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I wonder if this will become a watershed moment for the EU. I've always been an ardent believer in the European program, both for historical reasons (I have Fr

by cdavid 6y ago

I wonder if this will become a watershed moment for the EU. I've always been an ardent believer in the European program, both for historical reasons (I have French and German grand parents), but also because for all its warts, I believed the EU had a competent bureaucracy, able to go above the pettyness of national politics. French politicians of all side love scapegoating EU for their own failures. To say that the current situation shattered that conviction would be an understatement. I have no admiration for the Trump administration, but they objectively did almost everything better. It is also amusing and tragic to see all the core countries (France, Germany, Netherlands, etc.) all doing badly. They cannot frame this as a "cultural" or national failure of specific country like in 2011 at the peak of "Greek" crisis. And 2021 may well be worse than 2020 in number of life affected as populations are tired of various movement constraints, new virus strains coming up, etc. [edit] my comment comparing US vs the EU was about vaccines, not about the COVID handling in general. For the latter, comparing policies and impact is much harder. [edit 2] On #deaths, most countries in the EU and Europe in general did not do that much better than the US: France, Spain, Italy, Belgium, the Netherlands all have around ~0.08 - 0.12 % of their population that died from the disease (quite worse for Belgium). And Germany will likely reach that range as well.

trianglem 6y ago
The Trump administration spewed misinformation from day one that caused massive dissonance in dealing with the problem. Saying they did better when they had literally no plan and let 400,000 people die is incredible dissembling and most likely a political statement than a logical one. They literally dissuaded people from using masks.
- mikem170 6y ago
  A lot of people in our democracy might not agree with your assessment of this pandemic. A lot of people feel that 1 in 750 people dying, mostly older with comorbidities, is not the disaster for society that some seem to think it is. A lot of people think that giving up a year or two of their social and economic lives is not worth trying to avoid a 1 in 750, or 0.13%, chance of dying. Especially those, like the young, who have less than 1 in 100,000 chance of dying. Trying to tell them this is a catastrophe based on the numbers isn't going to work.
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    More people die the less you control the spread of the virus, the overall death rate at this point in time is not a good gauge of the potential impact of the pandemic.
    - mikem170 6y ago
      But we live in democracies, and there are a lot of people who feel differently than you might. Not just Trump. They look at the same numbers and dangers and don't agree. Besides, the authority and responsibility to respond to a pandemic (issue health orders, closings, quarantines, and lock downs) rests with the states and not the president or congress. EDIT: removed a remark about Fauci and herd immunity, I thought I read this but couldn't find a reference. My apologies.
      - maxerickson 6y ago
        He didn't say that. He has made comments that we can likely get there sometime this year if we have widespread administration of vaccines. Which widespread vaccination is a lot cheaper than other measures, but it's not doing nothing either.
        Throwawayaerlei 6y ago
        Fauci said we were getting close to herd immunity. He didn't say that. Not sure it matters when he recently admitted he was lying in stages about the percentages to encourage people to get vaccinated. After that and his self-admitted lying in the masking debacle, I'm not sure why anyone still listens to him. Credibility is one of the most precious resources in public health, and our public health authorities including him have burned through a great deal of it.
        maxerickson 6y ago
        They've since edited their comment to remove what they had said when I replied, which was How much worse do you think it could have been? Fauci said we were getting close to herd immunity. Do you think as many people would have dies again next year? 1 in 250 when finished? I don't understand why Fauci has made those choices and still find him plenty credible. And then, his credibility isn't really an issue when the supposed statement is a complete misunderstanding of the actual situation (we are nowhere near herd immunity via infection or vaccination).
- esja 6y ago
  “Literally no plan”? How did you arrive at that conclusion? Even the most cursory effort would tell you it’s not true.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    What was the plan? Other than "let the states handle it". Which is the same as "no plan".
    - esja 6y ago
      Right now a lot of people are getting vaccinated - an unprecedented achievement. Did that happen by magic? That’s one example that a federal plan existed, and there are plenty of others if you care to look for yourself. It’s been 12 months now since the US banned flights from China. A lot has happened since then. People can differ on whether the federal plan was a good one (I happen to believe it wasn’t very good), but to believe there was no plan at all is just mental self-harm.
      - triceratops 6y ago
        > Right now a lot of people are getting vaccinated But we are far behind schedule and projections. 20m people were supposed be vaccinated in December. Only 1m were actually vaccinated.[1] 5% is a failing grade. > That’s one example that a federal plan existed Even the federal vaccination plan under Trump was essentially "leave it to the states". Now I accept that in these circumstances state governments are better equipped to understand the needs of their people. But if the communication about shipments - size and dates - is bad, states can't plan efficiently. And that's what happened.[2] 1. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/23/covid-vaccine-us-has-vaccinated-1-million-people-out-of-goal-of-20-million-for-december.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/23/covid-vaccine-us-has-vaccina... 2. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jan/27/ron-klain/trump-vaccine-plan-left-logistics-states-it-did-ex/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jan/27/ron-klain/...
        esja 6y ago
- pelasaco 6y ago
  True, but if Americans are being vaccinated more than EU now, is mainly because of him.
  - trianglem 6y ago
    Not at all, it’s because the states are doing what they can inspire of no federal strategy.
d1zzy 6y ago
> but they objectively did almost everything better. Sure, if you ignore everything else they didn't. Even restricting the discussion to COVID, the reason why a lot more people have, are and will be getting infected (and die) is because for most of the year Trump didn't treat it as a pandemic. All those stupid things he said on Twitter and to the press throughout the year about the pandemic, all of that have real life consequences, consequences that we will still be dealing with at least for the rest of 2021. It's hard enough to convince most of the population to follow pandemic procedures without having the leader of the country constantly say stupid things. Now it seems impossible.
marcinzm 6y ago
The US has twice the per capita covid deaths as Germany. Great success right there, hurrah!
- InTheArena 6y ago
  More than anything else that appears to be lack of timing. European and USA rates have generally evened out. The virus don’t care what country you’re in.
  - marcinzm 6y ago
    >The virus don’t care what country you’re in. Except New Zealand. Virus really hates that place.
    - pelasaco 6y ago
      Taiwan too!
- partiallypro 6y ago
  Germany's death rate since the fall is higher than the US though. The US largely bungled the initial response, where as Europe seems to have bungled the ongoing problem.
  - freeflight 6y ago
    > Germany's death rate since the fall is higher than the US though. That is, if you actually trust the latest data coming out of the US, which could be a very misleading thing to do [0] [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/us/politics/trump-cdc-coronavirus.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/us/politics/trump-cdc-cor...
    - adventured 6y ago
      Correct, the data shouldn't be trusted. The US has been directly financially incentivizing the inflation of the number of Covid deaths, so the real figures are likely lower.
CodeGlitch 6y ago
The EU fails yet again to handle a crisis. It's great at some things (gdpr) which are slow burners... But when having to make quick decisions the cracks start to show. Being a Brit I do hope they come through this ok because I feel the world needs the EU.

by cdavid 6y ago

trianglem 6y ago

The Trump administration spewed misinformation from day one that caused massive dissonance in dealing with the problem. Saying they did better when they had literally no plan and let 400,000 people die is incredible dissembling and most likely a political statement than a logical one. They literally dissuaded people from using masks.

mikem170 6y ago
A lot of people in our democracy might not agree with your assessment of this pandemic. A lot of people feel that 1 in 750 people dying, mostly older with comorbidities, is not the disaster for society that some seem to think it is. A lot of people think that giving up a year or two of their social and economic lives is not worth trying to avoid a 1 in 750, or 0.13%, chance of dying. Especially those, like the young, who have less than 1 in 100,000 chance of dying. Trying to tell them this is a catastrophe based on the numbers isn't going to work.
- maxerickson 6y ago
  More people die the less you control the spread of the virus, the overall death rate at this point in time is not a good gauge of the potential impact of the pandemic.
  - mikem170 6y ago
    But we live in democracies, and there are a lot of people who feel differently than you might. Not just Trump. They look at the same numbers and dangers and don't agree. Besides, the authority and responsibility to respond to a pandemic (issue health orders, closings, quarantines, and lock downs) rests with the states and not the president or congress. EDIT: removed a remark about Fauci and herd immunity, I thought I read this but couldn't find a reference. My apologies.
    - maxerickson 6y ago
      He didn't say that. He has made comments that we can likely get there sometime this year if we have widespread administration of vaccines. Which widespread vaccination is a lot cheaper than other measures, but it's not doing nothing either.
      - Throwawayaerlei 6y ago
        Fauci said we were getting close to herd immunity. He didn't say that. Not sure it matters when he recently admitted he was lying in stages about the percentages to encourage people to get vaccinated. After that and his self-admitted lying in the masking debacle, I'm not sure why anyone still listens to him. Credibility is one of the most precious resources in public health, and our public health authorities including him have burned through a great deal of it.
        maxerickson 6y ago
        They've since edited their comment to remove what they had said when I replied, which was How much worse do you think it could have been? Fauci said we were getting close to herd immunity. Do you think as many people would have dies again next year? 1 in 250 when finished? I don't understand why Fauci has made those choices and still find him plenty credible. And then, his credibility isn't really an issue when the supposed statement is a complete misunderstanding of the actual situation (we are nowhere near herd immunity via infection or vaccination).
esja 6y ago
“Literally no plan”? How did you arrive at that conclusion? Even the most cursory effort would tell you it’s not true.
- triceratops 6y ago
  What was the plan? Other than "let the states handle it". Which is the same as "no plan".
  - esja 6y ago
    Right now a lot of people are getting vaccinated - an unprecedented achievement. Did that happen by magic? That’s one example that a federal plan existed, and there are plenty of others if you care to look for yourself. It’s been 12 months now since the US banned flights from China. A lot has happened since then. People can differ on whether the federal plan was a good one (I happen to believe it wasn’t very good), but to believe there was no plan at all is just mental self-harm.
    - triceratops 6y ago
      > Right now a lot of people are getting vaccinated But we are far behind schedule and projections. 20m people were supposed be vaccinated in December. Only 1m were actually vaccinated.[1] 5% is a failing grade. > That’s one example that a federal plan existed Even the federal vaccination plan under Trump was essentially "leave it to the states". Now I accept that in these circumstances state governments are better equipped to understand the needs of their people. But if the communication about shipments - size and dates - is bad, states can't plan efficiently. And that's what happened.[2] 1. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/23/covid-vaccine-us-has-vaccinated-1-million-people-out-of-goal-of-20-million-for-december.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/23/covid-vaccine-us-has-vaccina... 2. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jan/27/ron-klain/trump-vaccine-plan-left-logistics-states-it-did-ex/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jan/27/ron-klain/...
      - esja 6y ago
pelasaco 6y ago
True, but if Americans are being vaccinated more than EU now, is mainly because of him.
- trianglem 6y ago
  Not at all, it’s because the states are doing what they can inspire of no federal strategy.

d1zzy 6y ago

> but they objectively did almost everything better. Sure, if you ignore everything else they didn't. Even restricting the discussion to COVID, the reason why a lot more people have, are and will be getting infected (and die) is because for most of the year Trump didn't treat it as a pandemic. All those stupid things he said on Twitter and to the press throughout the year about the pandemic, all of that have real life consequences, consequences that we will still be dealing with at least for the rest of 2021. It's hard enough to convince most of the population to follow pandemic procedures without having the leader of the country constantly say stupid things. Now it seems impossible.

marcinzm 6y ago

The US has twice the per capita covid deaths as Germany. Great success right there, hurrah!

InTheArena 6y ago
More than anything else that appears to be lack of timing. European and USA rates have generally evened out. The virus don’t care what country you’re in.
- marcinzm 6y ago
  >The virus don’t care what country you’re in. Except New Zealand. Virus really hates that place.
  - pelasaco 6y ago
    Taiwan too!
partiallypro 6y ago
Germany's death rate since the fall is higher than the US though. The US largely bungled the initial response, where as Europe seems to have bungled the ongoing problem.
- freeflight 6y ago
  > Germany's death rate since the fall is higher than the US though. That is, if you actually trust the latest data coming out of the US, which could be a very misleading thing to do [0] [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/us/politics/trump-cdc-coronavirus.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/us/politics/trump-cdc-cor...
  - adventured 6y ago
    Correct, the data shouldn't be trusted. The US has been directly financially incentivizing the inflation of the number of Covid deaths, so the real figures are likely lower.

CodeGlitch 6y ago

The EU fails yet again to handle a crisis. It's great at some things (gdpr) which are slow burners... But when having to make quick decisions the cracks start to show. Being a Brit I do hope they come through this ok because I feel the world needs the EU.