7 ms·

I know that OpenBSD is "opinionated" but I can't really accept that their opinion on bluetooth is "we don't support bluetooth", which otherwise seems essential,

I know that OpenBSD is "opinionated" but I can't really accept that their opinion on bluetooth is "we don't support bluetooth", which otherwise seems essential, at least to me, for any mobile device.

bluedays 6y ago
It seems like it does though? https://man.openbsd.org/OpenBSD-5.5/bluetooth.4 https://man.openbsd.org/OpenBSD-5.5/bluetooth.4 I'm not sure why the article says it doesn't support bluetooth.
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
  Notice that that's for OpenBSD 5.5; it was removed.
- spijdar 6y ago
  That's the man page for OpenBSD 5.5. Bump 5.5 up to any higher number and you'll get "not found". Bluetooth was removed around ~2014 in OpenBSD.
- dddddaviddddd 6y ago
  OpenBSD 5.5 was released in May 2014. The Bluetooth stack was removed later that year: http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20140729070721 http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20140729070721
liveranga 6y ago
It's not really philosophical, they just weren't happy with the Bluetooth stack they had (originally from netbsd I think) and no-one has written a new one yet. https://github.com/openbsd/src/commit/b8042ed98e3e7a691133b4fd8e91f61ba15a83ba https://github.com/openbsd/src/commit/b8042ed98e3e7a691133b4...
- LeoPanthera 6y ago
  It was removed in 2014! At this point, "not yet" surely must mean "we don't want it".
  - stretchcat 6y ago
    Do-ocracy. Just because none of those devs want it enough to implement it, doesn't mean they'd turn away somebody who did. If somebody wants it bad enough, they'll do it.
    - msla 6y ago
      > Do-ocracy. I love this word. I'm apparently behind the times, though: It's on Urban Dictionary and I love their example https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=do-ocracy https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=do-ocracy > “Jeez, why does Mary get to decide what everyone eats and when they work? Who put her in charge?” Older and wiser heads will say, “This is a do-ocracy. If you think you can do Mary’s job, and you want to, then get up there and do it. She’ll probably be relieved. If not, don’t be a jerk and make a big stink about it, or else she’ll stop working so hard and we won’t have anything to eat!” ... which is apparently taken from: https://communitywiki.org/wiki/DoOcracy https://communitywiki.org/wiki/DoOcracy ... which is another wiki I'll have to dive into.
  - emteycz 6y ago
    Why not 'nobody contributed it so far'?
  - blhack 6y ago
    Write it. As an openbsd user, I will say that bluetooth is pretty far down the list of things I care about.
    - Koshkin 6y ago
      > Write it. This is getting really old. Not all users are programmers.
- haecceity 6y ago
  What's wrong with bluetoothd?
  - jamiesonbecker 6y ago
    What's wrong with bluetooth in general? Essentially, it's an under-specified security nightmare. Of course, it's also pretty important for certain classes of devices.
    - throwawayboise 6y ago
      I've never had a bluetooth device that actually worked reliably. Granted, my experience is limited to mostly keyboards and mice. If the bluetooth isn't giving me issues, the battery is. No thanks. I'll stick with USB and wired devices.
      - stretchcat 6y ago
        My Bluetooth headphones have been pretty bulletproof since I started using them a few years ago. Battery life still lasts two or three weeks ay my usage levels too. But I only keep them paired to one device, and I understand most of the grief with these sorts of things comes with switching between hosts often.
        knorker 6y ago
        Oh, wow. I have NEVER heard of anyone where bluetooth has "just worked". Well, that's not true. People in the Apple bubble say that Apple devices work with Apple headphones. But that is it.
        gnud 6y ago
        My bluetooth headphones work well if I'm sitting still. They don't work if I'm walking. So I would say that bluetooth headphones don't work.
- ThinkBeat 6y ago
  I think it is better to leave it out until there is a solid implementation of it. Saves everyone a lot of frustration.
abrowne 6y ago
At least to you maybe, but I only use Bluetooth on my laptop for playing music to a speaker, which could I could replace with a long cable if I really wanted to (or some other kind of network player). On my phone, I first intentionally enabled bluetooth recently for my state's Covid tracing app.
jancsika 6y ago
I think their opinion is rather liberal-- simply, "Don't attempt to maintain dumpster fires, and be open source." It's an important commentary on bluetooth that it cannot be included in such a system. In that sense OpenBSD is a valuable filter, even if that makes it impractical to run on a laptop for your use case.
mixmastamyk 6y ago
Really? I've never used bluetooth, one of the first things I turn off in any device I come across. I do use wifi daily however.
- noisy_boy 6y ago
  With wireless headphones / earbuds becoming quite common, bluetooth for a laptop is less "optional" than it used to be.
  - mixmastamyk 6y ago
    That's another thing I don't use, any accessories that take batteries. My phone is the main exception.
colechristensen 6y ago
If the opinion is “don’t support wildly insecure things” I’m happy that somebody out there has that opinion. OpenBSD, its quality/security opinions, and the consequences aren’t for everyone, but they certainly don’t have to be. And it’s a laptop, lots of people almost never use bluetooth on a laptop. You might, I do sometimes, but it’s hardly essential.
- LeoPanthera 6y ago
  I think the claim that bluetooth is "wildly insecure" needs justification.
- adultSwim 6y ago
  This is why Qubes doesn't support Bluetooth. It breaks the virtualization security boundaries.
  - segfaultbuserr 6y ago
    Ah, really? Yeah, Bluetooth is not supported in Dom0, but I'm sure that you can assign the Bluetooth PCI-E adapter to a VM using IOMMU, can't you?
    - adultSwim 6y ago
      I'll try that, thanks. My recollection is that Qubes pulled out the Bluetooth packages from the Fedora repos but I haven't visited it in a while.
Jkvngt 6y ago
Bluetooth has unfixable security risks baked into the protocol, it's ideal for OpenBSD to ignore it.
mikem170 6y ago
I bought a little hardware bluetooth usb transceiver [0], I plug it in when I want the default sound to come out my usb speakers, it sticks out about a centimeter. I'm happy to make this trade-off, given how consistent and reliable OpenBSD is. Not a deal breaker for me. [0] https://amzn.com/B00ZYYPFHU https://amzn.com/B00ZYYPFHU

I know that OpenBSD is "opinionated" but I can't really accept that their opinion on bluetooth is "we don't support bluetooth", which otherwise seems essential, at least to me, for any mobile device.

bluedays 6y ago

It seems like it does though? https://man.openbsd.org/OpenBSD-5.5/bluetooth.4 https://man.openbsd.org/OpenBSD-5.5/bluetooth.4 I'm not sure why the article says it doesn't support bluetooth.

yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
Notice that that's for OpenBSD 5.5; it was removed.
spijdar 6y ago
That's the man page for OpenBSD 5.5. Bump 5.5 up to any higher number and you'll get "not found". Bluetooth was removed around ~2014 in OpenBSD.
dddddaviddddd 6y ago
OpenBSD 5.5 was released in May 2014. The Bluetooth stack was removed later that year: http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20140729070721 http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20140729070721

liveranga 6y ago

It's not really philosophical, they just weren't happy with the Bluetooth stack they had (originally from netbsd I think) and no-one has written a new one yet. https://github.com/openbsd/src/commit/b8042ed98e3e7a691133b4fd8e91f61ba15a83ba https://github.com/openbsd/src/commit/b8042ed98e3e7a691133b4...

LeoPanthera 6y ago
It was removed in 2014! At this point, "not yet" surely must mean "we don't want it".
- stretchcat 6y ago
  Do-ocracy. Just because none of those devs want it enough to implement it, doesn't mean they'd turn away somebody who did. If somebody wants it bad enough, they'll do it.
  - msla 6y ago
    > Do-ocracy. I love this word. I'm apparently behind the times, though: It's on Urban Dictionary and I love their example https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=do-ocracy https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=do-ocracy > “Jeez, why does Mary get to decide what everyone eats and when they work? Who put her in charge?” Older and wiser heads will say, “This is a do-ocracy. If you think you can do Mary’s job, and you want to, then get up there and do it. She’ll probably be relieved. If not, don’t be a jerk and make a big stink about it, or else she’ll stop working so hard and we won’t have anything to eat!” ... which is apparently taken from: https://communitywiki.org/wiki/DoOcracy https://communitywiki.org/wiki/DoOcracy ... which is another wiki I'll have to dive into.
- emteycz 6y ago
  Why not 'nobody contributed it so far'?
- blhack 6y ago
  Write it. As an openbsd user, I will say that bluetooth is pretty far down the list of things I care about.
  - Koshkin 6y ago
    > Write it. This is getting really old. Not all users are programmers.
haecceity 6y ago
What's wrong with bluetoothd?
- jamiesonbecker 6y ago
  What's wrong with bluetooth in general? Essentially, it's an under-specified security nightmare. Of course, it's also pretty important for certain classes of devices.
  - throwawayboise 6y ago
    I've never had a bluetooth device that actually worked reliably. Granted, my experience is limited to mostly keyboards and mice. If the bluetooth isn't giving me issues, the battery is. No thanks. I'll stick with USB and wired devices.
    - stretchcat 6y ago
      My Bluetooth headphones have been pretty bulletproof since I started using them a few years ago. Battery life still lasts two or three weeks ay my usage levels too. But I only keep them paired to one device, and I understand most of the grief with these sorts of things comes with switching between hosts often.
      - knorker 6y ago
        Oh, wow. I have NEVER heard of anyone where bluetooth has "just worked". Well, that's not true. People in the Apple bubble say that Apple devices work with Apple headphones. But that is it.
      - gnud 6y ago
        My bluetooth headphones work well if I'm sitting still. They don't work if I'm walking. So I would say that bluetooth headphones don't work.
ThinkBeat 6y ago
I think it is better to leave it out until there is a solid implementation of it. Saves everyone a lot of frustration.

abrowne 6y ago

At least to you maybe, but I only use Bluetooth on my laptop for playing music to a speaker, which could I could replace with a long cable if I really wanted to (or some other kind of network player). On my phone, I first intentionally enabled bluetooth recently for my state's Covid tracing app.

jancsika 6y ago

I think their opinion is rather liberal-- simply, "Don't attempt to maintain dumpster fires, and be open source." It's an important commentary on bluetooth that it cannot be included in such a system. In that sense OpenBSD is a valuable filter, even if that makes it impractical to run on a laptop for your use case.

mixmastamyk 6y ago

Really? I've never used bluetooth, one of the first things I turn off in any device I come across. I do use wifi daily however.

noisy_boy 6y ago
With wireless headphones / earbuds becoming quite common, bluetooth for a laptop is less "optional" than it used to be.
- mixmastamyk 6y ago
  That's another thing I don't use, any accessories that take batteries. My phone is the main exception.

colechristensen 6y ago

If the opinion is “don’t support wildly insecure things” I’m happy that somebody out there has that opinion. OpenBSD, its quality/security opinions, and the consequences aren’t for everyone, but they certainly don’t have to be. And it’s a laptop, lots of people almost never use bluetooth on a laptop. You might, I do sometimes, but it’s hardly essential.

LeoPanthera 6y ago
I think the claim that bluetooth is "wildly insecure" needs justification.
adultSwim 6y ago
This is why Qubes doesn't support Bluetooth. It breaks the virtualization security boundaries.
- segfaultbuserr 6y ago
  Ah, really? Yeah, Bluetooth is not supported in Dom0, but I'm sure that you can assign the Bluetooth PCI-E adapter to a VM using IOMMU, can't you?
  - adultSwim 6y ago
    I'll try that, thanks. My recollection is that Qubes pulled out the Bluetooth packages from the Fedora repos but I haven't visited it in a while.

Jkvngt 6y ago

Bluetooth has unfixable security risks baked into the protocol, it's ideal for OpenBSD to ignore it.

mikem170 6y ago

I bought a little hardware bluetooth usb transceiver [0], I plug it in when I want the default sound to come out my usb speakers, it sticks out about a centimeter. I'm happy to make this trade-off, given how consistent and reliable OpenBSD is. Not a deal breaker for me. [0] https://amzn.com/B00ZYYPFHU https://amzn.com/B00ZYYPFHU