y ago
  You could if it were small apps.
- sneak 6y ago
  No need to wonder. The Facebook and WhatsApp apps are why people buy phones. If a phone/platform can't run Facebook/WhatsApp, people will buy different ones that can.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
alex_reg 6y ago
This is probably not a coincidence or an oversight, but rather a "what can we get away with" attempt, similar to previous efforts to remove UBlock Origin. But why? Matrix is tiny and no threat to Google services. I'd personally expect three letter agencies to be involved here. The US government has been aggressively going after encrypted communication for years, with extreme tactics like personal intimidation and secret courts. Read this story about a secure email provider if you doubt it. [1] This doesn't work so well with EU based companies, even though they have been pushing EU governments to do the same. (There recently was a leak that the encryption ban currently discussed in the EU parliament has some roots in Five Eyes efforts and that governments were pressured by the US to support it. Published by FAZ or Sueddeutsche, I'm trying to find the article...) I also doubt that iMessage and What's App gaining "backdoors" to their encryption is purely motivated by user experience. At a time where a lot of people want to switch communication platforms, nipping any such efforts early might well be viewed as important. "Abusive content" is a convenient excuse that can be arbitrarily applied. [1] https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/how-the-government-killed-a-secure-e-mail-company https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/how-the-...
- zaroth 6y ago
  > But why? Matrix is tiny and no threat to Google services. There is an absolutely unprecedented shift going on as we speak, one of those groundswell events that have the potential to shift usage habits of hundreds of millions of people. We got a taste just recently with the shift away from WhatsApp based on a TOS update. Imagine arguing last year that ten million users would jump ship based on a TOS change? Matrix, and services of its ilk, are absolutely an existential threat to Google in the next 20 years. Don’t forget that Google has all the threat intel you could possibly imagine from their existing analytics platforms. They will see the shift coming before anyone. I can absolutely see them acting now to try to disrupt the initial rumblings of a seismic event that has the potential to go totally viral and popular sentiment shifts against megacorps. Killing them gets exponentially harder over the next 6 months if there were a successful campaign across the internet to switch to these services, and 2021 is very close to seeing a very significant grassroots campaign like that truly take off. Certainly the time has never been better and the populace never been more primed to make the move out of the walled gardens.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

pmlnr 6y ago

This is insane. This jeopardizes every email, xmpp, matrix, etc; basically any 3rd party application.

ignoramous 6y ago
History repeats over and over again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3597025 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3597025 For all the chaos, the Internet continues to be surprisingly consistent with one set of rules for BigTech and friends and another set of rules for the rest.
- api 6y ago
  It’s largely based on who has more lawyers. Google would never suspend Twitter because they would be instantly sued... like within 24 hours... and by a top tier law firm.
kreeben 6y ago
All web browsers that are not Chrome, beware. You're next.
- pmlnr 6y ago
  Those might be the exceptions, at least for now. Ever since Firefox's crusade against IE the majority of people seem to still know there are different ~programs~ apps to access the internet with. As long as Chrome is not the default in the overwhelming amount of the operating systems, this might even stay like this, which is why I'm extremely unhappy that Android ships with Chrome these days and not with a thin gui on top of the system webview, like it used to. EDIT: this ties in to the conversation I had on different platform recently, that it's getting arduous to make people understand that an app is not necessarily the same as the system behind it. Choosing an email client used to be a thing (Thunderbird, The Bat!, Outlook Express, mutt, etc; to name some across contrasting needs) not even too long ago. I despise that we came to a world where even the tech moderation fails to understand an app != protocol.
  - ainar-g 6y ago
    > As long as Chrome is not the default in the overwhelming amount of the operating systems, this might even stay like this, which is why I'm extremely unhappy that Android ships with Chrome these days and not with a thin gui on top of the system webview, like it used to. That is also why I was rather sad when Microsoft announced that they won't develop their own browser engines any more. I disliked IE as much as anybody else, but what I did like was the competition. With Edge switching to Blink, essentially becoming yet another partially-degooged Chrome, part of that competition is gone.
    - ttt0 6y ago
      > With Edge switching to Blink, essentially becoming yet another partially-degooged Chrome Now it sends half of your data to Google and the other half to Microsoft. That's an improvement, they decentralized spyware.
      - ptero 6y ago
        Its 75% each way. And they will for many years work to reduce spying by lowering this percentage, to 50% in the asymptotic case.
  - LocalH 6y ago
    I would posit that Google has a vested interest in blurring the lines between apps and the protocols that drive them
- znpy 6y ago
  I wonder why this hasn't been escalated to an anti-trust case yet.
  - waheoo 6y ago
    Because every time a libertarian raises the issue they get called a racist trumping alt right nazi. Y'all made your bed. True libertarians checked out a long time ago. We can either die for your sins against free speech or we can watch them come for you. I know what I chose.
    - geofft 6y ago
      Let me get this straight - you're saying "true libertarians" are people who decide to stop caring about advancing libertarian causes because someone else exercised their right of free speech, and now cheer for the loss of liberty of people they don't like?
      - waheoo 6y ago
        No, I'm saying true libertarians have been getting ostracised by polite society for years now. I'm a massively left leaning libertarian, if it weren't for its consistently proven failures in practice I would be a commy. But here I am, over the years of commenting online I've been labeled a trump supporter, a Republican, alt right, white, male privileged, white privileged, racist, pseudo intellectual, biggoted, transphobic, and a Nazi.
        XorNot 6y ago
        Aren't libertarians all about the absolute sanctity of private property over all other concerns? How is a pro-business ideology remotely justifying government intervention in the practice and moderation decisions of a private company? Wouldn't the rectification involve the government specifically dictating their business behaviour?
        LocalH 6y ago
qwertox 6y ago
> This jeopardizes every email, xmpp, matrix, etc; basically any 3rd party application. Except of course Google's own applications. Gmail, Hangouts/Meet/whatever-it-currently-is, Chrome. Luckily it's not possible to display illegal content with Google's own apps /s I remember when my nephew got groomed on Google Plus, I was way to naive to think that this would not be occurring in Google's walled gardens. But in there, it turned out to be quasi-public.
- Aerroon 6y ago
  >Luckily it's not possible to display illegal content with Google's own apps /s Perhaps one day they will make this argument to justify having to spy on everything you do with their software.
- arduanika 6y ago
  > my nephew got groomed on Google Plus That is genuinely horrifying and I'm so sorry for him and your family.
- devoutsalsa 6y ago
  Don’t worry. Google will kill it’s own chat apps. Sad but true.
- sneak 6y ago
  The app in question wasn't suspended for illegal content, it was suspended for profanity.
  - pmlnr 6y ago
    That's ridiculous on it's own. I mean... got out on the street and listen to how people talk.
veeti 6y ago
Being suspended for user generated content has been a rite of passage for third party reddit clients. It's crazy how this happens again, again and again. https://old.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/96l0at/sync_for_reddit_suspended_from_google_play_xpost/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/96l0at/sync_for_re... https://old.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/6dwv1f/boost_for_reddit_has_been_suspended_from_google/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/6dwv1f/boost_for_r... https://old.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/5fqrr8/now_for_reddit_is_suspended_from_google_play/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/5fqrr8/now_for_red...
- pmlnr 6y ago
  There is a significant difference there though: reddit is still a single, central entity. Matrix, XMPP, email, (and activitypub based systems, ssbc, and anything federated) could be connecting to one's own server. It could be a machine in my basement.
  - Erlangen 6y ago
    I don't see the difference. "Sync for reddit" a custom client for reddit. It was suspended for "hate speech". Then why isn't the official reddit app not suspended?
    - pmlnr 6y ago
      > I don't see the difference. ? 1. I install synapse (a matrix server) on my own machine. I install Element on my own phone. I connect one to another, and via the server to other servers. 2. I install a client that connects to reddit. Same reddit as everyone else. Same reddit as the reddit website. There is a rather significant difference, isn't there? EDIT addressing the 'hate speech' part, you are correct. If one reddit client is banned, all should be banned. But that is not true for communication apps, like Element.
ksec 6y ago
I pointed this out not long ago. When will it comes to Email? How is mailing list any different? And what about Chrome or Web Browser? Or they going to have built in Filter for website? Although without the reach of Google Search Engine having a filter or not makes no difference anyway. But it is great they are doing it, the more the better. People were extremely supportive on HN not long ago about banning speeches they dont like on Internet. Hopefully they finally learned something here. They opened the Pandora Box and there is nothing anyone could do until the Pendulum swing to its limit before swinging back.
pmlnr 6y ago
Update: from what I read, the reasoning can probably only effects systems where history is stored - slack, matrix, to name two. IRC most probably not, XMPP only if configured. Email: unlikely, it's a very different system.

mysterydip 6y ago

Could this be related to all the WSB shenanigans going on? Banning their chat groups makes them move to another, repeat?

loceng 6y ago
That would be absurd but compared to everything that happened in 2020, that could be very likely. A lot of $ billions are being lost which very well may impact a large amount of expectant people.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
rknintiet 6y ago
After Discord banned their server, they moved to Telegram and the chat currently has more than 100k members. They would've banned Telegram if they wanted to shut WSB down

Arathorn 6y ago

We've just published an official blog post updating on the situation at https://element.io/blog/element-on-google-play-store/ https://element.io/blog/element-on-google-play-store/ which we'll keep updated as things progress.

malwrar 6y ago
Kudos on the quality of this post, makes me feel like the project is in level-headed hands!
cxr 6y ago
Will Matrix respond to this by pointing out that F-Droid is a viable option for people intending to publish or use FOSS apps?
- Arathorn 6y ago
  good point; have updated the blog post.
  - cxr 6y ago
    > We're also looking into running our own F-Droid repository going forwards That's great to hear as well.
    - khimaros 6y ago
      i disagree. the main repository enforces reproducible builds and restricts trackers. please keep the main repo up to date.
      - sneak 6y ago
        The main repository also signs everything with f-droid keys, not the original developer's. This means any compromise in f-droid compromises everything.

brnt 6y ago

Wonder if we can get Facebook, Twitter, WhatsApp off the Play store like this as well. "Side effects include: sexual content and coups."

Daho0n 6y ago
You could if it were small apps.
sneak 6y ago
No need to wonder. The Facebook and WhatsApp apps are why people buy phones. If a phone/platform can't run Facebook/WhatsApp, people will buy different ones that can.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

alex_reg 6y ago

This is probably not a coincidence or an oversight, but rather a "what can we get away with" attempt, similar to previous efforts to remove UBlock Origin. But why? Matrix is tiny and no threat to Google services. I'd personally expect three letter agencies to be involved here. The US government has been aggressively going after encrypted communication for years, with extreme tactics like personal intimidation and secret courts. Read this story about a secure email provider if you doubt it. [1] This doesn't work so well with EU based companies, even though they have been pushing EU governments to do the same. (There recently was a leak that the encryption ban currently discussed in the EU parliament has some roots in Five Eyes efforts and that governments were pressured by the US to support it. Published by FAZ or Sueddeutsche, I'm trying to find the article...) I also doubt that iMessage and What's App gaining "backdoors" to their encryption is purely motivated by user experience. At a time where a lot of people want to switch communication platforms, nipping any such efforts early might well be viewed as important. "Abusive content" is a convenient excuse that can be arbitrarily applied. [1] https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/how-the-government-killed-a-secure-e-mail-company https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/how-the-...

zaroth 6y ago
> But why? Matrix is tiny and no threat to Google services. There is an absolutely unprecedented shift going on as we speak, one of those groundswell events that have the potential to shift usage habits of hundreds of millions of people. We got a taste just recently with the shift away from WhatsApp based on a TOS update. Imagine arguing last year that ten million users would jump ship based on a TOS change? Matrix, and services of its ilk, are absolutely an existential threat to Google in the next 20 years. Don’t forget that Google has all the threat intel you could possibly imagine from their existing analytics platforms. They will see the shift coming before anyone. I can absolutely see them acting now to try to disrupt the initial rumblings of a seismic event that has the potential to go totally viral and popular sentiment shifts against megacorps. Killing them gets exponentially harder over the next 6 months if there were a successful campaign across the internet to switch to these services, and 2021 is very close to seeing a very significant grassroots campaign like that truly take off. Certainly the time has never been better and the populace never been more primed to make the move out of the walled gardens.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]