6 ms·

Surround sound from lightweight roll-to-roll printed loudspeaker paper

95 points by prostoalex 6y ago

wishinghand 6y ago
I’d love to have something like this over my board gaming table and not only play location ambiance through it but play clips in the spatial location of my players based on what they here.
- mensetmanusman 6y ago
  Fun idea :)
- prox 6y ago
  So is this feasible to create as a hobbyist?
  - jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
    Well, ignoring snazzy materials that take a pretty sophisticated factory like the original link, you could make something like this via a bunch of small full range drivers mounted in a ring and some of the dsp stuff available now. The computational requirements are low enough you could probably fit it onto a lot of maker style hobby controller boards too.
    - wishinghand 6y ago
      Probably easier to mount and get my fiance on board too.
- m463 6y ago
  If you could put one IN the table, maybe you could vibrate your players and have them run up the middle... touchdown!
anfractuosity 6y ago
Intriguing, it sounds like this uses the piezoelectric effect, but could you DIY a surround sound electrostatic speaker using the same kind of form factor?
- cesaref 6y ago
  Well, not electrostatic, as that requires static charge, stators, and rather high voltages (10s of kv) which is unlikely to happen in a piece of paper. The basic approach reminds me of the flat panel speakers that came out of QinetiQ I think in the early 2000s, that a large surface vibrating somewhat chaotically doesn't suffer from the directional phasing you see with pistonic movement of the surface. I'd definitely like to hear how this setup sounds. I guess another interesting fact is that many traditional speaker cones are made from paper, it's amazing stuff!
  - birdman3131 6y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKIye4RZ-5k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKIye4RZ-5k Tech Ingredients did a fairly good video on Distributed Mode Loudspeakers.
    - app4soft 6y ago
      And you know what would happen if man playing a lot with sound, right?[0] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBHIc6LwH6o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBHIc6LwH6o
S_A_P 6y ago
I seem to remember reading about paper thin Ambisonic speakers since I was a kid in the 80s reading Stereo Review. It looks like this sort of thing is finally coming to fruition. I am assuming that you would need to augment these with a traditional subwoofer since you cant move much air with paper thin diaphragms.
- Animats 6y ago
  Yes, those were first made in the 1980s. They showed up in a book called "The Best of Japan" (1987), a picture book of 1980s Japanese technology. Probably coming soon to musical Xmas cards. Now if the e-paper display people ever get their act together and get the price down, this could have more potential.
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  Needing a subwoofer would make this technology useful for home cinemas where the deep bass can acceptably be issued from a single subwoofer. However, for music in surround-sound mixes, it would be less ideal because those music mixes often assume a full bass range is available from each of the five positions in a 5.0 setup.
  - TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
    There's no directionality below around 200Hz, because the wavelength is around 1.7m, which is slightly wider than the space between the average pair of ears. (Unless you're a whale.) It doesn't matter if you mix in n.0 for any value of n>1 - all you get from multiple subwoofers is phase cancellation at room nodes, not location information.
    - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
      There must be some reason, then, that classical music labels producing surround-sound SACDs recommend full-size speakers at all 5.0 positions, and call a subwoofer a compromise for those unable to have full-size surround speakers.
lifeisstillgood 6y ago
So you can almost have quiet zones and sound zones in same open space.
- datameta 6y ago
  Perhaps there could be dilineation zones using white noise generators to separate two discrete parts of a social space.
  - hammock 6y ago
    It'd be like rolling a radio dial, except your feet are the dial
Sebastian_09 6y ago
Fascinating - there's a video from the paper in a book format they did here https://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~schg/t-paper/wordpress/t-book/ https://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~schg/t-paper/wordpress/t-bo... (2015) Looking forward to cool applications, though it's probably going to be leaflets & magazin ads with sound first
- lambda_obrien 6y ago
  > it's probably going to be leaflets & magazin ads with sound first Advertising is truly the worst thing humans have done in history, IMO. All advertising has done is made everyone think they aren't good enough and to buy too much crap and kill our planet and even cause wars and uprisings. Also: Don't try to confuse things you advertiser-pricks: "advertising" is whenever you cram your crap in front of my face or into my ears in places I don't want to or need to see it, like TV ads, print ads, or a speaker in the newspaper someday. No, industry events aren't "advertising", that's "networking" and people choose to go there. No, it's not "advertising" if Amazon tries to suggest useful things I might need/want, that's a "recommendation" and people choose to see them (somewhat). No, classified ads are not "advertising", regardless of the name, that's a "market" and people choose to look there.
  - chrisco255 6y ago
    As much as I hate ads, as a former small business owner, I can tell you it's not easy growing a biz on word-of-mouth alone.
    - uniqueid 6y ago
      How much of it not being easy is due to other people's ads though?
rotten 6y ago
Soon I'll be able to have high quality sound embedded in my business card. And when I open a magazine while killing time in the line at my favorite box grocery store, I'll get musical ads. And maybe my driver's license can talk to the cop and tell him I'm a good guy. And maybe I could make some paper dolls and integrate them with Alexa and have conversations with them.
- dekhn 6y ago
  I got a birthday card, probably in 1983 or so, that opened and made music (it had a battery, speaker, amplifier, and memory chip, all stuffed inside a piece of paper). A bit bulky, but I can't see w hy that tech couldn't be improved in the past 37 years.
- medium_burrito 6y ago
  I want smart toilet paper. For example, it could tell me if the scout wipe came back clean without me even needing to take a look.
Wingman4l7 6y ago
I suspect this is Polyvinylidene Fluoride Piezoelectric Film (PVDF). Not a new material -- there was a failed Kickstarter to make speakers out of this stuff 4 years ago: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/richardhaberkern/speakers-thinner-than-paper-pvdf-piezo-film-techno https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/richardhaberkern/speake...
runawaybottle 6y ago
Speaker advancements have lowered my quality of life. Unfortunately, I live in one of those neighborhoods where people walk around with those little speakers blasting at full.
- CyberDildonics 6y ago
  This is not relevant to what is being discussed. Also if anything that is due to battery advancements.
fdgwhite 6y ago
This reminded me of Magic Alex who conned The Beatles into a job as the electronics director at Apple (music not computers) in the early 1970s. Some of his claimed inventions were: “telephone that responded to its owner's voice and could identify who was calling,[10] a force field that would surround the Beatles' homes, an X-ray camera, paint that would make anything invisible, car paint that would change colour by flicking a switch, and WALLPAPER SPEAKERS,[11] which would actually be a part of the wallpaper.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Alex https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Alex
webnrrd2k 6y ago
I think the real killer application of this would be as active sound cancelation for open-offices, also to remove driving noise from inside cars. I wonder if a large array of these in a fence could work to remove noise pollution from a house, e.g. one near a freeway or airport?

95 points by prostoalex 6y ago

I’d love to have something like this over my board gaming table and not only play location ambiance through it but play clips in the spatial location of my players based on what they here.

mensetmanusman 6y ago
Fun idea :)
prox 6y ago
So is this feasible to create as a hobbyist?
- jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
  Well, ignoring snazzy materials that take a pretty sophisticated factory like the original link, you could make something like this via a bunch of small full range drivers mounted in a ring and some of the dsp stuff available now. The computational requirements are low enough you could probably fit it onto a lot of maker style hobby controller boards too.
  - wishinghand 6y ago
    Probably easier to mount and get my fiance on board too.
m463 6y ago
If you could put one IN the table, maybe you could vibrate your players and have them run up the middle... touchdown!

anfractuosity 6y ago

Intriguing, it sounds like this uses the piezoelectric effect, but could you DIY a surround sound electrostatic speaker using the same kind of form factor?

cesaref 6y ago
Well, not electrostatic, as that requires static charge, stators, and rather high voltages (10s of kv) which is unlikely to happen in a piece of paper. The basic approach reminds me of the flat panel speakers that came out of QinetiQ I think in the early 2000s, that a large surface vibrating somewhat chaotically doesn't suffer from the directional phasing you see with pistonic movement of the surface. I'd definitely like to hear how this setup sounds. I guess another interesting fact is that many traditional speaker cones are made from paper, it's amazing stuff!
- birdman3131 6y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKIye4RZ-5k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKIye4RZ-5k Tech Ingredients did a fairly good video on Distributed Mode Loudspeakers.
  - app4soft 6y ago
    And you know what would happen if man playing a lot with sound, right?[0] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBHIc6LwH6o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBHIc6LwH6o

S_A_P 6y ago

I seem to remember reading about paper thin Ambisonic speakers since I was a kid in the 80s reading Stereo Review. It looks like this sort of thing is finally coming to fruition. I am assuming that you would need to augment these with a traditional subwoofer since you cant move much air with paper thin diaphragms.

Animats 6y ago
Yes, those were first made in the 1980s. They showed up in a book called "The Best of Japan" (1987), a picture book of 1980s Japanese technology. Probably coming soon to musical Xmas cards. Now if the e-paper display people ever get their act together and get the price down, this could have more potential.
Mediterraneo10 6y ago
Needing a subwoofer would make this technology useful for home cinemas where the deep bass can acceptably be issued from a single subwoofer. However, for music in surround-sound mixes, it would be less ideal because those music mixes often assume a full bass range is available from each of the five positions in a 5.0 setup.
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
  There's no directionality below around 200Hz, because the wavelength is around 1.7m, which is slightly wider than the space between the average pair of ears. (Unless you're a whale.) It doesn't matter if you mix in n.0 for any value of n>1 - all you get from multiple subwoofers is phase cancellation at room nodes, not location information.
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    There must be some reason, then, that classical music labels producing surround-sound SACDs recommend full-size speakers at all 5.0 positions, and call a subwoofer a compromise for those unable to have full-size surround speakers.

lifeisstillgood 6y ago

So you can almost have quiet zones and sound zones in same open space.

datameta 6y ago
Perhaps there could be dilineation zones using white noise generators to separate two discrete parts of a social space.
- hammock 6y ago
  It'd be like rolling a radio dial, except your feet are the dial

Sebastian_09 6y ago

Fascinating - there's a video from the paper in a book format they did here https://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~schg/t-paper/wordpress/t-book/ https://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~schg/t-paper/wordpress/t-bo... (2015) Looking forward to cool applications, though it's probably going to be leaflets & magazin ads with sound first

lambda_obrien 6y ago
> it's probably going to be leaflets & magazin ads with sound first Advertising is truly the worst thing humans have done in history, IMO. All advertising has done is made everyone think they aren't good enough and to buy too much crap and kill our planet and even cause wars and uprisings. Also: Don't try to confuse things you advertiser-pricks: "advertising" is whenever you cram your crap in front of my face or into my ears in places I don't want to or need to see it, like TV ads, print ads, or a speaker in the newspaper someday. No, industry events aren't "advertising", that's "networking" and people choose to go there. No, it's not "advertising" if Amazon tries to suggest useful things I might need/want, that's a "recommendation" and people choose to see them (somewhat). No, classified ads are not "advertising", regardless of the name, that's a "market" and people choose to look there.
- chrisco255 6y ago
  As much as I hate ads, as a former small business owner, I can tell you it's not easy growing a biz on word-of-mouth alone.
  - uniqueid 6y ago
    How much of it not being easy is due to other people's ads though?

rotten 6y ago

Soon I'll be able to have high quality sound embedded in my business card. And when I open a magazine while killing time in the line at my favorite box grocery store, I'll get musical ads. And maybe my driver's license can talk to the cop and tell him I'm a good guy. And maybe I could make some paper dolls and integrate them with Alexa and have conversations with them.

dekhn 6y ago
I got a birthday card, probably in 1983 or so, that opened and made music (it had a battery, speaker, amplifier, and memory chip, all stuffed inside a piece of paper). A bit bulky, but I can't see w hy that tech couldn't be improved in the past 37 years.
medium_burrito 6y ago
I want smart toilet paper. For example, it could tell me if the scout wipe came back clean without me even needing to take a look.

Wingman4l7 6y ago

I suspect this is Polyvinylidene Fluoride Piezoelectric Film (PVDF). Not a new material -- there was a failed Kickstarter to make speakers out of this stuff 4 years ago: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/richardhaberkern/speakers-thinner-than-paper-pvdf-piezo-film-techno https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/richardhaberkern/speake...

runawaybottle 6y ago

Speaker advancements have lowered my quality of life. Unfortunately, I live in one of those neighborhoods where people walk around with those little speakers blasting at full.

CyberDildonics 6y ago
This is not relevant to what is being discussed. Also if anything that is due to battery advancements.

fdgwhite 6y ago

This reminded me of Magic Alex who conned The Beatles into a job as the electronics director at Apple (music not computers) in the early 1970s. Some of his claimed inventions were: “telephone that responded to its owner's voice and could identify who was calling,[10] a force field that would surround the Beatles' homes, an X-ray camera, paint that would make anything invisible, car paint that would change colour by flicking a switch, and WALLPAPER SPEAKERS,[11] which would actually be a part of the wallpaper.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Alex https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Alex

webnrrd2k 6y ago

I think the real killer application of this would be as active sound cancelation for open-offices, also to remove driving noise from inside cars. I wonder if a large array of these in a fence could work to remove noise pollution from a house, e.g. one near a freeway or airport?